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5003 Posts
On December 01 2010 16:49 kamikami wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 16:43 Milkis wrote:On December 01 2010 16:35 PoP wrote:On December 01 2010 16:33 Milkis wrote:
you can say that for so many series
why are you skt fans so concerned only with results and not the players/teams lol
you guys are disgusting People disappointed at someone for losing their team a won series is disgusting? That's so wrong. No one can deny Sun is extremely promising. But ignoring the fact that he made a critical mistake just out of 'player respect' or whatever would just be utterly stupid. edit oh and btw no, losing a 99% won game that also happens to be decisive does not happen 'all the time' at all You can be disappointed but blaming it on Sun is kinda dumb. You don't have to ignore the critical mistake, although i don't think it was that critical at all -- he lost because he didnt have observers in the right places when the arbiter showed up, he played it rather safely before then. Saying "Sun" lost it is rather stupid when SKT still had a chance after that didn't go well cause Kal outplayed Bisu this time. The point is "Player X lost it for the team" blah blah remarks are extremely dumb because so many series are decided on critical mistakes -- it's almost as if you don't care if the game was good, especially when the remark sounded a lot more dumb result oriented and sounded like it had some weird tendency to avoid blaming Bisu for some reason when he's the one who lost the Ace match. Bisu is not to be blamed Milkis you do not blame beautiful people for anything that's the rule of the universe. And on a side note he did stupid all-in and failed so there is just nothing to blame. You don't know what would have happened if he had played standard.
You can blame him all you want for picking an All in play, of course there's something to blame lol. He took an unnecessary risk and lost it based on that.
If Bisu used the exact same build he did against Kal the game before, I would say Bisu would have had a much higher chance of winning.
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On December 01 2010 16:43 Milkis wrote:
You can be disappointed but blaming it on Sun is kinda dumb.
You don't have to ignore the critical mistake, although i don't think it was that critical at all -- he lost because he didnt have observers in the right places when the arbiter showed up, he played it rather safely before then.
If not attacking when you have 2x more shit than your opponent in a mirror matchup despite only being half an expo up is not a critical mistake, then we simply don't have the same dictionary.
Saying "Sun" lost it is rather stupid when SKT still had a chance after that didn't go well cause Kal outplayed Bisu this time.
The point is "Player X lost it for the team" blah blah remarks are extremely dumb because so many series are decided on critical mistakes -- it's almost as if you don't care if the game was good, especially when the remark sounded a lot more dumb result oriented and sounded like it had some weird tendency to avoid blaming Bisu for some reason when he's the one who lost the Ace match.
Critical mistakes happen quite often yes, but most of the time players just simply get outplayed or someone just plays like crap from beginning to the end. Today Sun made the worst mistake of the night by a very long shot. When he had the game won, and when his team was leading 4-2. He did lose it for the team and had Bisu and Sun been reverted I would reach exactly the same conclusion.
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Face it, you're cheering for the best performing team, cut them a bit of slack, jesus christ.
You paranoid or something? No one sounds angry in his thread except you.
People are disappointed and rightly so. Deal with it.
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5003 Posts
On December 01 2010 16:52 PoP wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 16:43 Milkis wrote:
You can be disappointed but blaming it on Sun is kinda dumb.
You don't have to ignore the critical mistake, although i don't think it was that critical at all -- he lost because he didnt have observers in the right places when the arbiter showed up, he played it rather safely before then.
If not attacking when you have 2x more shit than your opponent in a mirror matchup despite only being half an expo up is not a critical mistake, then we simply don't have the same dictionary. Show nested quote +Saying "Sun" lost it is rather stupid when SKT still had a chance after that didn't go well cause Kal outplayed Bisu this time.
The point is "Player X lost it for the team" blah blah remarks are extremely dumb because so many series are decided on critical mistakes -- it's almost as if you don't care if the game was good, especially when the remark sounded a lot more dumb result oriented and sounded like it had some weird tendency to avoid blaming Bisu for some reason when he's the one who lost the Ace match. Critical mistakes happen quite often yes, but most of the time players just simply get outplayed or someone just plays like crap from beginning to the end. Today Sun made the worst mistake of the night by a very long shot. When he had the game won, and when his team was leading 4-2. He lost it for the team and had Bisu and Sun been reverted I would reach exactly the same conclusion.
Note again that he was being conservative in that. He took down an expo, and he knew that he was up by one expo after busting one of them down. I see nothing wrong with that -- he would have won at that point if his observers were in the right places in the right time to deal with the arbiters really (it looked like the arbiter totally got him off guard)
I wouldn't say if it was a critical mistake or just Sun just not knowing better - Shuttle can pull off the same "break 3 expos" because he knows the game a lot better. I'm not too sure if being inexperienced is a mistake, that is all.
On December 01 2010 16:55 PoP wrote:Show nested quote +Face it, you're cheering for the best performing team, cut them a bit of slack, jesus christ. You paranoid or something? No one sounds angry in his thread except you. People are disappointed and rightly so. Deal with it.
What would i be paranoid about? lol. I do sound a bit angry, mostly because I believe Progaming is more about personality/players growing into a vibrant scene rather than all of this result oriented bullshit SKT fans seem to be into :[
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On December 01 2010 16:52 PoP wrote:
He did lose it for the team and had Bisu and Sun been reverted I would reach exactly the same conclusion.
If they are reverted I will blame Sun for losing an ace match by using stupid all-in build and blame coach Park for sending such an inexperienced player in ace match lol while avoiding Bisu's game lol.
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Kal may seem to choke, but its because of his innovative play that involves taking a lot of risks. I applaud and love him for that
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Baa?21244 Posts
I'm so happy right now I'm ridiculously proud and happy. STX fighting~
This is like just the kind of confidence boost we needed, and Calm winning against Best too! Woot!
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On December 01 2010 16:57 Milkis wrote:
Note again that he was being conservative in that. He took down an expo, and he knew that he was up by one expo after busting one of them down. I see nothing wrong with that -- he would have won at that point if his observers were in the right places in the right time to deal with the arbiters really (it looked like the arbiter totally got him off guard)
I wouldn't say if it was a critical mistake or just Sun just not knowing better - Shuttle can pull off the same "break 3 expos" because he knows the game a lot better. I'm not too sure if being inexperienced is a mistake, that is all.
His observer play was terrible all game long actually, always running them straight into Shuttle's army. But the moment in the game his obs were not where they were supposed to be is exactly when he just crushed Shuttle's army. Shuttle had almost no goons to snipe them at that point. A single obs would've showed him how much more shit he had compared to his opponent.
No matter how safe you want to play a game, in a mirror matchup and especially in PvP not attacking in that situation is terrible. By the way that's exactly what Bisu was referring to in an interviews a few weeks ago, about Sun still being terribad at knowing how and when to finish a game.
On December 01 2010 16:55 PoP wrote:
What would i be paranoid about? lol. I do sound a bit angry, mostly because I believe Progaming is more about personality/players growing into a vibrant scene rather than all of this result oriented bullshit SKT fans seem to be into :[
Paranoid as in reacting as if people pointing out player mistakes a personal offense to you or something.
Oh and sorry but that's such a bad argument. You can't expect such a competitive scene not to be about results at some point. Fans want their teams to win and you know it, that doesn't mean at all that they don't care about their personality or whatever.
And the fact that T1 has more fans than other teams exactly because of what you're describing (charismatic and fan-favourite players such as Boxer and Oov) makes your point even wronger (to me at least).
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Estonia4504 Posts
BTW, did anyone notice this thread has like 51 pages of comments? BW is NOT dead!
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Oh man, wake up to find SKT finally losing again....Could this be the part where Bisu crumbles?
Ah well at least Fantasy keeps kicking ass. I think he is on a 10-game win streak now and nearing his ELO-peak :D
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5003 Posts
His observer play was terrible all game long actually, always running them straight into Shuttle's army. But the moment in the game his obs were not where they were supposed to be is exactly when he just crushed Shuttle's army. Shuttle had almost no goons to snipe them at that point. A single obs would've showed him how much more shit he had compared to Shuttle.
No matter how safe you want to play a game, in a mirror matchup and especially in PvP not attacking in that situation is terrible. By the way that's exactly what Bisu was referring to in an interviews a few weeks ago, about Sun still being terribad at knowing how and when to finish a game.
Yes, that's one thing that really did stand out in that game (how many Observers Sun lost). Either way, is that really a "worse" mistake than Bisu going all in? Or any other mistakes that likely went on throughout the night?
And FYI, nearly every new player has that issue of "knowing how and when to finish a game", even some of the more seasoned players even have trouble with this. I don't see, given Sun's experiences and how many games he's played why this is so critical compared to any other mistakes that plague all the proleague matches enough to blame him for the entire team losing. It's just retarded. In fact, Bisu is more to blame on that -- taking unnecessary risk on the ace match the team built to? Please. Sun is no more to blame than Bisu.
Paranoid as in reacting as if people pointing out player mistakes a personal offense to you or something.
Oh and sorry but that's such a bad argument. You can't expect such a competitive scene not to be about results at some point. Fans want their teams to win and you know it, and that doesn't mean at all that they don't care about their personality or whatever.
And the fact that T1 has more fans than other teams exactly because of what you're describing (charismatic and fan-favourite players such as Boxer and Oov) makes your point even wronger. At least imo.
Of course results definitely play a part. The issue with SKT fans is that
1) They have no idea what their players' personalities are like, they seem to enjoy making shit up about them in every interview
2) They're COMPLETELY results oriented, period.
It has nothing to do with Charisma, it has to do with Bisu fanboys who actually dont' know how socially awkward Bisu is in every single one of his live interviews who think he's the best. Remove the Bisu fans, how many fans will SKT have? I mean, your argument about oov and boxer is like saying Yellow and Reach is the main reason for KT fans, when the main reason obviously is Flash.
You can call it paranoid but seriously I'm kinda fed up with how silly SKT fans behave sometimes.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50601 Posts
On December 01 2010 17:12 mustaju wrote:
BTW, did anyone notice this thread has like 51 pages of comments? BW is NOT dead!
I know you are exicted but wehere did you get the idea that BW is dead??
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Estonia4504 Posts
On December 01 2010 17:16 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 17:12 mustaju wrote:
BTW, did anyone notice this thread has like 51 pages of comments? BW is NOT dead! I know you are exicted but wehere did you get the idea that BW is dead??
There are days when I find a lot less activity and that's when the claims of BW dying start. Just reinforcing common sense. 
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On December 01 2010 17:16 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 17:12 mustaju wrote:
BTW, did anyone notice this thread has like 51 pages of comments? BW is NOT dead! I know you are exicted but wehere did you get the idea that BW is dead??
Probably from the SC2 forums 
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On December 01 2010 17:19 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 17:16 BLinD-RawR wrote:On December 01 2010 17:12 mustaju wrote:
BTW, did anyone notice this thread has like 51 pages of comments? BW is NOT dead! I know you are exicted but wehere did you get the idea that BW is dead?? There are days when I find a lot less activity and that's when the claims of BW dying start. Just reinforcing common sense.
I'm quite sure I recall someone saying that people have been saying that BW is dying since 5+ years ago.
It's really nothing new. It's just a lot of people don't like to post.
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Russian Federation405 Posts
By.GooJiLa is a CHAMP! Yep.
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On December 01 2010 17:15 Milkis wrote:
Yes, that's one thing that really did stand out in that game (how many Observers Sun lost). Either way, is that really a "worse" mistake than Bisu going all in? Or any other mistakes that likely went on throughout the night?
Going all-in is a gamble, it's not a mistake in itself. Bisu didn't make a mistake, he got straight up outplayed. And he got outplayed by an extremely good/in-shape opponent on top of that.
Again, what makes Sun's mistake bad is that it lost him an almost won game. Those are the worst mistakes by far, because they're the easiest to avoid. I don't see any other game where it occured tonight. Anyway, let's just agree to disagree on that one, we're pretty much running in circles here.
And FYI, nearly every new player has that issue of "knowing how and when to finish a game", even some of the more seasoned players even have trouble with this. I don't see, given Sun's experiences and how many games he's played why this is so critical compared to any other mistakes that plague all the proleague matches enough to blame him for the entire team losing. It's just retarded. In fact, Bisu is more to blame on that -- taking unnecessary risk on the ace match the team built to? Please. Sun is no more to blame than Bisu.
No one said he was the only one to blame. Blaming players isn't exactly helping anything, but pointing out the main mistakes and being honest about which ones were critical to the non-win is a completely healthy thing, that I'm certain Sun and the team will proceed to do in order to improve and help him improve. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Of course results definitely play a part. The issue with SKT fans is that
1) They have no idea what their players' personalities are like, they seem to enjoy making shit up about them in every interview
Does anyone not living in Korea, or at least speaking the same language, have any idea what progamers' personality is like IRL anyway? We only have clues thanks to interviews, opening ceremonies and shit, but it's not like anyone knows any player's real personality, except maybe for Sea.
2) They're COMPLETELY results oriented, period.
Yeah because other teams' fans wouldn't have pointed out critical mistakes made by their players. You're not that naive are you?
It has nothing to do with Charisma, it has to do with Bisu fanboys who actually dont' know how socially awkward Bisu is in every single one of his live interviews who think he's the best. Remove the Bisu fans, how many fans will SKT have? I mean, your argument about oov and boxer is like saying Yellow and Reach is the main reason for KT fans, when the main reason obviously is Flash.
Most people like Bisu because they love T1 because they loved Boxer/Oov. That's for the oldschool fans like me at least. The newer ones I don't know, but if Bisu's personality has been pretty bland, his play has been terrific and his influence to the game absolutely gigantic. That's a decent enough reason to like a player. He's shy and awkward, yeah, but so what? 99% progamers are.
You can call it paranoid but seriously I'm kinda fed up with how silly SKT fans behave sometimes.
You just read a live report thread where people are disappointed about their team losing and you're getting angry for some random reason just because you don't like some of Bisu's fans. Just chill out and quickly read through the thread again later. There were maybe two or three overreacting messages at most.
Btw please don't ever read any SC2 live report threads because you'll probably die, considering your reaction to this one.
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5003 Posts
Does anyone not living in Korea, or at least speaking the same language, have any idea what progamers' personality is like IRL anyway? We only have clues thanks to interviews, opening ceremonies and shit, but it's not like anyone knows any player's real personality, except maybe for Sea.
You know if you guys don't have a taste of the progamer's personality through interviews other than thinking they're all "shy and awkward" then that just means I probably completely failed as a translator :[
Yeah because other teams' fans wouldn't have pointed out critical mistakes made by their players. You're not that naive are you?
It'd be akin to blaming Perfectman for losing to Free in the less recent Woongjin vs Oz match (i actually don't know if there was a mistake in that game, it's just an example) when it was Jaedong who lost the game by going after the main instead of the natural (and not sniping the spire) The point is you're free to point out critical mistake, my issue is why does the blame go completely on Sun, and not Bisu?
Btw please don't ever read any SC2 live report threads because you'll probably die, considering your reaction to this one.
Yeah dont worry about that lol
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The saddest thing about this loss is that it kills my hope for a perfect season for SKT. I was really hoping for 54-0+Playoff win.
+ Show Spoiler +Not really, but I'm hoping that Ssak winning will give him some confidence boost and that the protoss line continues to do well.
Btw, anyone else feel really bad for Canata?
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Estonia4504 Posts
On December 01 2010 11:19 Zona wrote:
Lol, y'all got trolled by mustaju.
Anyways, STX will lose today, due to the mustaju pendulum curse. You see, if you examine every STX match where mustaju made the LR thread, STX alternates between winning and losing. Which perfectly explains their mediocre, middling record.
Mustaju's STX LR thread history:
WeMade > STX
STX > MBC
hite > STX
STX > KT
Woongjin > STX
STX > KT
and now... SKT ? STX
And good stuff on the pokemon battle analogy, moopie. Lots of nice touches there.
Curse broken! 
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EPT
