"All out of individual leagues, all in to proleague?"
Today, spotlight will be on free's match in the proleague.
On the 16th, free fell out of PDPop MSL by going 1W2L in Group B. The next day, free lost to fantasy in Bacchus OSL, which effectively eliminated him from his group. Amongst those that qualified for both of the current individual leagues, free became the first to be eliminated from both.
His current woes have been somewhat foreseen by others. Free's victory-ride in proleague round 1 came to an abrupt halt in round 2. He opened round 2 with a loss to Sea on November the 29th and fell into his current slump. Although he defeated Hiya on his next match, his gameplay was far from satisfactory. The next two matches against s2 of SKT and great of Khan both resulted losses and further led to his team's losses.
With their major players in sudden downfall, Woongjin has not won a single match in round 2. Woongjin managed to take their matches against MBC, Hwaseung, and SKT into ace matches, but they came out without a single win out of the three. They lost 1-4 to Samsung and got demolished 0-4 by ACE.
Woongjin Stars is due up against the recently surging KT Rolster squad. Needless to say, the spotlight will be on whether free can earn a valuable win for his team.
Coach Lee of Woongjin said that "although it is regrettable that free was eliminated from individual leagues, we wish he can gather himself in the proleague."
Winners of their last two, KT Rolster will soon challenge the teams in the middle ranks for potential playoff spots.
KT recently escaped the bottom two ranks by defeating ACE 4-1 and SKT 4-2. Their record stands at 6W9L.
Their next opponent is Woongjin Stars. Woongjin finished 2nd after round 1 with a respectable record of 7W2L, but fell into a miserable 5-game losing streak in round 2 and now stand at 7W7L. If KT can defeat Woongjin, the two teams will be separated by only half-game and the door will be open for KT to join the middle ranks.
The key to victory for KT will be their Zerg line. Woongjin's main strength is their Zerg line of Zero, Crazy-Hydra and Neo.G_Soulkey, so the possibility of ZvZ is very high. KT is fielding Protoss players quite often this season, but they are a level below the Woongjin Zergs. It is therefore crucial that Action or Hoejja each add a win to KT's score.
Will KT extend Woongjin's losing streak to 6? We shall find out.
I believe that soulkey is a zerg. If piano starts crying after one loss, i don't think he wants to lose again. I want to say that Flash will enter a slump, but i think he was just being arrogant in the MSL.
I believe that soulkey is a zerg. If piano starts crying after one loss, i don't think he wants to lose again. I want to say that Flash will enter a slump, but i think he was just being arrogant in the MSL.
I believe that soulkey is a zerg. If piano starts crying after one loss, i don't think he wants to lose again. I want to say that Flash will enter a slump, but i think he was just being arrogant in the MSL.
already fixed.
and a man can dream... a man can dream...
oh and Tempest,HoeJJa Britney and flying are in the Dream League,so I don't think they'll get much time in ProLeague.
On December 19 2010 12:29 Zona wrote: KTFlash vs a sliding Stars...
It's crazy how much Stars has fallen in the standings since R1.
Well at least one team is breaking their losing streak tonight.
Except KT isn't on a losing streak!
With how Stars is slumping, looking forward to KT taking this victory. Want to see : Stats vs. Zero, Flash vs. Free/Soulkey, Action vs. Really, Anyppi.
Looking at Free's current performance and the overwhelming lack of standout rookies from Stars, this would turn ugly for them especially since KT might have gotten their shit together after beating SKT.
Hope not because Stars is always a cool team, just Free/Zero always underperform at the worst times.
On December 19 2010 12:29 Zona wrote: KTFlash vs a sliding Stars...
It's crazy how much Stars has fallen in the standings since R1.
Well at least one team is breaking their losing streak tonight.
Except KT isn't on a losing streak!
Yikes you're right...FBB was creamed so badly that day my traumatized mind immediately pushed it out of my memories...
I do think KT will take this match. Stars has lost whatever mojo they had. I wonder though if we will see ForGG/Never(winanotherstarleague) show some of his past strength.
Thanks to OpticalShot for translating.
"It is therefore crucial that Action or Hoejja each add a win to KT's score."
Hoejja??? Hmm...against a normal opponent I would say the chance is pretty low. Against Stars? Hmm...
Zero destroys the 2 cannons at Violet's natural with hydras, Violet initially holds with zealots. Zero is back with more, Violet used 1 storm from his only HT out right now.
storm done - one storm on the hydra bunched up against the front door more speedzealots are out from violet's 4? new gates and the few remaining hydra retreat for now - a lot more on the way though, and the 7 new zealots are surrounded
a dt once again is among the OL-less hydra though!
Violet runs his zealots around in Zero's main while sending HT to storm at the front. Overall Violet is playing with a lot of cunning, not something I've noticed about his play before.
Violet pushes zero's 3rd with a sizable army. Gets good storms off. Dragoons all alive, zealot reinforcements arrive. Zero reinforcing hydras but it doesn't look to be enough to save the base.
If flash loses in a TvT today I will officially say hes slumping in TvT.If he loses in the other match ups then I will buy a muffin and eat it and then cry.
On December 19 2010 13:25 BLinD-RawR wrote: If flash loses in a TvT today I will officially say hes slumping in TvT.If he loses in the other match ups then I will buy a muffin and eat it and then cry.
yesterday was misleading as he isn't so hot at TvZ this season either.
I'd say that Zero's current ZvZ is still good, but his ZvP and ZvT are both 40% in the last 10 games. That's simply not the ZerO we've come to expect at all. He's playing far below his best.
The most confusing part, the part that makes me actually suspicious, was when zero let those zealots in his base, and then let them stay alive for so long even though two control groups of hydras were in the area. Then he let all of those hydras get stormed all the way to death despite having moved his drones to avoid getting stormed. What. Where was his focus? It's hard to believe he wasn't watching that battle, what exactly could he have thought more important at that time?
Maybe I'm a little paranoid now because of the match-fixing scandal, and I don't even have another theory other than "zero played suspiciously bad", it's just that that play from zero was so uncharacteristic not only of zero but of progamers in general. Even the worst progamers dodge storms.
On December 19 2010 13:27 integral wrote: The most confusing part, the part that makes me actually suspicious, was when zero let those zealots in his base, and then let them stay alive for so long even though two control groups of hydras were in the area. Then he let all of those hydras get stormed all the way to death despite having moved his drones to avoid getting stormed. What. Where was his focus? It's hard to believe he wasn't watching that battle, what exactly could he have thought more important at that time?
Maybe I'm a little paranoid now because of the match-fixing scandal, and I don't even have another theory other than "zero played suspiciously bad", it's just that that play from zero was so uncharacteristic not only of zero but of progamers in general. Even the worst progamers dodge storms.
whatev, raised a red flag for me
Moving the drones through the storm wasn't great play. But the zealots stayed alive because Violet was running them around randomly, which Zero probably didn't expect... people normally try and attack stuff with their units.
On December 19 2010 13:27 integral wrote: The most confusing part, the part that makes me actually suspicious, was when zero let those zealots in his base, and then let them stay alive for so long even though two control groups of hydras were in the area. Then he let all of those hydras get stormed all the way to death despite having moved his drones to avoid getting stormed. What. Where was his focus? It's hard to believe he wasn't watching that battle, what exactly could he have thought more important at that time?
Maybe I'm a little paranoid now because of the match-fixing scandal, and I don't even have another theory other than "zero played suspiciously bad", it's just that that play from zero was so uncharacteristic not only of zero but of progamers in general. Even the worst progamers dodge storms.
whatev, raised a red flag for me
Moving the drones through the storm wasn't great play. But the zealots stayed alive because Violet was running them around randomly, which Zero probably didn't expect... people normally try and attack stuff with their units.
Yeah Violet was the weird one there. He had 5 zealots in Zero's base, but did'nt do anything except run around in a circle. Maybe it was just to distract till his surprise attack with the templars?
On December 19 2010 13:27 integral wrote: The most confusing part, the part that makes me actually suspicious, was when zero let those zealots in his base, and then let them stay alive for so long even though two control groups of hydras were in the area. Then he let all of those hydras get stormed all the way to death despite having moved his drones to avoid getting stormed. What. Where was his focus? It's hard to believe he wasn't watching that battle, what exactly could he have thought more important at that time?
Maybe I'm a little paranoid now because of the match-fixing scandal, and I don't even have another theory other than "zero played suspiciously bad", it's just that that play from zero was so uncharacteristic not only of zero but of progamers in general. Even the worst progamers dodge storms.
whatev, raised a red flag for me
Moving the drones through the storm wasn't great play. But the zealots stayed alive because Violet was running them around randomly, which Zero probably didn't expect... people normally try and attack stuff with their units.
Yeah Violet was the weird one there. He had 5 zealots in Zero's base, but did'nt do anything except run around in a circle. Maybe it was just to distract till his surprise attack with the templars?
Yeah, pretty sure that's what was going on. The announcers were making a big deal of going back and forth between Zero's base and Violet's army approaching Zero's front.
first sair out and shooting ol's SK gets a slow OL right into stat's main and sees all the tech, nice, including the fresh new archives and the spinning core
a new sair out and shooting that OL - his sacrifice will not be forgotten (unless SK loses of course)
the usual den/hatch wall at the nat done, evo/hatch/sunken still morphing at the 3rd
dt heads out with a few zealots towards SK's nat, back off as they see the forces heading out - the DT stays behind though, watching the entrance 5 sairs gathered now?
pylon goes up at 10, scourge sees it - and immediately 7 lings appear and destroy the probe that placed it - 2 zealots arrive to protect the pylon, 1 ling burrows at the expo spot and 4 back off
Yummm... I love banana milk. No, it doesn't have anything to do with the match. Soulkey's burrow upgrade is paying dividends in both scouting and threatening HT's.
DT heads to 2 and sees the hatch there - heads past it and hides in a corner though now the drones are being maynarded
hydra backing off from stats' ball moving out
actually SK's econ is probably not as good as it could be since he turned out a lot of hydra earlier than the usual timing and didn't try to bust with them
the hidden dt at the corner of 2 is revealed, nets 5+ drone kills
at the same time stats attacks 3, SK is very slow to respond and his incoming lurker/hydra is stormed to oblivion!
CRAZY STORMS most of Soulkey's army melt. Soulkey's 4th min-only is wiped by a single DT which has 14 kills now. 15 then it dies. Soulkey's 3rd is destroyed by zealots.
Stats running his corsairs around sniping a few ovies. Stats successfully snipes Soulkey's 3rd (well, 4th in terms of map shape) with zealots while defending his own 3rd with sick storms.
Stats really focusing on disallowing Soulkey from having 4 bases. Soulkey spinning lings around trying to get small gains but Stats is reacting relatively well.
On December 19 2010 13:49 MountainDewJunkie wrote: loses shuttle, reaver, 2 templar for about 7 drones.
not worth it.
At that point it was like 3base vs 3base, taking out an entire expo's mining is definitely worth it. (Obviously it could have been more worth it, but whatever).
On December 19 2010 13:49 MountainDewJunkie wrote: loses shuttle, reaver, 2 templar for about 7 drones.
not worth it.
At that point it was like 3base vs 3base, taking out an entire expo's mining is definitely worth it. (Obviously it could have been more worth it, but whatever).
I agree with synapse. He could definitely afford a trade like that just to keep SK's mining down by a base.
This has NOT been a good day. I must still be sleeping. Which would only make things worse - dreaming about TL and my favorite teams losing one by one is a nightmare!
On December 19 2010 14:07 Holgerius wrote: Ugh, so tired from all the whiskey I had tonight. I want to sleep so badly, but I also want to see Flash play. =/
He might end up not playing :0 Maybe defeating SKT was like +10000 exp, level up 20 times for KT.
Frog adding an ebay - but I don't think it'll matter
Frog pulls his 6 rines and scvs to surround Flying's elevated units - manages to kill most of them but now his micro screws up and he loses most of his rines just 3 rines 1 tank left to defend
swanized 12:15:24 AM XD 12:15:33 AM he was flying high flamewheel 12:15:44 AM Shot down by turrets and SCVs man. swanized 12:15:42 AM but you should never say never
On December 19 2010 14:19 Holgerius wrote: There is no doubt whatsoever that Stars are going to lose this. Question is, will they be able to take a game?
people who call slump would say that they could take a game off flash.
On December 19 2010 14:19 Holgerius wrote: There is no doubt whatsoever that Stars are going to lose this. Question is, will they be able to take a game?
people who call slump would say that they could take a game off flash.
On December 19 2010 14:19 BLinD-RawR wrote: come on Flash vs free please!!!
On December 19 2010 14:19 Holgerius wrote: There is no doubt whatsoever that Stars are going to lose this. Question is, will they be able to take a game?
people who call slump would say that they could take a game off flash.
really's scvs flee from 7.5 - Really clears out Flash's tanks there but sends the scvs back towards 7.5 where Flash has 3 goliaths ready to pick off another slew of scvs...
really adding a 4th CC at 2.5 - flash's scvs see it
Really's tanks getting closer to Flash's main - Flash with 3 dropships on really's 7.5 base... scvs pulled - really sieging up at the bottom of the ramp too
On December 19 2010 14:43 night terrors wrote: Really in the lead?
Not by a long shot :\ He just got a base full of scvs killed, flash is taking his 4th while really doesnt have any ground to take his other main, flash is in the lead by a long way
Flash expoint at 3.5 as well. Thats ridiculous, 4 expos in about 3 minutes. Fortunately since Really is too busy trying to deflect drops he couldn't push during that timing.
Really's decision to hold the middle of the map and try to defend from drops with wraiths did not particularly pan out. He had no map control and no dropship fleet of his own, but he did have the middle... throughout the whole game... and that counted for something... right?
I feel bad for Stars... but I'm so glad Flash came back in that set so convincingly. I was so nervous at the beginning. Please Flash, let's scout better and not give me a heart attack
On December 19 2010 14:49 moopie wrote: That was such a sloppy start by Flash. Its not like him to get wrecked by a 1-basing terran. Fortunately the rest of his game was good.
GJ KT :D
He 14cced. I'd think that if Really wasn't so terrible he could've ended it at that point, his build was pretty cool.
On December 19 2010 14:56 underxb wrote: Flash was trying to make a statement without ending the game immediately.....
He was still very Mad about the MSL.....
like i said before he wanted to do the build that he couldn't do in his MSL games.
It was pretty risky for him to do that. Too arrogant, and that is also the reason he was gone from MSL.... Flash, learn to control your cocky mentality..... You will be a better player.....
Really didn't exploit the fact that he has the center....There was a window he could go all in and take out flash when he over expanded....
On December 19 2010 14:56 underxb wrote: Flash was trying to make a statement without ending the game immediately.....
He was still very Mad about the MSL.....
like i said before he wanted to do the build that he couldn't do in his MSL games.
It was pretty risky for him to do that. Too arrogant, and that is also the reason he was gone from MSL.... Flash, learn to control your cocky mentality..... You will be a better player.....
Really didn't exploit the fact that he has the center....There was a window he could go all in and take out flash when he over expanded....
but didn't really have his main harassed the whole time Flash was expanding?
you're telling flash that he will be a better player?lol he rarely BMs and that BM bit him in the ass,so of course he's pissed,you need the closure if you want to focus properly.
On December 19 2010 14:56 underxb wrote: Flash was trying to make a statement without ending the game immediately.....
He was still very Mad about the MSL.....
like i said before he wanted to do the build that he couldn't do in his MSL games.
It was pretty risky for him to do that. Too arrogant, and that is also the reason he was gone from MSL.... Flash, learn to control your cocky mentality..... You will be a better player.....
Really didn't exploit the fact that he has the center....There was a window he could go all in and take out flash when he over expanded....
but didn't really have his main harassed the whole time Flash was expanding?
you're telling flash that he will be a better player?lol he rarely BMs and that BM bit him in the ass,so of course he's pissed,you need the closure if you want to focus properly.
You might be right. I could be right too.
Too risky to expand like that... I know he wants to finish the build and make a statement. Consider that made and move on....
A better player consists of skill and manner... He has the skill but he needs to improve on the manner....He said "NO way he would lose in MSL" Did you watch his interview before MSL? What happened to him in MSL Ro32? He lost twice in a roll....
On December 19 2010 14:56 flamewheel wrote: Changing icons randomly is bad ;;
Your accusation is offensive. I change icons deterministically based on team performance.
translation: I cheer for whichever team's doing well.
No, I cheer for Flash (and whichever team I like better when he's not playing), but I refuse to acknowledge the rest of the team when they play like they did in R1.
On December 19 2010 14:56 flamewheel wrote: Changing icons randomly is bad ;;
Your accusation is offensive. I change icons deterministically based on team performance.
translation: I cheer for whichever team's doing well.
No, I cheer for Flash (and whichever team I like better when he's not playing), but I refuse to acknowledge the rest of the team when they play like they did in R1.
You don't deserve to wear the tag. You've got no confidence in the team even when they hit a bad run, and that means you aren't actually a fan. You're the ultimate fairweather supporter and your KT tag means so little in lieu of that.
WTF. Watched Really vs Flash. "O RLY", Really? O_o Here to lose was more difficult than to win. -___- It's obviously your mistake rather than Flash's doing something outstanding - he did the only things that could get him back in the game and you've let him do this.
On December 19 2010 18:24 _Quasar_ wrote: WTF. Watched Really vs Flash. "O RLY", Really? O_o Here to lose was more difficult than to win. -___- It's obviously your mistake rather than Flash's doing something outstanding - he did the only things that could get him back in the game and you've let him do this.
Actually after the initial wraith harass he couldn't do much. While the vultures did very well, the wraiths weren't worth their price since flash reacted very well to them. After that, Flash had an econ advantage, and Really's nat was late. When Flash started overexpending later, Really was too busy dealing with drop harass (in his 3rd and then his main) to be aggressive. Aside from the opening, Flash did play this beautifully.
On December 19 2010 15:57 underxb wrote: A better player consists of skill and manner... He has the skill but he needs to improve on the manner....He said "NO way he would lose in MSL" Did you watch his interview before MSL? What happened to him in MSL Ro32? He lost twice in a roll....
You are saying that Flash should improve his manners? Flash? Seriously? Did you even read any other interview with him? Get some bigger perspective and don't judge him just from one sentence.
On December 19 2010 23:04 _Quasar_ wrote: Come on, even some Flash's fans say that he is thinking far too much of himself... -__- Isnt that an indicator. =__=
He's a good player but imho this particular season his play and results don't pair with his statements and behaviour. He plays just... normally.
Do you mind naming them and quoting them? Then we can talk if it indicate something.
On December 19 2010 14:56 underxb wrote: Flash was trying to make a statement without ending the game immediately.....
He was still very Mad about the MSL.....
like i said before he wanted to do the build that he couldn't do in his MSL games.
It was pretty risky for him to do that. Too arrogant, and that is also the reason he was gone from MSL.... Flash, learn to control your cocky mentality..... You will be a better player.....
Really didn't exploit the fact that he has the center....There was a window he could go all in and take out flash when he over expanded....
but didn't really have his main harassed the whole time Flash was expanding?
you're telling flash that he will be a better player?lol he rarely BMs and that BM bit him in the ass,so of course he's pissed,you need the closure if you want to focus properly.
You might be right. I could be right too.
Too risky to expand like that... I know he wants to finish the build and make a statement. Consider that made and move on....
A better player consists of skill and manner... He has the skill but he needs to improve on the manner....He said "NO way he would lose in MSL" Did you watch his interview before MSL? What happened to him in MSL Ro32? He lost twice in a roll....
Homework for you: go read all the interviews he did in 2010 before you even consider Flash to be arrogant.
If anything, he has shown that he is very level-headed. That is the mentality that allowed him to be so dominant in 2009-2010. Ironically, that is the mentality why some accuse Flash to be boring.
On December 19 2010 23:04 _Quasar_ wrote: Come on, even some Flash's fans say that he is thinking far too much of himself... -__- Isnt that an indicator. =__=
He's a good player but imho this particular season his play and results don't pair with his statements and behaviour. He plays just... normally.
Not in this life. He's like a challenge to everyone in the progaming, and the last games show that this challenge has been accepted.
And yes, maybe he's making some crazy TvT build with 100500 expands everywhere. But seriously, this is fucking boring. In TvT there's no "imbalance" possibilities, so all this can be plainly out-fought with the skill for battles. But yes, Flash can do all this shit, put 3 cc before rax, take 6 expansions in the first 8 minutes and so on. So boring. =_= I just like see him losing because in plain fights he often loses - gets out-dropped and out-tanked. He just tries to think of the build that gives him like insta-win. Fuck that stuff, I don't like to see games that are decided like 20 min before they actually are finished and I think no one likes.
On December 20 2010 00:34 _Quasar_ wrote: Not in this life. He's like a challenge to everyone in the progaming, and the last games show that this challenge has been accepted.
And yes, maybe he's making some crazy TvT build with 100500 expands everywhere. But seriously, this is fucking boring. In TvT there's no "imbalance" possibilities, so all this can be plainly out-fought with the skill for battles. But yes, Flash can do all this shit, put 3 cc before rax, take 6 expansions in the first 8 minutes and so on. So boring. =_= I just like see him losing because in plain fights he often loses - gets out-dropped and out-tanked. He just tries to think of the build that gives him like insta-win. Fuck that stuff, I don't like to see games that are decided like 20 min before they actually are finished and I think no one likes.
Well i dont have a problem with that because 20 minutes win is good for me I don't like watching 1 hour ,2 hours boring standard builds for a tvt game . One's man food another man poison .
On December 19 2010 14:56 flamewheel wrote: Changing icons randomly is bad ;;
Your accusation is offensive. I change icons deterministically based on team performance.
translation: I cheer for whichever team's doing well.
No, I cheer for Flash (and whichever team I like better when he's not playing), but I refuse to acknowledge the rest of the team when they play like they did in R1.
You don't deserve to wear the tag. You've got no confidence in the team even when they hit a bad run, and that means you aren't actually a fan. You're the ultimate fairweather supporter and your KT tag means so little in lieu of that.
Harsh words, man. In truth, I'm a fan of all of KT, Stars, KHAN, ACE, with no strong preference (apart from being a Flash fan) and will with good conscience switch icons between those at my whim. On the other hand, I'm a nonfan of SKT, Hite and STX. Wouldn't wear an SKT icon even if they went undefeated for a whole round.
On December 20 2010 00:34 _Quasar_ wrote: Not in this life. He's like a challenge to everyone in the progaming, and the last games show that this challenge has been accepted.
And yes, maybe he's making some crazy TvT build with 100500 expands everywhere. But seriously, this is fucking boring. In TvT there's no "imbalance" possibilities, so all this can be plainly out-fought with the skill for battles. But yes, Flash can do all this shit, put 3 cc before rax, take 6 expansions in the first 8 minutes and so on. So boring. =_= I just like see him losing because in plain fights he often loses - gets out-dropped and out-tanked. He just tries to think of the build that gives him like insta-win. Fuck that stuff, I don't like to see games that are decided like 20 min before they actually are finished and I think no one likes.
Well i dont have a problem with that because 20 minutes win is good for me I don't like watching 1 hour ,2 hours boring standard builds for a tvt game . One's man food another man poison .
I dislike that even more in TvP and TvZ, I really think Z should revert back to "meat" pre-defiler play, not rely on the hive tech while trying to defend 4 gas bases with like 1.5 lurkers. =\ They need to do that to overcome the build-order based, in fact, losses, that they might not even see coming. That's like playing cat and mouse, while terran obviously being the cat.
Many maps have chokes and flanks which encourage 4+ hatch lurkerling play. And even in the open field, there are limits to which you can spread marines - and still if you spread them, you leave most of them without medical assistance and feed them to lings. In this case lings are as cost effective as marines even if they are stimpacked. (Because normally 1 ling > 1 marine, and with stimpack still 2 lings > 1 marine)
But then zerg must learn some zergling spread to counter marine spread that some terran can do.
That's all a theory, but I strongly feel that something like this might work. Some really battle and control based play instead of gay attempts of build order or imba-abusive wins. I really hate these things.
On December 20 2010 00:34 _Quasar_ wrote: Not in this life. He's like a challenge to everyone in the progaming, and the last games show that this challenge has been accepted.
And yes, maybe he's making some crazy TvT build with 100500 expands everywhere. But seriously, this is fucking boring. In TvT there's no "imbalance" possibilities, so all this can be plainly out-fought with the skill for battles. But yes, Flash can do all this shit, put 3 cc before rax, take 6 expansions in the first 8 minutes and so on. So boring. =_= I just like see him losing because in plain fights he often loses - gets out-dropped and out-tanked. He just tries to think of the build that gives him like insta-win. Fuck that stuff, I don't like to see games that are decided like 20 min before they actually are finished and I think no one likes.
Well i dont have a problem with that because 20 minutes win is good for me I don't like watching 1 hour ,2 hours boring standard builds for a tvt game . One's man food another man poison .
I dislike that even more in TvP and TvZ, I really think Z should revert back to "meat" pre-defiler play, not rely on the hive tech while trying to defend 4 gas bases with like 1.5 lurkers. =\ They need to do that to overcome the build-order based, in fact, losses, that they might not even see coming. That's like playing cat and mouse, while terran obviously being the cat.
Many maps have chokes and flanks which encourage 4+ hatch lurkerling play. And even in the open field, there are limits to which you can spread marines - and still if you spread them, you leave most of them without medical assistance and feed them to lings. In this case lings are as cost effective as marines even if they are stimpacked. (Because normally 1 ling > 1 marine, and with stimpack still 2 lings > 1 marine)
But then zerg must learn some zergling spread to counter marine spread that some terran can do.
That's all a theory, but I strongly feel that something like this might work. Some really battle and control based play instead of gay attempts of build order or imba-abusive wins. I really hate these things.
Well sad thing is we got no control of the pro gamers method of build order as they will do whatever it takes to win .
On December 20 2010 00:34 _Quasar_ wrote: Not in this life. He's like a challenge to everyone in the progaming, and the last games show that this challenge has been accepted.
And yes, maybe he's making some crazy TvT build with 100500 expands everywhere. But seriously, this is fucking boring. In TvT there's no "imbalance" possibilities, so all this can be plainly out-fought with the skill for battles. But yes, Flash can do all this shit, put 3 cc before rax, take 6 expansions in the first 8 minutes and so on. So boring. =_= I just like see him losing because in plain fights he often loses - gets out-dropped and out-tanked. He just tries to think of the build that gives him like insta-win. Fuck that stuff, I don't like to see games that are decided like 20 min before they actually are finished and I think no one likes.
Well i dont have a problem with that because 20 minutes win is good for me I don't like watching 1 hour ,2 hours boring standard builds for a tvt game . One's man food another man poison .
I dislike that even more in TvP and TvZ, I really think Z should revert back to "meat" pre-defiler play, not rely on the hive tech while trying to defend 4 gas bases with like 1.5 lurkers. =\ They need to do that to overcome the build-order based, in fact, losses, that they might not even see coming. That's like playing cat and mouse, while terran obviously being the cat.
Many maps have chokes and flanks which encourage 4+ hatch lurkerling play. And even in the open field, there are limits to which you can spread marines - and still if you spread them, you leave most of them without medical assistance and feed them to lings. In this case lings are as cost effective as marines even if they are stimpacked. (Because normally 1 ling > 1 marine, and with stimpack still 2 lings > 1 marine)
But then zerg must learn some zergling spread to counter marine spread that some terran can do.
That's all a theory, but I strongly feel that something like this might work. Some really battle and control based play instead of gay attempts of build order or imba-abusive wins. I really hate these things.
Well sad thing is we got no control of the pro gamers method of build order as they will do whatever it takes to win .
We have no control but other pro gamers have :D They, too, must have not liked how they lose to build order, not to actually fought battle. =|
I watch. You say that he won 1 and 2 games in BigFile's final NOT by bo win? O_o
That's what is actually nonsense IMO. =___= He just fucking had to come and kill everything, not more not less. What skill it requires? x.x Oh yes you have to develop build... lol. Fuck it. I like games where there actually are fights.
Ok, yet another unargumented statement. Oh come on, keep doing this guys. =__= At least when I say something I try to reinforce it with something, or its just a plain trashtalk. X_x
sorry for this ) it's just too much things in your posts that i can't agree with. btw, was it you who suggested d-web is nice idea for PvT some days ago?
about "boring flash" You know as a protoss user i've never followed a terran player (or zerg) before flash appeared. And now i try to watch every game he plays. Imho, he is very entertainig. His playstyle varies according to his mood. You never know is he going to proxy his opponent or turn on the turtle mode. And what about flash's comebacks? I can't imagine anyone thinks flash is boring player, there are a lot of terran who i consider more boring to be honest. And i'd actually like to write much more about your posts, but too high to concentrate on my thoughts...
On December 20 2010 00:34 _Quasar_ wrote: Not in this life. He's like a challenge to everyone in the progaming, and the last games show that this challenge has been accepted.
And yes, maybe he's making some crazy TvT build with 100500 expands everywhere. But seriously, this is fucking boring. In TvT there's no "imbalance" possibilities, so all this can be plainly out-fought with the skill for battles. But yes, Flash can do all this shit, put 3 cc before rax, take 6 expansions in the first 8 minutes and so on. So boring. =_= I just like see him losing because in plain fights he often loses - gets out-dropped and out-tanked. He just tries to think of the build that gives him like insta-win. Fuck that stuff, I don't like to see games that are decided like 20 min before they actually are finished and I think no one likes.
wtf are you talking about?!
This is a strategy game! So obviously strategies (i.e. build orders) are one of the most important aspects of the game. And yes, Flash is a huge innovator. But I fail to see which of the builds he uses are "insta-win".
You are simply Flash hater. You know nothing about him and his play and you spit you garbage again and again in KT threads.
If you don't like him simply don't post. If you want to post, try to overcome your bias and write for once something meaningful...
This argument is going absolutely nowhere, since nobody has produced any evidence whatsoever for either side, only generalizations that are pretty influenced by opinion. On top of that, it's very notable that all the KT fans are backing up Flash against an Oz fan. Now isn't that something? I don't think anybody should be making arguments of "oh ur biased"
On topic, I can't believe Stars collectively have lost their last 11 games in a row in PL. That's ridiculous. They've fallen so far from 2nd place
On December 20 2010 09:11 infinitestory wrote: This argument is going absolutely nowhere, since nobody has produced any evidence whatsoever for either side, only generalizations that are pretty influenced by opinion. On top of that, it's very notable that all the KT fans are backing up Flash against an Oz fan. Now isn't that something? I don't think anybody should be making arguments of "oh ur biased"
On topic, I can't believe Stars collectively have lost their last 11 games in a row in PL. That's ridiculous. They've fallen so far from 2nd place
Take a look at what he's actually writing. I personally won't even bother to argue with him, I wouldn't know where to begin. >__<
On December 20 2010 09:11 infinitestory wrote: This argument is going absolutely nowhere, since nobody has produced any evidence whatsoever for either side, only generalizations that are pretty influenced by opinion. On top of that, it's very notable that all the KT fans are backing up Flash against an Oz fan. Now isn't that something? I don't think anybody should be making arguments of "oh ur biased"
It doesn't help the cause of "people should actually read posts before posting" when you overgeneralize this into something like "it's KT fans versus an Oz fan".
If you actually read what _Quasar_ has been posting - it's absolute ridiculous garbage, would be great trolling if that was actually his intent, and doesn't really justify a response. The burden of coming up with more specific arguments than generalizations should fall on the side making a controversial claim, just like how people shouldn't need to resort to chemistry when someone produces no evidence and simply claims "the sky is not blue".
On December 20 2010 09:11 infinitestory wrote: This argument is going absolutely nowhere, since nobody has produced any evidence whatsoever for either side, only generalizations that are pretty influenced by opinion. On top of that, it's very notable that all the KT fans are backing up Flash against an Oz fan. Now isn't that something? I don't think anybody should be making arguments of "oh ur biased"
On topic, I can't believe Stars collectively have lost their last 11 games in a row in PL. That's ridiculous. They've fallen so far from 2nd place
Please read what he wrote about Flash. In this thread and in the other ones. It is beyond ridiculous. This is not about "Oz vs KT fans"... This is about one person either deliberately trolling or being blinded by his hate.
I would have argued if there was anything to argue about. For now there is not.
On December 20 2010 00:34 _Quasar_ wrote: Not in this life. He's like a challenge to everyone in the progaming, and the last games show that this challenge has been accepted.
And yes, maybe he's making some crazy TvT build with 100500 expands everywhere. But seriously, this is fucking boring. In TvT there's no "imbalance" possibilities, so all this can be plainly out-fought with the skill for battles. But yes, Flash can do all this shit, put 3 cc before rax, take 6 expansions in the first 8 minutes and so on. So boring. =_= I just like see him losing because in plain fights he often loses - gets out-dropped and out-tanked. He just tries to think of the build that gives him like insta-win. Fuck that stuff, I don't like to see games that are decided like 20 min before they actually are finished and I think no one likes.
wtf are you talking about?!
This is a strategy game! So obviously strategies (i.e. build orders) are one of the most important aspects of the game. And yes, Flash is a huge innovator. But I fail to see which of the builds he uses are "insta-win".
You are simply Flash hater. You know nothing about him and his play and you spit you garbage again and again in KT threads.
If you don't like him simply don't post. If you want to post, try to overcome your bias and write for once something meaningful...
Eh, you'll learn to take _Quasar_'s comments with a grain of salt, they're biased and his strategic analysis is often wrong. No need to get worked up.
On December 19 2010 15:57 underxb wrote: A better player consists of skill and manner... He has the skill but he needs to improve on the manner....He said "NO way he would lose in MSL" Did you watch his interview before MSL? What happened to him in MSL Ro32? He lost twice in a roll....
You are saying that Flash should improve his manners? Flash? Seriously? Did you even read any other interview with him? Get some bigger perspective and don't judge him just from one sentence.
ur letting ur fanboyism blind u from the fact that flash has subpar manners at best. dont bring out "he's the best so he can" stuff because i dont remember boxer or nada trash talking in a manner like flash at the top of their career and doing in-game ceremony like double d matrixing opponent's overlords
underbx's point was legit, you need to get a bigger perspective urself
Seriously guys, are you really taking the MSL group ceremony trash talk seriously? I'm pretty certain the progamers were encouraged to trash talk to make the whole event exciting and interesting...why even bother having that little segment in the Group Ceremony if there wasn't going to be any controversy (that is the whole point of it)?
Flash is the current bonjwa of Starcraft, of course MBC is going to make him say some arrogant shit and have all of his rivals trash talk back. The whole point of the night is to hype up the upcoming matches and that can't be done without trash talk and rivalries being (re)forged.
He's commonly a victim of his own hubris when he gets far too much success for him to handle but I don't see how he's any worse than any other Korean progamer. Seriously, bringing up double d matrix overlords? He must have been like 15 at the time when he did that, it was literally that long ago and I can't really think of anything ingame from his that was similarly BM.
On December 19 2010 15:57 underxb wrote: A better player consists of skill and manner... He has the skill but he needs to improve on the manner....He said "NO way he would lose in MSL" Did you watch his interview before MSL? What happened to him in MSL Ro32? He lost twice in a roll....
You are saying that Flash should improve his manners? Flash? Seriously? Did you even read any other interview with him? Get some bigger perspective and don't judge him just from one sentence.
ur letting ur fanboyism blind u from the fact that flash has subpar manners at best. dont bring out "he's the best so he can" stuff because i dont remember boxer or nada trash talking in a manner like flash at the top of their career and doing in-game ceremony like double d matrixing opponent's overlords
underbx's point was legit, you need to get a bigger perspective urself
No, I'm not. I'm Flash fan for almost three years, my perspective is as good as it can be. Notice that I said fan, not fanboy, just to clear things up.
It's funny that you bring the game vs Magma, that's the only one in which I really didn't like Flash behaviour. But...mind to tell me more examples? You said "in-game ceremony like..." so you surely must have much more examples, right? Or was that more than two and a half year old game the only example of Flash BM you could find? Really? Two and a half year old game?
I would help you though, the game vs Soulkey also comes to mind, where Flash expanded all over the map. That seems quite BM and unnecessary right? Wrong. As Xellos said in his recent interview, doing some in game ceremony is important for keeping the morale. Or is Xellos arrogant BMing bastard too?
-You tried to do an offensive CC, which you don't usually do. Xellos: The flow of the match was going SK's way, so the morale of the team was very low. As Sergeant, you need to up the morale of the team, so I did the CC ceremony.
In that match, Free originally "BMed" Forgg (with Scouts if I remember correctly), Flash was just returning the favor and helping the team morale.
It's also funny that you mention Boxer and Nada but conveniently forgot to mention Oov. You know Oov and his attitude, right? Just from the recent PL writeup:
One thing (T)iloveoov does well is create hype. He has said many controversial remarks in the past that he had to explain himself in many occasions. But as as iloveoov says these things, they have always managed to create hype for the games at hand.
He struck again earlier this week via Cyworld. He posted the Proleague Team Standings -- and highlighted the fact that SKT was 1st while KT was dead last. He then giggled about it, posting the image of the standings. His act soon spread amongst the eSports fans in Korea, and KT's coach (Z)H.O.T-Forever even went out of his way to respond to the statement.
Nice isn't it? And then you have the KT vs SKT match where Ssak "BMed" Tempest with manner CCs. After all this build up Flash said one or two sentences about Ssak and people dare to call him out because of it? How fucking biased you have to be to do something like that?
I guess that would be for the perspective.
And just a quote from Flash to end this up nicely.
▲ (T)Flash= Though it was a bit hard after dropping out of the MSL, I recovered from it faster than I thought. The people around me comforted me a lot and it was then I realized I have a lot of people who care for me. Because of this, I believe I’ll be able to recover even better in the future. Also, recently when my mother saw the icyhot patch on my hand, she told me she hoped I would drop one MSL or OSL. After hearing that, I realized I really do have a lot more to learn from my mother. My mother was worried when she told me that, and I was so touched – I just wanted to say how very, very thankful I am to her for her thoughts.
On December 20 2010 03:17 BeaTeR wrote: sorry for this ) it's just too much things in your posts that i can't agree with. btw, was it you who suggested d-web is nice idea for PvT some days ago?
about "boring flash" You know as a protoss user i've never followed a terran player (or zerg) before flash appeared. And now i try to watch every game he plays. Imho, he is very entertainig. His playstyle varies according to his mood. You never know is he going to proxy his opponent or turn on the turtle mode. And what about flash's comebacks? I can't imagine anyone thinks flash is boring player, there are a lot of terran who i consider more boring to be honest. And i'd actually like to write much more about your posts, but too high to concentrate on my thoughts...
but he does make a point that only KT fans find all flash games not boring...
no one else denies that flash is good, but his games look so one sided that even when he cheeses, as long as he wins, it feels boring to watch
On December 20 2010 03:17 BeaTeR wrote: sorry for this ) it's just too much things in your posts that i can't agree with. btw, was it you who suggested d-web is nice idea for PvT some days ago?
about "boring flash" You know as a protoss user i've never followed a terran player (or zerg) before flash appeared. And now i try to watch every game he plays. Imho, he is very entertainig. His playstyle varies according to his mood. You never know is he going to proxy his opponent or turn on the turtle mode. And what about flash's comebacks? I can't imagine anyone thinks flash is boring player, there are a lot of terran who i consider more boring to be honest. And i'd actually like to write much more about your posts, but too high to concentrate on my thoughts...
but he does make a point that only KT fans find all flash games not boring...
no one else denies that flash is good, but his games look so one sided that even when he cheeses, as long as he wins, it feels boring to watch
This is just a matter of preferences then. One person finds its boring and the other person finds it exciting.
But can you provide a support for the statement you are making that "only KT fans find all Flash games not boring".
Watch his game against Best and tell me again with a straight face that Flash is a boring player... Or simply read comments there and tell me that you only see people with KT icons enjoying that game.
If you find Flash boring you should also find all other terrans boring (maybe except of Hyia but Hyia fails so hard so often it is painful to watch).
Er... I see this thread got bumped just because of this? some kind of dead horse that is being beaten over and over again between people who hate Flash and people who enjoy because of his ability to win. Sure he may not always do the thing that appeals most to the audience but it's mainly because he's not risking his chance to win just to do some good-looking moves (a la Hiya vs free, I believed Hiya just threw that whole series away). But when he knows he can win, he proves to the audience he can pull off some good-looking moves too and still gets derided for being a "turtle/cheesy noob/insert whatever derogatory term here". lol double standard for you people.
I used to not really like Nadal because he wins too much, beating everyone including Federer. But then I understand that he, like everyone else in this sport, just strives to become better, and winning is just an outcome when he can play more effectively than others. So I begin to appreciate his play and tbh it's very good if you consider how many impossible saves he has committed.
I'm not trying to convert any of you to like Flash's play but if you hate him then I suggest you do not watch any live game that has Flash playing or at least don't come in here and stir up such an obsolete argument "durr guys Flash wins again he is so boring I don't care how aggressive his play is he is still a cheesing noob". Even though a lot of opinions in here are just pure *** I'm not going to quote any specific people and fire back at because I don't need to, there's already a lot of people to do it. I wouldn't even bother to say "haters gonna hate" because too many people have said it before me.
On December 20 2010 03:17 BeaTeR wrote: sorry for this ) it's just too much things in your posts that i can't agree with. btw, was it you who suggested d-web is nice idea for PvT some days ago?
about "boring flash" You know as a protoss user i've never followed a terran player (or zerg) before flash appeared. And now i try to watch every game he plays. Imho, he is very entertainig. His playstyle varies according to his mood. You never know is he going to proxy his opponent or turn on the turtle mode. And what about flash's comebacks? I can't imagine anyone thinks flash is boring player, there are a lot of terran who i consider more boring to be honest. And i'd actually like to write much more about your posts, but too high to concentrate on my thoughts...
but he does make a point that only KT fans find all flash games not boring...
no one else denies that flash is good, but his games look so one sided that even when he cheeses, as long as he wins, it feels boring to watch
This is just a matter of preferences then. One person finds its boring and the other person finds it exciting.
But can you provide a support for the statement you are making that "only KT fans find all Flash games not boring".
Watch his game against Best and tell me again with a straight face that Flash is a boring player... Or simply read comments there and tell me that you only see people with KT icons enjoying that game.
If you find Flash boring you should also find all other terrans boring (maybe except of Hyia but Hyia fails so hard so often it is painful to watch).
guess it was a bad idea to say ALL, since a KT fan was definitely going to bring up the one interesting game he played that he won
On December 20 2010 03:17 BeaTeR wrote: sorry for this ) it's just too much things in your posts that i can't agree with. btw, was it you who suggested d-web is nice idea for PvT some days ago?
about "boring flash" You know as a protoss user i've never followed a terran player (or zerg) before flash appeared. And now i try to watch every game he plays. Imho, he is very entertainig. His playstyle varies according to his mood. You never know is he going to proxy his opponent or turn on the turtle mode. And what about flash's comebacks? I can't imagine anyone thinks flash is boring player, there are a lot of terran who i consider more boring to be honest. And i'd actually like to write much more about your posts, but too high to concentrate on my thoughts...
but he does make a point that only KT fans find all flash games not boring...
no one else denies that flash is good, but his games look so one sided that even when he cheeses, as long as he wins, it feels boring to watch
This is just a matter of preferences then. One person finds its boring and the other person finds it exciting.
But can you provide a support for the statement you are making that "only KT fans find all Flash games not boring".
Watch his game against Best and tell me again with a straight face that Flash is a boring player... Or simply read comments there and tell me that you only see people with KT icons enjoying that game.
If you find Flash boring you should also find all other terrans boring (maybe except of Hyia but Hyia fails so hard so often it is painful to watch).
I don't really think that Flash is a boring player, he can be VERY entertaining but its just that his lack of charisma like the other Bonjwas is SOO remarkable. When I look at BoxeR's autobiography, he said that he doesn't like to take advantage of other's weakness when he plays but he like winning with his prepared strategy that will be superior to his opponents. When Nada comes in, its just something about him that make me like him as a Terran than Flash. Or Iloveoov can trashtalk all he wants AND be able to back his trashtalking, a quality that Flash doesn't have.
I think you forgot one thing. Flash is not Bonjwa. He is a living God. So neither is he bound by any of your codes, nor should he seek a way to replicate the presence of previous "Bonjwas". He fulfills his own agenda and he does not care if non-followers are content with his methods of action.
On December 21 2010 01:16 mnesthes wrote: I think you forgot one thing. Flash is not Bonjwa. He is a living God. So neither is he bound by any of your codes, nor should he seek a way to replicate the presence of previous "Bonjwas". He fulfills his own agenda and he does not care if non-followers are content with his methods of action.
If a living god get eliminated in the MSL 2-0 by 2 rookies in his supposedly "best matchup", then I don't know what to say.....
This is what's so annoying about Flash getting knocked out. All of a sudden some people forget that HE FUCKING BEAT JAEDONG IN TWO STARLEAGUE FINALS LAST SEASON AND HAS BEEN IN LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE FINAL FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR WHILE HOVERING AROUND 2400 ELO PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE TIME!
On December 21 2010 01:33 Holgerius wrote: This is what's so annoying about Flash getting knocked out. All of a sudden some people forget that HE FUCKING BEAT JAEDONG IN TWO STARLEAGUE FINALS LAST SEASON AND HAS BEEN IN LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE FINAL FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR WHILE HOVERING AROUND 2400 ELO PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE TIME!
Yeah, and those finals were really bad. You can't fault someone for saying they didn't enjoy watching that.
On December 21 2010 01:33 Holgerius wrote: This is what's so annoying about Flash getting knocked out. All of a sudden some people forget that HE FUCKING BEAT JAEDONG IN TWO STARLEAGUE FINALS LAST SEASON AND HAS BEEN IN LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE FINAL FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR WHILE HOVERING AROUND 2400 ELO PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE TIME!
Are you denying that losing to rookies is significant? No matter how you look at it, it's definitely noteworthy, regardless of what happened earlier. If it was some cheese game, I'd overlook it, but Flash was twice outplayed. That's worth looking at, to say the least. Also, those finals are really quite questionable IMO.
On December 21 2010 01:16 mnesthes wrote: I think you forgot one thing. Flash is not Bonjwa. He is a living God. So neither is he bound by any of your codes, nor should he seek a way to replicate the presence of previous "Bonjwas". He fulfills his own agenda and he does not care if non-followers are content with his methods of action.
If a living god get eliminated in the MSL 2-0 by 2 rookies in his supposedly "best matchup", then I don't know what to say.....
See, when I said that I also meant that he isn't obliged to fulfilling any of your expectations... lol @ Holg calm down brah
On December 21 2010 01:33 Holgerius wrote: This is what's so annoying about Flash getting knocked out. All of a sudden some people forget that HE FUCKING BEAT JAEDONG IN TWO STARLEAGUE FINALS LAST SEASON AND HAS BEEN IN LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE FINAL FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR WHILE HOVERING AROUND 2400 ELO PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE TIME!
Yeah, and those finals were really bad. You can't fault someone for saying they didn't enjoy watching that.
you can't expect him to please everyone...I just don't see why after losing 2 games to scrubs that he is no longer considered the best player and that he is slumping......
Even the best player in the world can lose to scrubs every now and then but that doesn't mean he's suddenly not the best in the world.
you need to constantly outperform him to be better than him.
On December 21 2010 01:33 Holgerius wrote: This is what's so annoying about Flash getting knocked out. All of a sudden some people forget that HE FUCKING BEAT JAEDONG IN TWO STARLEAGUE FINALS LAST SEASON AND HAS BEEN IN LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE FINAL FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR WHILE HOVERING AROUND 2400 ELO PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE TIME!
Are you denying that losing to rookies is significant? No matter how you look at it, it's definitely noteworthy, regardless of what happened earlier. If it was some cheese game, I'd overlook it, but Flash was twice outplayed. That's worth looking at, to say the least. Also, those finals are really quite questionable IMO.
Could be, but putting all the blame on Flash is unfair. Jaedong did multiple all-ins, and Flash deserves credit for his timings (+1 Goliath) and micro.
On December 21 2010 01:33 Holgerius wrote: This is what's so annoying about Flash getting knocked out. All of a sudden some people forget that HE FUCKING BEAT JAEDONG IN TWO STARLEAGUE FINALS LAST SEASON AND HAS BEEN IN LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE FINAL FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR WHILE HOVERING AROUND 2400 ELO PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE TIME!
Yeah, and those finals were really bad. You can't fault someone for saying they didn't enjoy watching that.
Yeah, I bet every single Flash hater didn't enjoy them. Serves them well .
On December 21 2010 01:33 Holgerius wrote: This is what's so annoying about Flash getting knocked out. All of a sudden some people forget that HE FUCKING BEAT JAEDONG IN TWO STARLEAGUE FINALS LAST SEASON AND HAS BEEN IN LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE FINAL FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR WHILE HOVERING AROUND 2400 ELO PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE TIME!
Yeah, and those finals were really bad. You can't fault someone for saying they didn't enjoy watching that.
you can't expect him to please everyone...I just don't see why after losing 2 games to scrubs that he is no longer considered the best player and that he is slumping......
Even the best player in the world can lose to scrubs every now and then but that doesn't mean he's suddenly not the best in the world.
you need to constantly outperform him to be better than him.
well he is supposedly "living god" so yes we expect him to win ALL his games since, well he is "living god" according to some wemade fan in this thread.
On December 21 2010 01:33 Holgerius wrote: This is what's so annoying about Flash getting knocked out. All of a sudden some people forget that HE FUCKING BEAT JAEDONG IN TWO STARLEAGUE FINALS LAST SEASON AND HAS BEEN IN LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE FINAL FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR WHILE HOVERING AROUND 2400 ELO PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE TIME!
Are you denying that losing to rookies is significant? No matter how you look at it, it's definitely noteworthy, regardless of what happened earlier. If it was some cheese game, I'd overlook it, but Flash was twice outplayed. That's worth looking at, to say the least. Also, those finals are really quite questionable IMO.
It is indeed noteworthy, but it is absolutely ridiculous that we should expect Flash to continue to reach literally every final. Savior was stuck in offline preliminaries of OSL for the longest time.
Man, I should know better than getting so annoyed at stuff like this. XD
On December 21 2010 01:33 Holgerius wrote: This is what's so annoying about Flash getting knocked out. All of a sudden some people forget that HE FUCKING BEAT JAEDONG IN TWO STARLEAGUE FINALS LAST SEASON AND HAS BEEN IN LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE FINAL FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR WHILE HOVERING AROUND 2400 ELO PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE TIME!
Yeah, and those finals were really bad. You can't fault someone for saying they didn't enjoy watching that.
you can't expect him to please everyone...I just don't see why after losing 2 games to scrubs that he is no longer considered the best player and that he is slumping......
Even the best player in the world can lose to scrubs every now and then but that doesn't mean he's suddenly not the best in the world.
you need to constantly outperform him to be better than him.
well he is supposedly "living god" so yes we expect him to win ALL his games since, well he is "living god" according to some wemade fan in this thread.
Even gods make mistakes.....see human beings...
but that is off topic.
All I'm trying to say is that you should not discredit Flash because of his MSL performance.
On December 21 2010 01:33 Holgerius wrote: This is what's so annoying about Flash getting knocked out. All of a sudden some people forget that HE FUCKING BEAT JAEDONG IN TWO STARLEAGUE FINALS LAST SEASON AND HAS BEEN IN LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE FINAL FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR WHILE HOVERING AROUND 2400 ELO PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE TIME!
Are you denying that losing to rookies is significant? No matter how you look at it, it's definitely noteworthy, regardless of what happened earlier. If it was some cheese game, I'd overlook it, but Flash was twice outplayed. That's worth looking at, to say the least. Also, those finals are really quite questionable IMO.
Could be, but putting the blame on Flash is unfair. Nobody told Jaedong to do multiple all-ins, and some of Flash timings were pretty sick (+1 Goliath).
WCG JvF was very good.
That's true. To be honest, I'll credit Flash with playing into the weakness of JD: predictability. I mean, if you watched enough JD games, it's pretty obvious how he was going to play. But in no way did Flash outplay JD in terms of mechanics and the like. Also, WCG was only good the first 2 games. Third game was a major JD fail.
On December 21 2010 01:33 Holgerius wrote: This is what's so annoying about Flash getting knocked out. All of a sudden some people forget that HE FUCKING BEAT JAEDONG IN TWO STARLEAGUE FINALS LAST SEASON AND HAS BEEN IN LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE FINAL FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR WHILE HOVERING AROUND 2400 ELO PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE TIME!
Are you denying that losing to rookies is significant? No matter how you look at it, it's definitely noteworthy, regardless of what happened earlier. If it was some cheese game, I'd overlook it, but Flash was twice outplayed. That's worth looking at, to say the least. Also, those finals are really quite questionable IMO.
It is indeed noteworthy, but it is absolutely ridiculous that we should expect Flash to continue to reach literally every final. Savior was stuck in offline preliminaries of OSL for the longest time.
Man, I should know better than getting so annoyed at stuff like this. XD
Fair enough. I'm not saying that he isn't the best anymore, but getting outplayed by rookies isn't something to just disregard.
On December 21 2010 01:33 Holgerius wrote: This is what's so annoying about Flash getting knocked out. All of a sudden some people forget that HE FUCKING BEAT JAEDONG IN TWO STARLEAGUE FINALS LAST SEASON AND HAS BEEN IN LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE FINAL FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR WHILE HOVERING AROUND 2400 ELO PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE TIME!
Yeah, and those finals were really bad. You can't fault someone for saying they didn't enjoy watching that.
Yeah, I bet every single Flash hater didn't enjoy them. Serves them well .
Did you watch them? The Flash versus Fantasy and Jaedong versus Light semifinals were both a lot of fun to watch. Flash versus Jaedong was pretty disappointing by comparison. I'm not going to sit here rewatching and analysing the games so I can explain why but it was obvious to me at the time.
On December 21 2010 01:33 Holgerius wrote: This is what's so annoying about Flash getting knocked out. All of a sudden some people forget that HE FUCKING BEAT JAEDONG IN TWO STARLEAGUE FINALS LAST SEASON AND HAS BEEN IN LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE FINAL FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR WHILE HOVERING AROUND 2400 ELO PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE TIME!
Yeah, and those finals were really bad. You can't fault someone for saying they didn't enjoy watching that.
Yeah, I bet every single Flash hater didn't enjoy them. Serves them well .
Did you watch them? The Flash versus Fantasy and Jaedong versus Light semifinals were both a lot of fun to watch. Flash versus Jaedong was pretty disappointing by comparison. I'm not going to sit here rewatching and analysing the games so I can explain why but it was obvious to me at the time.
Yes I did. Were the games worse than the semifinals? Probably. Did I enjoy them? Totally.
You may disagree, but "really bad" isn't the description I would use.
On December 20 2010 23:39 Lebesgue wrote: Watch his game against Best and tell me again with a straight face that Flash is a boring player... Or simply read comments there and tell me that you only see people with KT icons enjoying that game.
Ok. He's a boring player.
That was the exact same thing he did in the last PvT he did on those positions. They essentially let him turtle while simultaneously abuse the thin walls and exposed minerals of the main in the same fashion that Fantasy lost to some zerg on one of those space maps. Given how much is needed to defend a drop of that sort when you have unreachable tanks backing them, its painfully obvious the front is also going to be attacked. If you watched the other game, you'd also know that. It was completely predictable; there was very little special about it.
Moreover, his normal games have even less drops (although frankly the Fortress games can barely be called drops in the harassment sense) and even more turtling on 2/3 bases until maxed unless absolutely forced to leave sooner (e.g. carriers).
I don't think Flash is too boring, oh yes he can be entertaining from time to time. And I like 100500 times said that i respect his contribution to the game for pushing it to the borders of possible.
But I don't like the mentality of trying to win just with build orders, while having obvious flaws in battling face-to-face. OK, and i like Zerg and would like a zerg to win. But zerg always gets just out-built by Flash and has to either go all-in or to do a supercomeback. I'd like this match up to go some different way, but lol, Jaedong and other guys seem to play just normal builds that generally like 40:60 disadvantage zergs. But maybe that's their fault, not Flash's, and Flash plays just as he can. But these build order wins lead me to wishing that he would be beaten in straight battles, and that's why some people like to see him lose in such way
It isn't "hate" so stop calling whoever here Flash hater =\ As for me I like 1) other race ( ), 2) other type of playing style.
Hope that I've explained everything so that troll joy discussion will come to an end =)))
P.S. And I guess I must say it like 100501'th time - I know Flash's contribution to the game and know that he's currently the best player and challenge that he gives to everyone makes the game so much more entertaining. No trolling here.
On December 20 2010 23:39 Lebesgue wrote: Watch his game against Best and tell me again with a straight face that Flash is a boring player... Or simply read comments there and tell me that you only see people with KT icons enjoying that game.
Ok. He's a boring player.
That was the exact same thing he did in the last PvT he did on those positions. They essentially let him turtle while simultaneously abuse the thin walls and exposed minerals of the main in the same fashion that Fantasy lost to some zerg on one of those space maps. Given how much is needed to defend a drop of that sort when you have unreachable tanks backing them, its painfully obvious the front is also going to be attacked. If you watched the other game, you'd also know that. It was completely predictable; there was very little special about it.
Moreover, his normal games have even less drops (although frankly the Fortress games can barely be called drops in the harassment sense) and even more turtling on 2/3 bases until maxed unless absolutely forced to leave sooner (e.g. carriers).
Flash. Is. Boring. (That's my serious face).
Well played sir, well played! P.S. Khan fans unite! lol
On December 21 2010 02:17 Craton wrote: That was the exact same thing he did in the last PvT he did on those positions. They essentially let him turtle while simultaneously abuse the thin walls and exposed minerals of the main in the same fashion that Fantasy lost to some zerg on one of those space maps. Given how much is needed to defend a drop of that sort when you have unreachable tanks backing them, its painfully obvious the front is also going to be attacked. If you watched the other game, you'd also know that. It was completely predictable; there was very little special about it.
kkkk, that's the point why I've suggested some crazy build involving corsairs specially on this map :D but more seriously, maybe reavers + speed shuttles would be better. And then carrier. ^_^
what i've seen it zerg's builds that allow for that outmicro are wrong if you're counting on your opponents' mistakes you are wrong. You know, I strongly believe that lurker/ling play will save the day for the zerg. But there must be 1) more of them 2) they must be positioned right. Not in this world that you just go and engage terran army in open field, and that was the way Flash did that anti-lurker spread when i've seen it last time (vs RorO iirc). It's a disadvantage for you or you expect a fail from terran. Well I'm not like saying Flash is a fail and can't do anything. X_x You always try to point me that I think something like this. No way. X_x But Flash has disadvantages and they may be exploited, and Ssak/Classic/Light did it brilliantly. I was first like WTF when I saw Flash losing straight up battles (I didn't watch many of his TvTs) but at the end of the Classic match I just thought that it's normal for him.
But still he is freaking best player because no one decides to work hard on their play as hard as Flash did, and become the same but better and more entertaining. Like it or not, but you MUST know 100500 build orders and tricks, and Flash knows and anyone else don't. I wish someone would be so hard working as Flash, but stronger, and so that there wouldn't be a feeling that all he does is a thoroughly prepared homework.
On December 21 2010 02:52 _Quasar_ wrote: what i've seen it zerg's builds that allow for that outmicro are wrong if you're counting on your opponents' mistakes you are wrong. You know, I strongly believe that lurker/ling play will save the day for the zerg. But there must be 1) more of them 2) they must be positioned right. Not in this world that you just go and engage terran army in open field, and that was the way Flash did that anti-lurker spread when i've seen it last time (vs RorO iirc). It's a disadvantage for you or you expect a fail from terran. Well I'm not like saying Flash is a fail and can't do anything. X_x You always try to point me that I think something like this. No way. X_x But Flash has disadvantages and they may be exploited, and Ssak/Classic/Light did it brilliantly. I was first like WTF when I saw Flash losing straight up battles (I didn't watch many of his TvTs) but at the end of the Classic match I just thought that it's normal for him.
But still he is freaking best player because no one decides to work hard on their play as hard as Flash did, and become the same but better and more entertaining. Like it or not, but you MUST know 100500 build orders and tricks, and Flash knows and anyone else don't. I wish someone would be so hard working as Flash, but stronger, and so that there wouldn't be a feeling that all he does is a thoroughly prepared homework.
I'd like you to point, realistically, how many other progamers would be able to pull such a counterflank.
FlaSh doesn't just know 100500 builds. He either creates the builds or improves upon them. That's called innovation. There is a reason why he is so dominant despite the fact that no other Terran has reached a final since Fantasy.
please don't post here any single example of Flash's brilliant play. What does it prove? That Flash can do brilliant micro and strategic decisions? Please. Anyone has their hour of glory. Ok I agree that Flash makes this kind of things significantly more often than an average progamer
In this case: when Flash saw muta from behind he guessed what was coming and immediately spread his marines. That paid off. But GGPlay had only lurkers and muta, who in open field dramatically suck vs mmt ball. And to be honest he positioned them not too good.
This is what happens if you try to kill Flash by one basically all-in trick. I've always said that. =/ Here's another example.
I've read the Pimpest play 2010 thread and saw RuBy do something of this kind too (I mean his accurate shooting of mines that had been planted around his tanks). And Ruby isn't even a top20 player. IMO that indicates that many players can perform the unbelievable things. Not only Flash.
If I were GGPlay, then before doing that fail flank, I'd make freaking 2 packs of lings to reinforce this. And better 4 or 5 packs, that's freaking no money compared to the cost of standard 3 packs of marines that Flash had. And like 6 medics obviosly cannot heal the whole number of marines being attacked.
As much as spread helps vs lurkers, it would kill vs lings - because most medics just aren't able to heal. That's a lose-lose situation for a terran and he can only try to find a golden middle between this. And THIS would be a true surround, unlike the thing GGPlay did.
I'm slightly exaggerating but seriously. Without lings this attack is generally a suicide. Earlier or later all terran will learn to spread like that. =/
ok let Flash's fans be Flash's fans and close this. I'm seriously tired of posting something and get answers like "oh flash is god omg omg, no one can be as good as him". That fanboyism seriously would make one go "oh fuck this".
Holgerius's posts are what is boring. In any thread remotely related to Flash. Seriously you should take a break from your constant relentless defence of him, he doesn't need you to stick up for him at every opportunity. Its kinda pathetic.
We can have our opinions on Flash if we want. Personally i thought the game vs BeSt wasn't that impressive as i posted in the live thread, BeSt got fucked position-wise and responded to the heavy dropship play in the worst possible way. Because it was Fortress it wasn't particularly amazing it was just his opponent failing to react in any clever manner. After seeing Flash vs ZerO i don't think i'll ever be able to like him as a player. That was the most frustrating bullshit game i've ever seen of SC in my life and i'm not even a ZerO fan.
Btw with this TvT in question, Really should have had a better plan and follow up for this map. I was very unimpressed with it.
Yeah seriously, what's up with people being fans of Flash in a KT live report thread? Get the fuck outta here guys, if we wanna come into threads about his games, call him boring for using lots of drops, then call him boring for turtling, then call him boring for beating his opponents too quickly, then call him boring for using too many different strategies, then say all of his wins are because of his opponent's failures, who is anyone to stop us? Why should we give credit to anyone who isn't Bisu or Jaedong? They just have that... well I dunno what it is, but it's all that matters to me <3
The only times I dislike Flash is when he wins too much, other than that Flash is an amazing player. I want him to lose from time to time CONVINCINGLY just to prove he's not unstoppable. Even other pro gamers recognize his power, everyone wants to beat him because when you can beat Flash you know you are doing something right. Stork wants to be the Protoss that can beat Flash but sadly he can't and get jealous when Kal manage to take a game from Flash. Jaedong was suppose to be the Zerg that can take Flash but somehow after OSL/MSL finals, hearing the name Jaedong just don't have the meaning it used to have. Jaedong used to have these sparks of being a powerful tyrant but now, it feels like those sparks are gone and overshadow by Flash's dominance. Hopefully Jaedong will start tearing it up again ripping Terrans and zergs left and right(we already knows he eats Protoss for breakfast) and regain his lost sparks. I'm also hoping for a new rising star with skills that rivals Flash. Flash could use a new rival so his BW skill ceiling can reach higher.
On December 21 2010 07:32 infinity2k9 wrote: Holgerius's posts are what is boring. In any thread remotely related to Flash. Seriously you should take a break from your constant relentless defence of him, he doesn't need you to stick up for him at every opportunity. Its kinda pathetic.
We can have our opinions on Flash if we want. Personally i thought the game vs BeSt wasn't that impressive as i posted in the live thread, BeSt got fucked position-wise and responded to the heavy dropship play in the worst possible way. Because it was Fortress it wasn't particularly amazing it was just his opponent failing to react in any clever manner. After seeing Flash vs ZerO i don't think i'll ever be able to like him as a player. That was the most frustrating bullshit game i've ever seen of SC in my life and i'm not even a ZerO fan.
Btw with this TvT in question, Really should have had a better plan and follow up for this map. I was very unimpressed with it.
And people should take a break from criticizing Flash. Kinda pathetic that people keep saying he has nothing special while for whole year no one could touch it and he reached triple dual finals... Yeah, the guy is just an average player and anyone obviously could do it if they wanted. They just don't want to win...
Always the same bullshit, Flash is boring, Flash lacks skills, anyone could play like Flash... But somehow...
There are millions of people capable of playing Stairway to Heaven by practising, but how many have it in them to actually compose something like that?
On December 21 2010 07:32 infinity2k9 wrote: After seeing Flash vs ZerO i don't think i'll ever be able to like him as a player. That was the most frustrating bullshit game i've ever seen of SC in my life and i'm not even a ZerO fan.
I love that game, and I am a ZerO fan. It was so intense to watch live and seeing the offense/defense between the two was outstanding.
Guys (Holgerius + KT fan and Flash's), I want to say that in my opinion why people think that Flash is boring is NOT because of his plays but because of his personality. Flash is not....well charismatic unlike the other great terran players out there like Sea, Leta, Midas and etc. I respect him a lot as a player but if only he could have the charisma of BoxeR or something, then that would TRULY make him "living god" lol
On December 21 2010 02:52 _Quasar_ wrote: what i've seen it zerg's builds that allow for that outmicro are wrong if you're counting on your opponents' mistakes you are wrong. You know, I strongly believe that lurker/ling play will save the day for the zerg. But there must be 1) more of them 2) they must be positioned right. Not in this world that you just go and engage terran army in open field, and that was the way Flash did that anti-lurker spread when i've seen it last time (vs RorO iirc). It's a disadvantage for you or you expect a fail from terran. Well I'm not like saying Flash is a fail and can't do anything. X_x You always try to point me that I think something like this. No way. X_x But Flash has disadvantages and they may be exploited, and Ssak/Classic/Light did it brilliantly. I was first like WTF when I saw Flash losing straight up battles (I didn't watch many of his TvTs) but at the end of the Classic match I just thought that it's normal for him.
But still he is freaking best player because no one decides to work hard on their play as hard as Flash did, and become the same but better and more entertaining. Like it or not, but you MUST know 100500 build orders and tricks, and Flash knows and anyone else don't. I wish someone would be so hard working as Flash, but stronger, and so that there wouldn't be a feeling that all he does is a thoroughly prepared homework.
I'd like you to point, realistically, how many other progamers would be able to pull such a counterflank.
FlaSh doesn't just know 100500 builds. He either creates the builds or improves upon them. That's called innovation. There is a reason why he is so dominant despite the fact that no other Terran has reached a final since Fantasy.
flash is very innovative, and he's good. doesn't mean he's not boring.
to me, flash is like
a fantasy, but he uses his own builds a forgg, except he uses his own timing pushes first then allows forgg to use it
On December 21 2010 07:32 infinity2k9 wrote: After seeing Flash vs ZerO i don't think i'll ever be able to like him as a player. That was the most frustrating bullshit game i've ever seen of SC in my life and i'm not even a ZerO fan.
I love that game, and I am a ZerO fan. It was so intense to watch live and seeing the offense/defense between the two was outstanding.
Yes. That's why half of pimpest play thread and another half of best play thread are Flash's games.
What does it prove? That Flash can do brilliant micro and strategic decisions? Please. Anyone has their hour of glory
Yeah, yeah, anyone can win OSL and MSL they just dont want to do so. Hour of glory - ok, then what about 3 years of consistent play? If wins and results are not proofs of the talent then what are? Just go to TLPD and compare Flash's stats and Ruby's and then you learn difference between one-time mine-sniping achievement and golden mouse. How can you label someone biased fanboy when you have like zero sanity in your post?
After seeing Flash vs ZerO i don't think i'll ever be able to like him as a player.
It was one of the funnest TvZ, actually.
2 Xiphos Agreed, he is too serious and "good" behaved boy, nothing "flashy", kinda plane person. No good for showbiz and mass amusement. From other side I do not think he has some way around it. To mach pressure and temptations for young kid, any slacking or loosing of self control and instead of Flash we have Baby. He is all about professionalism.
P.S 2 all Flash haters, try to write your posts without: "boring", "anyone can do so", "the same BO", "14 CC", "terran imba", "map imba", "turtling", "he always win" phrases and provide some arguments for yours statements. Thx.
lol this Flash hates never gets old. No matter how he plays, he'll always be hated for beating people's favorite player. The hate will never stop.
I don't see why KT members got to defend him since it's been like this since he debuted.
Also why would you guys argue with _Quasar_? You can tell that he's a troll, giving scenario to the Zergs(ggplay vs flash game) to defeat flash and all.
flash is one of the most entertaining players ever in my opinion he doesn't cheese randomly ,he always knows how to play mind games with the other opponent which makes it super interesting, he doesnt bullshit his way into leagues and finals but rather outplays anyone who comes near him occasionally he loses but we all have those bad days where our hands just aren't moving the way we want them to and the pressure gets to us now flash to me is a very entertaining player to watch i dont understand why people think he is boring he plays very well and does the same build order BUT when he cheeses when he does agressive pushes everyone says oh he just cheesed because he can't win straight up you have any idea how frustratingly stupid you are? honestly if you think flas his a boring player you just dont understand the depth starcraft actually has and think it is all about the build you do when it is quite a bit more then that and that is why i think flash is the best and most entertaining player ever because his mind games,strategy,timing,macro,micro, and game sense are just so unbelievably high that it is almost impossible to beat him at the top of his game even jaedong can barely beat him at the top of his game
On December 21 2010 14:16 Leviathen1 wrote: flash is one of the most entertaining players ever in my opinion he doesn't cheese randomly ,he always knows how to play mind games with the other opponent which makes it super interesting, he doesnt bullshit his way into leagues and finals but rather outplays anyone who comes near him occasionally he loses but we all have those bad days where our hands just aren't moving the way we want them to and the pressure gets to us now flash to me is a very entertaining player to watch i dont understand why people think he is boring he plays very well and does the same build order BUT when he cheeses when he does agressive pushes everyone says oh he just cheesed because he can't win straight up you have any idea how frustratingly stupid you are? honestly if you think flas his a boring player you just dont understand the depth starcraft actually has and think it is all about the build you do when it is quite a bit more then that and that is why i think flash is the best and most entertaining player ever because his mind games,strategy,timing,macro,micro, and game sense are just so unbelievably high that it is almost impossible to beat him at the top of his game even jaedong can barely beat him at the top of his game
jaedong nearly beat him on T favored maps.
imagine if ZvT was imba in favor of Z, and they played on Z favored maps
I went to sleep and then woke up and still see people arguing. Thanks to quasar we have ~4 pages of content that is neither original nor relevant to the KT vs Woongjin match. ~_~
This thread should really have stopped at page 17. Some of the trolling is incredible. Especially Quasar. At least I hope he was trolling; if he wasn't...
No I wasn't. I think that my knowledge of the game isn't that good but at least not that awful as some people in the thread think (they probably think they should explain me how to build pylons =\ ). I'm probably going to write the last post on the topic and stop it, but let me say I completely don't understand where I "troll" anyone. I think Flash has weak point and has been showing this since the beginning of the season, but since he got away with all this, 'cause his opponents didn't succeed in punishing him for it, everyone of kt roflster fanboys went "oh flash u so god omg omg". That was a bit too much, and even I think that doesn't benefit your beloved Flash when he does not-so-good and u say his play is divine. And sorry for believing that game's evolution doesn't stop on your Flash and should go on, because 1) Flash has flaws, 2) there are ficking THREE races and your divine Flash happens to play only ONE of them.
I hope I've explained anything, but if you still consider it "troll message", then simply don't answer it, as it's written in all anti-troll instructions. =\
On December 22 2010 02:06 _Quasar_ wrote: No I wasn't. I think that my knowledge of the game isn't that good but at least not that awful as some people in the thread think (they probably think they should explain me how to build pylons =\ ). I'm probably going to write the last post on the topic and stop it, but let me say I completely don't understand where I "troll" anyone. I think Flash has weak point and has been showing this since the beginning of the season, but since he got away with all this, 'cause his opponents didn't succeed in punishing him for it, everyone of kt roflster fanboys went "oh flash u so god omg omg". That was a bit too much, and even I think that doesn't benefit your beloved Flash when he does not-so-good and u say his play is divine. And sorry for believing that game's evolution doesn't stop on your Flash and should go on, because 1) Flash has flaws, 2) there are ficking THREE races and your divine Flash happens to play only ONE of them.
I hope I've explained anything, but if you still consider it "troll message", then simply don't answer it, as it's written in all anti-troll instructions. =\
I'm leaving this thread.
...
Not in this life. He's like a challenge to everyone in the progaming, and the last games show that this challenge has been accepted.
And yes, maybe he's making some crazy TvT build with 100500 expands everywhere. But seriously, this is fucking boring. In TvT there's no "imbalance" possibilities, so all this can be plainly out-fought with the skill for battles. But yes, Flash can do all this shit, put 3 cc before rax, take 6 expansions in the first 8 minutes and so on. So boring. =_= I just like see him losing because in plain fights he often loses - gets out-dropped and out-tanked. He just tries to think of the build that gives him like insta-win. Fuck that stuff, I don't like to see games that are decided like 20 min before they actually are finished and I think no one likes.
Are you sure you don't need some help with those pylons? Seriously though, I can't really judge from these how much you know about the game, because you just seem to hate flash so much that you watch his games hoping that he will lose and find any opportunity to interpret his game negatively. You can do the same shit with any player.. just watch some games and make up something negative about it.
And yes, I'm a flash fan, but seriously, even when not entirely objective (i try to be as much as i can), defending ones favorite player is more ok than making a huge amount of posts just to highlight your negative opinion on a player you don't like imho. Do you think that even with the amount of haters that flash already has, he still has unjustifiably positive feedback?
EPT
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Violet < Bloody Ridge > 
ZerO
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