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On July 18 2012 00:08 GhostyGhost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 23:55 Pasargadae wrote:On July 17 2012 22:12 Ragnarork wrote:On July 17 2012 22:03 Pasargadae wrote:On July 17 2012 21:56 Ragnarork wrote:On July 17 2012 21:54 setzer wrote:On July 17 2012 21:52 nkr wrote:
woah would've expected jaedong or flash to win, but now it seems jangbi or fantasy will be the last bw bonjwa This isn't SC2 where bonjwas are crowed every weekend. Nope, it's not like that in SC2. Though there's way more up and comer, and flukes than in BW. But please don't say silly things... Not counting tournaments, there have been 12 GSL seasons. Among those 12 seasons, there have been 7 separate champions. Out of the 12 possible golds, 8 of them belong to 3 individuals. How is this a silly point? Simple : there isn't any bonjwa in SC2 yet... LG-IM_MVP is (i think) the closest player to this status, but I wouldn't say so, him not being dominant enough. Taken from BW Liquipedia : A bonjwa is a player who dominates the scene for a long period of time. Though there are a few players that are above the other for sure (atm DRG, MVP are the two that comes to my mind), there isn't any bonjwa in SC2.... So you're saying because he doesn't have the explicit title of bonjwa? MVP was purely dominant for an entire year. He may not receive the accolade now, but he will be a bonjwa in the future. Boxer = case in point. Well, Bonjwa is also the progamer who is the most dominant of his "era." Of course, era's are loosely defined. But that generally seems to be why Jaedong is not a bonjwa. SC2 is a little different, the international scene (that is, outside of Korea) is far bigger. From the sheer number of tournaments, it might be harder to "DOMINATE" just because players aren't going to be in every major tourney. For the year of 2011, MVP won about 70 percent of his matches in Korea. He won 3 gsl titles (out of a possible 6), an MLG, a WCG, and Blizzcon. But really we're going to have to wait a couple of years to really understand how dominant this year was. And if MVP doesn't reach that level of dominance again, is 1 year of dominance enough to be considered a bonjwa?
As artosis said its much harder to dominate in sc2 as their is so many strategic plays to be made and the number of strategies are about 20-30x that of bw, so the likeliness of some one dominating sc2 is rather low as some player will always invent a new strategy and take a player out, where as bw is the same set strategies so it's unlikely that the dominant player will lose.
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On July 18 2012 00:12 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 00:09 Lightwip wrote:On July 18 2012 00:07 ne4aJIb wrote:On July 17 2012 23:35 jimbob615 wrote:
JD, July and Bisu are bonjwas. Just because some bureaucrats say they're not, doesn't mean they are not. google definition of bonjwa... Bonjwa definition is pretty subjective. That being said, now that Savior has no achievements, bonjwa is really just a synonym for "terran star." Thats not our fault... Remember when every thought Terran=weakest race?
I tend to write off anything before 2002 as pre-1.08 so I try to forget.
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^ Its also due to SC2 progamers being on a more even playing field.
Fantasy fighting!! Looking forward to an epic finals!! Maps sucks though compared to last season's finals.
Edit: About jaedong not being bonjwa.. I mostly agree with these statements. He showed weak performances in the dual finals against Flash. And went 0-2 in the PL finals.
But, It doesn't matter because Jaedong has the most proleague wins ever. <3
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Once Fantasy got Lasik for his eyes, he's been unstoppable... So the real question is this...
What did they put in Fanta's eyes? :D
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On July 17 2012 23:15 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 23:07 styleworks79 wrote:
As far as Fantasy and Jangbi being bonjwas, I doubt it due to their career comparisons to other bonjwas.
Most of us Koreans only considers Boxer, OOV, Nada, Jaedong, Flash, bisu, and July (savior was) as true bonjwa anyway. Erm. When did Jaedong, July and Bisu get added to the list.
I always disliked how JD gets always undervalued. I shall not argue for July and Bisu, but Jaedong had the second best elo rank. More than Nada, Boxer, Savior. His period of dominance was ok enough too.
Bonjwa is an obscure word, that has over exaggerated fanboy connotation. So if the raw numbers mean less than "a general consensus" what can you actually argue with?
I shall always consider him number two in terms of skill. Others are just those, who's contribution is enormous, but that just it.
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On July 18 2012 00:20 catabowl wrote:
Once Fantasy got Lasik for his eyes, he's been unstoppable... So the real question is this...
What did they put in Fanta's eyes? :D
They probably fixed whatever it was that caused him to play stupidly before.
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On July 18 2012 00:21 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 23:15 Plexa wrote:On July 17 2012 23:07 styleworks79 wrote:
As far as Fantasy and Jangbi being bonjwas, I doubt it due to their career comparisons to other bonjwas.
Most of us Koreans only considers Boxer, OOV, Nada, Jaedong, Flash, bisu, and July (savior was) as true bonjwa anyway. Erm. When did Jaedong, July and Bisu get added to the list. I always disliked how JD gets always undervalued. I shall not argue for July and Bisu, but Jaedong had the second best elo rank. More than Nada, Boxer, Savior. His period of dominance was ok enough too. Bonjwa is an obscure word, that has over exaggerated fanboy connotation. So if the raw numbers mean less than "a general consensus" what can you actually argue with?
If Bisu didn't play at the same time as JD, JD would be a bonjwa. PROBABLY Vice versa for Bisu.
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Sad for Flash 
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Poor Flash congrats to Fantasy
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To people who are arguing (or trolling, my scanner is broken nowadays) - here's the ultimate guide by sky_slasher to who the last bonjwa was:
+ Show Spoiler +
In other news - bITt.mAN has graced me with a preview of the writeup on today's series. That said, I've been the (blank and crooked) wall that he's been bouncing his ideas off, so if there's something wrong with it you know who to blame.
:chest beat:
Also read all of his TvT guide if you haven't (or just have read the first bit like I did), the predictions and playstyle analysis especially. I love me some indepth strategy analysis and TvT is the best arena for that... I am really looking forward to the writeup and so should you!
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Just watched G1 and G2
G1
Flash stubbornly goes into dropship mode fanta starsenses dropships around 5 times, 1 time it works.
Flash throws out his gas units for free, Fanta preserves them, prioriziting gas usage over gas spending, its not like you will farry all your PSI in 1 move in TvT, and its not SC2. So the fact that Flash PSI was like 15-30 bigger was completely shut down with Fanta dropship counter and positional play.
Point to note, Science Vessel usage in G1 about 5 or more tanks were saved. + for fanta
G2 was general concenpts repeated + better trades for fanta, and generally smarter play and better micro. He slacked on macro at some parts but because in TvT you cant farry your units in 1 move with Dropship play being shut down it didnt matter that much.
Flash loses by being stubborn despite having superior openings.
G3 NC
General feeling, Fanta reuses some of ideas he has shown in Proleaguie finals, Flash stubbornly refuses to acknowledge that his style is inferior and goes into tunnel mode macro mode with no flair.
Much worse semi-final than Jangbi-Zero. No nail-baiter 1 sided. But good TvT nonetheless however much less of a TvT than Bigfile.
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Fantasy has outdone Flash in terms of recent results, I don't know why people are actually shocked. SC2 fans new to Broodwar maybe?
4th OSL curse > Kongline lol
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On July 18 2012 00:25 GhostyGhost wrote:
If Bisu didn't play at the same time as JD, JD would be a bonjwa. PROBABLY Vice versa for Bisu.
Other than in the Arena MSL, neither player eliminated the other one from an individual league. You could say Jaedong would be the most successful individual league player if it were not for Flash as JD lost to Flash in 3 finals, but that would still only be speculation. As for dominance in general (e.g., overall win rate, PL win rate) it also doesn't make sense to say Bisu and Jaedong prevented each other from being the most dominant player as the vast majority of their games were against other players.
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those were the most shitty games that i've ever seen from flash, WTF he match fixed, or didn't care about losing or winning or what?
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On July 18 2012 00:41 ppshchik wrote:
Fantasy has outdone Flash in terms of recent results, I don't know why people are actually shocked. SC2 fans new to Broodwar maybe?
4th OSL curse > Kongline lol
The Kong line is dead. Yellow left, remember?
Kongs still only win against other Kongs though.
On July 18 2012 00:42 Sum41 wrote:
those were the most shitty games that i've ever seen from flash, WTF he match fixed, or didn't care about losing or winning or what?
SC2 maybe.
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On July 18 2012 00:42 Sum41 wrote:
those were the most shitty games that i've ever seen from flash, WTF he match fixed, or didn't care about losing or winning or what?
Game 3 he was caught off guard by Fantasy's wraiths. Games 1 and 2 were pretty close but he got outplayed as Fantasy out strategized him. bgx's above post summarizes it pretty well.
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Why can't people accept that Flash is inferior to Fantasy in TvT?
Fantasy TvT is much superior than Flash
Swallow that.
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On July 18 2012 00:46 fabiano wrote:
Why can't people accept that Flash is inferior to Fantasy in TvT?
Fantasy TvT is much superior than Flash
Swallow that.
In their current form, it's pretty clear yes. In the generalized form you're using, it's pretty clear that it's false.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8uuW5.jpg)
