I think CJ will take this. Their Zerg lineup will be too much for Khan. And I have to say that I`m writing this although I like Khan much more than CJ.
On January 08 2012 09:34 ShadeR wrote: This years Proleague is so good. First place and last place have changed so much. every team is really competitive.
haha yea, watch T8 yesterday and the coach looked POed. Poor Dong, never seen him get crushed and looked so confused before, poor sea and poor baby by lurkz Anyone know in how many hours till match begins? I missed KTs game yesterday cause i thought it started later then it did
On January 08 2012 09:34 ShadeR wrote: This years Proleague is so good. First place and last place have changed so much. every team is really competitive.
Except T8
Team 8 has only been consistently in last place since late round 1. Its sad, but I believe they'll rise to the challenge. They weren't called the 'dream team' for nothing.
Well...hoping it doesnt crash while I'm away, haha. If it breaks, someone PM me please. ^^ So I can offline the stream on TL so you dont tune in and look at my desktop rofl.
Horang2 takes his nat off two goons First tank out, Reality going to be moving out with ~6 marine and a tank 3 goons for Horang2 Vulture for Reality now too, mines done
Nat kicked in for Reality now, ebay being added More goons being pumped, first obs out 2 tanks, 6 marines and a vulture or two Horang2 pushing with his goons No seige mode yet Siege finishes Horang2 picks off BOTH TANKS
Reality tries to float up his 3rd CC, but Horang2 denies with his goons 2nd fact for Reality now starting Horang2 taking his 3rd now at 10, zealot production started, and a shuttle is out 2 tanks, a vulture and a bunker at Reality's high ground
Oh Horang2 you qtpie you <3 Reality scouts out the 3rd Citadel, forge, archives and stargate are up 4 tanks now at the high ground Reality giving away 2 vultures Going up to 3 facts
Horang2 pushes up to the 3rd Reality trying to float it up, tanks siege up, but the shuttle drops Goons focusing on the CC The CC goes down to DEEP red hp, but gets repaired Horang2 gets pushed out of the 3rd 3 more gates being added, 4 and arbiter tribunal is out
Reality sending vultures into the 3rd, one at a time using mine shenanigans, that 3 vultures got in, around 5 probes went down 6 facts total for Reality 12 gates for Horang2 How does he place them so well? DT being added into the mix Vultures going to snipe the probe being sent out to make Horang2's 4th expo
Horang2 floating 1700/1200 Its still going up, not he spends some of it Vultures being really annoying and picking off probes Reality using his scans to pick off the probes 128-157 Reality-Horang2
+1 attack done for toss ground Tons of zealots for orang2 0-1 for terran mech Horang2 almost maxed out, 182 Reality only 142 Arbiter recalls the zealots on top of the tanks Was that a firebat inside of the bunker? Horang2 is going for the bust, but gets pushed back Huge mine daebak though, takes out a few tanks and vultures Horang2 gaining tons of ground into Reality's nat
Horang2 is pushed back out, 88-127 supplies Reality-Horang2 after that engagement Vessels are out now Triple forge for Horang2, he's taken the 12.5 expo, and the 1 oclock nat 2 armories and an academy for Reality 1-2 for Reality's upgrades Lots of vultures trying to get into Horang2's 3rd, but are unable Vultures being annoying at 1 oclock Horang2, has a nexus warping in at 1 main and nat
Both players back up in supply now 142-186 Reality-Horang2 1-1-2 for Toss upgrades, and all 3 forges are spinning 4 cannons being warped in at 1 nat Horang2 194, Reality at 162 More gates being added
HUGE recall into the nat of Reality Storm on all of the scvs The drop is going to get cleaned up, but both armories and the academy get taken out Reality pushing out now though 149-155 Reality-Horang2 Tons of gates being made now at the 1 main Horang2 getting off nice storms, but he's sending in his army in small forces
2-2-2 for Toss 1-2 still only for the Terran Huge storms in the clumped up tanks Vultures being pumped Man those hydra, I mean tanks are getting split nicely vs the storms 90-115 supply Zealots are getting in up close and personal to the tanks, but more vultures come to reinfroce More zealots being streamed in All but one tank is left
Horang2 cleans up And has a 40 supply lead on top of Reality 65-103 2-2-3 for toss now Reality looking to push out again? Yes, towards 1 oclock But Horang2 catches him unseiged GG from Reality 1-0 CJ
On January 08 2012 12:31 Jackal03 wrote: horang2 outmacroed reality
STOP SAYING THIS GUYS!
Horang2 was slow to rebuild, had tons of unspent resources for most of the game...
Ugh.
Uhm, macro is about more than just spending your resources. Macro is about building more units. Which is what Horang2 did. His management was lacking, but his macro wasn't.
Reality lost because he didn't get a fourth while attacking. Also, he was slow to push and didn't target Horangee's expansions. FlaSh would have done all of those things. The difference between A-class and Bonjwa really.
This seems like a hopeless situation for Khan: CJ is going to send Hydra,Effort and some protoss next,and then if Khan sends both Stork and Jangbi,CJ sends Leta for a 5th set. And if they don`t send Stork and Jangbang...Well...There won`t be a 5th set
On January 08 2012 12:35 Renkaoru wrote: Reality lost because he didn't get a fourth while attacking. Also, he was slow to push and didn't target Horangee's expansions. FlaSh would have done all of those things. The difference between A-class and Bonjwa really.
On January 08 2012 12:39 Vuk_91 wrote: This seems like a hopeless situation for Khan: CJ is going to send Hydra,Effort and some protoss next,and then if Khan sends both Stork and Jangbi,CJ sends Leta for a 5th set. And if they don`t send Stork and Jangbang...Well...There won`t be a 5th set
As a side note: horang2 messed up the placement of the lower pylon in the 6 gateway clumps; he put the pylons right next to each other vertically, meaning he can't make goons from the middle gateway of the clump without getting "building exit is blocked". It should be like:
On January 08 2012 12:35 Renkaoru wrote: Reality lost because he didn't get a fourth while attacking. Also, he was slow to push and didn't target Horangee's expansions. FlaSh would have done all of those things. The difference between A-class and Bonjwa really.
On January 08 2012 12:31 Jackal03 wrote: horang2 outmacroed reality
STOP SAYING THIS GUYS!
Horang2 was slow to rebuild, had tons of unspent resources for most of the game...
Ugh.
despite that, he was able to aways keep troop count way above reality
So, analyse the reasons for that, instead of trying to claim it comes down to a lack of "macro".
Don't think anybody is saying Reality is bad at macro. I missed the very start, but from what I saw Horang2 had good macro. Which is not unusual. Horang2's macro is not his weakness. Macro isn't just resource management. Expansion timing, worker saturation, these things also...
On January 08 2012 12:31 Jackal03 wrote: horang2 outmacroed reality
STOP SAYING THIS GUYS!
Horang2 was slow to rebuild, had tons of unspent resources for most of the game...
Ugh.
despite that, he was able to aways keep troop count way above reality
So, analyse the reasons for that, instead of trying to claim it comes down to a lack of "macro".
Don't think anybody is saying Reality is bad at macro. I missed the very start, but from what I saw Horang2 had good macro. Which is not unusual. Horang2's macro is not his weakness. Macro isn't just resource management. Expansion timing, worker saturation, these things also...
Reality lost because he took a very early 3rd, well tried to, and Horang2 called it and attacked with 8 goons at a very nice timing.
Reality was on the back foot ever since that moment, and it showed in the food counter all game.
Overpool? From Effort Jangbi going for the usual toss fe I see Shine on the bench, why you no play him January? Effort plants down his nat hatch now, initial overlord has scouted it out
Jangbi scouts out Effort Has one cannon, his nexus and a gateway warping in Effort taking his 3rd expo at 11 nat Probes pulled off the line to stop a runby
2 zealots moving out to pressure, and get a bit of leverage outside the nat Both zealots moving towards the suspected 3rd of Effort Spire 1/2 way complete
Jangbi holding his two zealots at upper 1 oclock, headed towards Effort's nat First sair is out, citadel is wapring in, and archives is aswell Drones are pulled before any are killed Hatchery being focused down Both zealots hiding behind the mineral line One drone, two before they both die
Spire is up, hydra den morphing in, as is an evo DT is out, moving towards the 11 nat, overlord and sunken are there though, spores being made too Effort supply blocked, but gets back into it 3 gates being added for Jangbi Two DT's try to sneak into the nat, one of them gets taken out, the other one is one hit
Effort manages to catch a sair, and another Jangbi down to 5 sairs 6 gates total Another sair! 4 total Second evo and queens nest being added Lurker aspect is researched and are being morphed in Lings run into the nat, and snipe one cannon, the other is only down to its armor Lurkers finish, and the zealots are on hold position Effort gets two free spine volleys into the zealots Robotics coming up now Mismicro, one lurker goes down to zealots
Hive morphing in now 4 zealots get in the way of some lings Lurkers firing away at the gateway that is part of the wall Lots of lings chacing the zealots headed towards the 3rd 102-78 supply Effort splitting his scourge nicely +1 for sairs has been upgraded
On January 08 2012 12:31 Jackal03 wrote: horang2 outmacroed reality
STOP SAYING THIS GUYS!
Horang2 was slow to rebuild, had tons of unspent resources for most of the game...
Ugh.
despite that, he was able to aways keep troop count way above reality
So, analyse the reasons for that, instead of trying to claim it comes down to a lack of "macro".
Don't think anybody is saying Reality is bad at macro. I missed the very start, but from what I saw Horang2 had good macro. Which is not unusual. Horang2's macro is not his weakness. Macro isn't just resource management. Expansion timing, worker saturation, these things also...
Reality lost because he took a very early 3rd, well tried to, and Horang2 called it and attacked with 8 goons at a very nice timing.
Reality was on the back foot ever since that moment, and it showed in the food counter all game.
Or, you know, he was "outmacroed", whatever.
So then you're going to throw a fit at people using terms like outmacroed unless neither player attacks until one of them maxes?
I'm not trying to say that macro was the only reason why Horang2 won, or even that Horang2 managed his resources particularly well. That recall had a definite impact and Reality could not afford to let his push get slowed down after he took out Horang2's main army. Probably he should have planted mines and risked attacking Horang2's other bases in order to try to even out the economies.
But the reality is that at the end of the game, Horang2 was simply throwing units at Reality inefficiently. He won on unit production.
There are always a lot of subtleties that go into who wins and who loses. You can always point to reasons why one player's macro is stronger in a particular game. That doesn't change the fact that it IS stronger.
HT and goons being added to Jangbi's army now Defiler mound being added +2 attack for toss ground is done Jangbi taking his 3rd at 6 oclock, one ling spots it Lots of lings going to run into the nat! +1 carapace is done Both cannons go down, and cracklings do well, amazingly well vs goons Tons of drones being lost for Jangbi at the nat More lings flooding into the 3rd, going to force the cancel on the nexus
More lings flooding the nat Zealots being made fresh off Even more lings flooding in Jangbi looks like hes going to counter the nat Mutas are out, to snipe the HT All HT and observers are sniped EFFORT <3
100-81 supply Jangbi-Effort More lings going to flood the nat This is ridiculous Jangbi ranging the hatchery at the nat for simcity +1 air carapace has been done for awhile Defilers are out, dark swarm DAT WOO FAN
Jangbi taking his 3rd again at the same position as last time Still only +2 for Jangbi's army No HT for Jangbi's forces, the lurkers are ripping the zealots apart, and cracklings come to finish the job against the goons One archon being made to help out the goons, but more lings are getting into the nat Jangbi pushing the 11 nat one last time Nothing, and GG from Jangbi Effort takes set 2 2-0 for CJ
nice ling harass by effort i thought that he was going to lose to the big attack by jangbi as he was trading too many lings for probes/buildings but effort was able to snipe the observer which imo won him the game
On January 08 2012 13:01 Mortality wrote: Effort's play is really good, although I still see some holes in his form that I don't think existed at his peak.
shouldnt have been so emphatic on trying to get damage done...
the genius of this build was so subtle and well done... it lied in jangbi's assumption that effort had an early 4th already up
jangbi's greatest fault started with haphazard sair production he didn't even end up scouting the 11 oclock main - right into effort's hand all jb needed to do was rally to his third, get it up and get an early 4th. bisu style.
On January 08 2012 13:02 Xiphos wrote: I would criticize JB for playing sloppy but Effort really played this game beautifully. As a Zerg, I shed a tear.
That game was won on intelligence! Backstabs. armies in the dark. Jangbi had no way to know whats up until he moved for the counter Effort controlled that game well
another typical game by Jangbi. shitty corsair control and shitty game decisions. No need to attack with 2 DTs he saw spore sunken. Last attack also wtf wait 8 seconds for templars to storm lurkers then attack if you're going to try take down the expo.
anyway great game from effort, incredible game sense sending in 2 groups of lings at protoss nat. U MAD? PROTOSS you gonna attack or defend
disappointed in Jangbi... he has the mechanics but he just lacks so much big game management decisions.
On January 08 2012 13:00 KenNage wrote: jesus christ, i guess that the OSL only was only an ilusion :C
it's the osl champion curse.
I think the curse was broken some time ago now.
The OSL curse was that a champion does not make it out of the Ro16 the next season. Which happened (almost?) every OSL for many years after Boxer. I think July was the first to break the curse.
On January 08 2012 13:05 pyrogenetix wrote: another typical game by Jangbi. shitty corsair control and shitty game decisions. No need to attack with 2 DTs he saw spore sunken. Last attack also wtf wait 8 seconds for templars to storm lurkers then attack if you're going to try take down the expo.
anyway great game from effort, incredible game sense sending in 2 groups of lings at protoss nat. U MAD? PROTOSS you gonna attack or defend
disappointed in Jangbi... he has the mechanics but he just lacks so much big game management decisions.
Seeing him play like this makes me wonder how he managed to win the last osl
On January 08 2012 13:05 pyrogenetix wrote: disappointed in Jangbi... he has the mechanics but he just lacks so much big game management decisions.
i disagree on this part. effort actually capitalized on jangbi's strong game sense - the realtivity put more pressure and urgency into jb's play and right into effort's hand. thats the genius of effort.
I think this is just what Zerg needs, a revolution in ZvP. I like what Effort did here, mass lings + turtle simcity into hive tech. It's a pain to see Zerg lose game after game going hydralisk every single time and getting ripped to shreds by good storms. Jangbi lost, but that was a nice demonstration of the power of the swarm by Effort. Recommended.
On January 08 2012 13:05 pyrogenetix wrote: another typical game by Jangbi. shitty corsair control and shitty game decisions. No need to attack with 2 DTs he saw spore sunken. Last attack also wtf wait 8 seconds for templars to storm lurkers then attack if you're going to try take down the expo.
anyway great game from effort, incredible game sense sending in 2 groups of lings at protoss nat. U MAD? PROTOSS you gonna attack or defend
disappointed in Jangbi... he has the mechanics but he just lacks so much big game management decisions.
Seeing him play like this makes me wonder how he managed to win the last osl
it's crazy because he was slumping for aaaaaages before that... i thought he was on the road to retirement. really goes to show how much momentum/confidence helped him.
On January 08 2012 13:05 pyrogenetix wrote: another typical game by Jangbi. shitty corsair control and shitty game decisions. No need to attack with 2 DTs he saw spore sunken. Last attack also wtf wait 8 seconds for templars to storm lurkers then attack if you're going to try take down the expo.
anyway great game from effort, incredible game sense sending in 2 groups of lings at protoss nat. U MAD? PROTOSS you gonna attack or defend
disappointed in Jangbi... he has the mechanics but he just lacks so much big game management decisions.
Seeing him play like this makes me wonder how he managed to win the last osl
He has the mechanics and probably was able to practice for one match up at a time, but in PL when he gets sent out to play vs players he didn't prepare for he just doesn't seem to be able to make the right moves when he needs to. Against someone like Effort losing those 2 corsairs in the beginning was already enough to cement his loss. Effort has a very clear gameplan whereas Jangbi keeps playing reactionary. Effort sent lings to his nat and then immediately followed up a group to his 3rd. Jangbi didn't even see it coming and sent his entire army to save his nat. Just things like that really show you how clueless Jangbi is.
On January 08 2012 13:00 KenNage wrote: jesus christ, i guess that the OSL only was only an ilusion :C
Have some faith and look beyond results o.o
i look beyond the results, ive watched every game and he didnt impress me at all :c
Effort played really non-standard, it must've caught Jangbi totally off-guard. I think this game emphasised how good Effort is rather than Jangbi being in bad shape or anything.
On January 08 2012 13:14 Lebesgue wrote: I haven't seen Turn's TvZ; let's see if it is any good
Jaedong vs Turn last years WL? Thats the only one I can think of Was really epic if I remember correctly Hydra's overlord scouting incorrectly, as will his drone scout Going to take his nat, before pool
On January 08 2012 13:10 Renkaoru wrote: I think this is just what Zerg needs, a revolution in ZvP. I like what Effort did here, mass lings + turtle simcity into hive tech. It's a pain to see Zerg lose game after game going hydralisk every single time and getting ripped to shreds by good storms. Jangbi lost, but that was a nice demonstration of the power of the swarm by Effort. Recommended.
Except this is not a revolution. In fact there was a period last season in the middle of Bisu's PvZ murder rage that this style of fast third fast hive turtle ZvP was used extensively. The philosophy of Efforts build relied on 2 things, 1.map knowledge and knowing his spots, and 2.metametagaming Jangbi. He knows Jangbi will know what he is doing, thats why he let that prob linger in the base long enough to suspect a fast third. But he was clever enough to reveal just the necessary amount of information to put Jangbi in doubt, all the time controlling the map with speedlings lurkers and overlord so Jangbi remained in the dark. Jangbi never knew whats up until that ling attack on his natural. By then, effort had his plan in place and it was a matter of time before he overwhelmed Jangbi, despite Jangbi's commendable performance!
On January 08 2012 13:10 Renkaoru wrote: I think this is just what Zerg needs, a revolution in ZvP. I like what Effort did here, mass lings + turtle simcity into hive tech. It's a pain to see Zerg lose game after game going hydralisk every single time and getting ripped to shreds by good storms. Jangbi lost, but that was a nice demonstration of the power of the swarm by Effort. Recommended.
Except this is not a revolution. In fact there was a period last season in the middle of Bisu's PvZ murder rage that this style of fast third fast hive turtle ZvP was used extensively. The philosophy of Efforts build relied on 2 things, 1.map knowledge and knowing his spots, and 2.metametagaming Jangbi. He knows Jangbi will know what he is doing, thats why he let that prob linger in the base long enough to suspect a fast third. But he was clever enough to reveal just the necessary amount of information to put Jangbi in doubt, all the time controlling the map with speedlings lurkers and overlord so Jangbi remained in the dark. Jangbi never knew whats up until that ling attack on his natural. By then, effort had his plan in place and it was a matter of time before he overwhelmed Jangbi, despite Jangbi's commendable performance!
I think that style was different, zergs were trying to get both a fast fourth and hive at the same time. Here, effort stayed on 3 bases for a long time while actually building units; it's a style I've seen before, but it's pretty rare I think.
On January 08 2012 13:00 KenNage wrote: jesus christ, i guess that the OSL only was only an ilusion :C
Have some faith and look beyond results o.o
i look beyond the results, ive watched every game and he didnt impress me at all :c
Effort played really non-standard, it must've caught Jangbi totally off-guard. I think this game emphasised how good Effort is rather than Jangbi being in bad shape or anything.
yeah i think so, but it worries me cuz he lost his last 3 games and he hadnt played that well in any of them, this might hurt jangbis confidence since hes like a momentum player, i hope not, because im not sure he can handle another never ending slump :C
Hydra has his lings in the mineral line, and Hydra gets a scout off on everything Stim is done for Turn Hydra took out a few scvs, at the cost of about 8? lings Comats being added 4 medics, and 10 ish marines moving out for Turn Hydra den being added
3 sukens morphing in for Hydra in front of his nat Mutas are out now Both units fly over top of one another, Hydra gets a free small group of MnM 51-45 Turn-Hydra Hydra taking a 3rd at 1 main, scv has scouted it out
literally any other terran on khan would've been a better choice. even sharp and always once a t blocks the muta harass, the game goes impossibly in favor for T
Hydra muta microing against the MnM force Loses 2 mutas without shooting off a volley =/ More mutas being lost Lurkerling are out now, moving towards the 1 main Hatchery is getting fired away at The Mutaling force is NOT GOING TO BE ENOUGH All mutaling are down Stop lurkers, Many marines are dead from that, but the hatchery went down
excellent, excellent use of lurkers in random places pre-vessel from Hydra. Turn can't lose marines like this, he needs that HUGE push from 5rax else he's gonna start losing...
One overlord gets picked off Lurkers, getting more free marines Hydra going to take the 5 oclock main now Lurkers on the run from the marines this time, but Hydras lurkers are being so effective Turn's MnM force almost gets sandwiched Fact and starport are up now
Tanks firing away at the lurkers now Two lurkers go down Vessel is out now, Hive is done for Hydra, defiler mound is done Hydra loses another lurker, down to 4 Overlord dies, and Hydra is supply blocked momentarily Turn scans the 5 main, and knows about the base Lurkerling force is going to engage the Bio tank There is a defiler there Tanks are out of position, but Hydra doesn't pick any of them off
Hydra gets his forces under the darkswarm Two lurkers are ontop of the 5 oclock ramp Turn is double the supply of Hydra now, 115-53 Hydra has a hatchery morphing in at 1 oclock now, small MnM force bieng sent to kill it off CC in main for Turn Defiler gets irradiated, gets the swarm off at 5 oclock Turn kills off the 1 oclock hatch Oh Hydra =/
Vultures with mines are out now Two lurkers being sent up to 1 oclock, get picked off 5 oclock is getting shelled at, but two fo the 3 tanks get killed off Turn has 11.5 expo, and is building a CC at 1 oclock main Two lurkers were at the choke of 11.5 though +1 carapace has been done for awhile for Hydra All raxes lifed
On January 08 2012 13:26 kingalexxx wrote: Hydra is being too hesitant. He needs to play more aggresively
he has NO units to be aggressive with.
He could've easily taken those 3 tanks that wandered off before but he hesitated and lost his chance
They didn't wander off too far, if he over extended himself, his army would've kbeen crushed then and there Turn pressuring 5 oclock Vultures get in, and try and pick off one defiler +2 carapace done Turn keeps on reinforcing 5 oclock 4 more vessels come out of no where, and Turn has a fleet of 6
Eraser on the drones at 5 oclock This is disgusting to watch Come on Hydra =/ Start winning ZvT's Lots of drones die to that irradiate 154-64 in favor of Turn All lurkers dead at 5 oclock Hydra drying to take 5 nat, but 5 is breached
On January 08 2012 13:26 kingalexxx wrote: Hydra is being too hesitant. He needs to play more aggresively
he has NO units to be aggressive with.
He could've easily taken those 3 tanks that wandered off before but he hesitated and lost his chance
They didn't wander off too far, if he over extended himself, his army would've kbeen crushed then and there Turn pressuring 5 oclock Vultures get in, and try and pick off one defiler +2 carapace done Turn keeps on reinforcing 5 oclock 4 more vessels come out of no where, and Turn has a fleet of 6
Sacrificing a few lings for 3 tanks won't get your army crushed. He had enough time to get at least 2 of them
Hydra drops some cracklings into one of Hydra's 4 mining bases, but its highly ineffective +1 attack done for the mech Oh never mind, Turn has 9 oclock too, 5 bases to 2.1 100 supply lead for Turn
Hydra ZvT so overhyped, i dont even remember if he has gone lair at least once in all his matches. i knew turn will dominate. his "godly" muta micro doesnt work in cross positions.
On January 08 2012 13:33 insanet wrote: Hydra ZvT so overhyped, i dont even remember if he has gone lair at least once in all his matches. i knew turn will dominate.
what?
this all snowballed from hydra losing his entire army and third base to 5 rax +1
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