Round 2 of Proleague is about to start, and if it is anything like round 1 (link to recap), we’re in for quite a ride. Sundays rematch almost had a precursor in the form of KeSPA’s Football Cup. For dramatic purposes (and the horrible incident with North Korea), it was postponed, but this doesn’t remove the hype before the match between last years #1 and #3.
I have two fans of the respective teams here today, a big thank you to moopie and Ideas! + Show Spoiler +
(especially since I was extremely late with the questions!)
1. The season hasn’t started too well for either KT nor STX, and some of the fans have already started to lose faith. What would you say to the STX supporters who have switched their icons and to the KT fans that mournfully long for ages not-so-long ago?
moopie: As a big fan of both teams, I think they both have what it takes to be top contenders this season. Being an STX fan means you have come to terms with the occasional clamming of the team, but also know that when they are in the zone they can kick some serious ass, which makes for a fun emotional roller coaster. True fans shouldn't abandon them (Oz fans can relate I'm sure).
Ideas: I feel like this will be a good round for STX. Although last round didn't pan out as well as I had hoped, STX players are all doing very well in the individual leagues right now. Calm in particular I think has got his groove back, as his last few games have been very inspiring.
2. Let’s look at the last round more closely. KT won only 3 of its 9 games, and STX won 4. That’s less than half the games, and both lost matches they probably shouldn’t have. What are the mistakes that should be corrected for this season?
moopie: Both teams had players not quite living up to their potential, like Calm and Violet. The coaching staffs used this time to give experience to a lot of the lesser players, to strengthen the roster and bolster their depth. KT and STX both fielded 11 players last round, more than any other team, and that should help in the later rounds with the Bo7 lineups. I trust in the coaches decisions and hope this pays off.
Ideas: STX made a few bad mistakes with lineups decisions I feel (especially in the 6th sets), and we had 2 lost ace matches. The first was probably unavoidable (no one on STX really stands more a chance vs JD than the others), and Kal vs Shine was stupidly close. I think the biggest problem last round was that the team was still feeling out their new lineup (fitting in classic and hyvaa to their already huge A-team) and a lot of the rookies were pretty inconsistent. The only real way to fix this is to give them all more experience, which is exactly what has been going on lately.
3. As an obligatory unrelated question, who will win the KeSPA Football Cup when the finals finally take place?
moopie: Ouch, that's a hard call, but I can't vote against Reach's mad goalie skills.
Ideas: I dunno. STX I guess? lol
4. The last time the two teams met this season, STX won 4-1. What are your thoughts on that match and how might it affect this one?
moopie: What STX showed last time was that players like Bogus and Frozean shouldn't be underestimated. KT on the other hand had a slight relapse to the 08-09 KTFlash days. I don't think it will have a bearing on today's match though because either of these teams on their best days can easily come out on top here.
Ideas: I think that match highlighted STX at it's best. The team definitely has potential to dominate any team in the league, it's just a matter of every player having a good night. I don't think that match will have any bearing on tonight's results though, and whichever team comes in the most prepared I think will take it.
5. The maps have changed for this season. Bloody Ridge was added to the map pool.Have you played on Bloody Ridge yet? How might the teams seek to get an advantage on that map? Would you say it is too Terran friendly because of a third gas that is hard to break?
moopie: I haven't played on it yet, though I like it a lot more after the changes they made to it since its initial version this summer. It's true that 3 and 9, as well as 6 and 12 give a good defending advantage, but that also makes them prime recall targets, and a stasis on the ramp will hurt Terrans quite a bit. I expect a pretty balanced matchup list on this map, which is a very welcome change after Protoss Central.
Ideas: I haven't played on it yet but it looks like a really fun map. On one hand it looks like it might be very terran mech-turtle favored, but on the other hand it seems insanely easy for a zerg or protoss to get 4 gas up and easily defend it all. Right now I can't make a prediction on whether or not the map will favor any race too much, but let's all hope it doesn't turn out to be a mirror-only map.
6. Perhaps the greatest difference between the previous round and this one is the removal of PvP haven Central Plains. KT had a bad streak on that map, and STX’s PvP sniper Shuttle is a lot harder to utilize now. Is that a good development in general or would you like to see it return?
moopie: I think it is. Having a map that is more open to all 3 races makes sniping harder, which means more generally solid players will prevail. It is a lot more exciting seeing the coaches succeed in reading the other team on open maps than having a matchup that is always predetermined on a map. I wouldn't mind seeing Central Plains return after the middle has been reworked.
Ideas: Honestly I think this helps STX a lot. Shuttle was used a lot on the map but actually lost a lot on it. With it gone I assume STX won't be using shuttle (whose been pretty shaky this season) EVERY match any more and we will probably see more variety in the STX lineup now, assuming bloody ridge doesnt turn into a ZvZ or TvT fest and STX just uses modesty or last on it all the time.
7. And since I love talking about maps so much, Fortress, a tricky map is missing from Sundays selection. fOrGG and Frozen were played a lot on this map, where might we see them this time, if at all?
moopie: Grand Line is always a possibility, as is Benzene. I hope we get to see one of them be the first T to play Bloody Ridge live though.
Ideas: KT would be stupid not to use ForGG. STX is a little weak vs terrans and he is probably the 3rd most consistent player on KT. Frozen hasn't been nearly as valuable to STX since the end of round 5 last season, so I don't expect him to come out tonight. But you never know.
8. Lets assume that the game reaches the ACE match. Flash, KT-s trademark player is 9-1 this PL, while Kal, STX-s best performing player is only 5-2. Will Kal even stand a chance? Or will we see something completely different instead, like Stats vs. hero?
moopie: I always love seeing Kal vs Flash, those matches are pretty exciting (even if the outcome isn't). I usually cheer for Kal, because I know he has what it takes but always falls just a bit short. However, with Aztec being the ACE, I expect KT to send Stats. STX has its choice of Calm, Kal or possibly even shuttle if they are thinking along the same lines.
Ideas: think KT is stupid to not use flash for every ace match, losing streak or not. Stats doesnt really seem like a good choice for ace as STX will almost surely send out kal or calm, both of whom are favored vs stats. I think calm can have what it takes to beat flash, and so if he wins his first match I predict he will be sent for ace, otherwise it will be kal vs flash.
9. Please comment on KT-s new uniforms.
moopie: I seem to be in the minority that likes them quite a bit. The black ones were certainly awesome, but the new ones seem more professional and remind me of CJ's old jackets.
Ideas: meh. you only get to see them for like 1% of the time anyway lol.
10. How will Round 2 in ProLeague play out? Will SKT remain undefeated? Who will rise, who will fall?
moopie: SKT will probably end up still first overall due to round 1's amazing performance, but they won't be undefeated anymore (maybe 7-2 for the round). I also expect good things from KT this round, maybe end up around 5th place. MBC's lack of depth will probably cause it to tumble a few spots, and Oz should overtake ACE.
Ideas: It's hard to see SKT1 not staying on top, and it will be interesting to see if Bisu can maintain his dominance for another round. I think if anyone tops SKT1 it will definitely be Stars, who just seem to be getting better and better each week. I think STX is going to have a good round as well, but I'm really bad at predictions lol. if I had to pick right now, I'd say that the top 3 teams will be SKT1, woongjin, and STX in that order.
Extra: Any last words?
moopie: I want good matches tonight, I'll be cheering for both teams.
Ideas: I really think that STX is going to be playing some good SC this round, much better than the 1st round. I also hope we get to see Calm play fewer ZvZs and more non-mirrors, as I think he's got a lot of spark back and that's always really fun to watch.
On November 25 2010 05:50 vishrut wrote: just out of curiosity, why did the op need the second post for the recommended and polls? I see that a lot in the LR threads
It's a personal preference. It gives me less visual clutter when editing.
I would like to see fOrGG vs Calm (no frog vs clam pls ) for a sick TvZ, Flash vs Kal, we'll probably get Shuttle vs Stats on Central Plains, then it depends on how the STX coach can predict when KT will send Action. Action will Crush any terran like Frozen or Bogus, but will probably lose if he's sniped by Modesty
Two imploding teams playing each other, should be fairly interesting to see how they fare against each other. Personally I think STX has the upper hand because the Kal/Calm/Shuttle trio is generally pretty good always.
I don't think I can stomach a Kal vs Flash rematch. All of their games are long and pretty painful to watch, with Kal losing by having all his bases destroyed and getting mined out.
Nervous for KT here. Stats recently lost his PvP ace match. Action looked pretty bad in round 1, especially in ZvZ and in his early-midgame ZvT. And 3 KT players just lost on the same day of OSL qualifiers. I'd bet on Flash/ForGG to pick up wins, but if Modesty hits Action or Stats hits Calm it's over for KT.
Lee Young Ho Hwaiting !! I don't have any prediction because KT's performance has not been impressive so far, but hopefully this time they'll manage to take the win !
On November 25 2010 08:46 KasPra wrote: Oh wow so much positive feeback about my banner ^_^ Thanks.
I hope Flash takes 2 games here!
Your banner is awesome. Actually, the entire OP is awesome.
I think STX is the slight favorite here, but both of these teams have been rather inconsistent as of late, so I wouldn't be surprised by almost any result.
Updated the OP with the answers of our fans: moopie and Ideas! A special thank you to them for answering on such a short notice and filling in for the admirable ones that were caught up in real-life matters this time. I hope you enjoy the Q&A!
On November 28 2010 09:02 BlackMagister wrote: Is it just me or does Calm look kind of crazy in the banner, like he's about to eat whatever he's holding.
It would be super scary if the matches tonight wouldnt be played because of the conflict at the border. I guess not, because it hasnt escalated (yet) and i guess city life proceeds normally.
On November 28 2010 11:58 night terrors wrote: It would be super scary if the matches tonight wouldnt be played because of the conflict at the border. I guess not, because it hasnt escalated (yet) and i guess city life proceeds normally.
Im still anxious, tho.
i think the soccer finals between KT and STX were cancelled due to artillery.
Wow, amazing OP. Thanks for the huge effort you must've put into it!
Expecting an exciting series, results don't really matter to me if the matches are a great watch. Nonetheless, the KT fan in me wishes for Stats, Action, ForGG to show what they're capable of. Anyppi(oh man really disappointed by his 0-2 showing in mst) Tempest(you can certainly do better than 0-7) Roo should make use of the opportunity to impress if they're sent out, too.
Hey - a question to y'all - since pre-match interviews seem to be appreciated, we could set up a "pool" of volunteer (and hopefully informed) interviewees for each team, and then LR threadmakers could contact an interviewee for each team facing off in a match a few days in advance to set up more of these interviews for LR threads...
Calm vs. Flash is always an exciting affair. Especially when Calm does an incredibly smart cheese but looks stupid because Flash starsense. Still remember that 2hat lurks game, Flash built bunkers before he even scouted it? Not to mention their series in EVER. That was just amazing.
On November 28 2010 13:04 Neverhood wrote: If for some reason Calm brings his A game I think this is gonna be an epic game...only if Calm plays up to his potential though -.-
If only ____ played up to his potential is a constant lament
On November 28 2010 12:54 night terrors wrote: hope Calm and Kal avoid Flash. I'd say id like for them to play and win versus him but thats just too far out. I need the points for my FPL.
Edit: Oh Flash can have Bogus, he's on my anti so it's all good.
On November 28 2010 12:54 night terrors wrote: hope Calm and Kal avoid Flash. I'd say id like for them to play and win versus him but thats just too far out. I need the points for my FPL.
Edit: Oh Flash can have Bogus, he's on my anti so it's all good.
On November 28 2010 13:05 POWEROUTAGE wrote: Calm vs. Flash is always an exciting affair. Especially when Calm does an incredibly smart cheese but looks stupid because Flash starsense. Still remember that 2hat lurks game, Flash built bunkers before he even scouted it? Not to mention their series in EVER. That was just amazing.
fuck this couldn't be going any worse for my FPL whoops nvm i guess i was half asleep and dont remember changing it, but calm isn't on my fpl team. o____O
Probably the best draw KT could've gotten. Taking out one of STX's best players with Flash is gonna ease the pressure for the rest of KT's squad. also lolflashrape
On November 28 2010 13:21 thopol wrote: Calm had that! What the hell?
Went straight from a big advantage against Flash to playing like Modesty. Sad day.
Problems aside, I'm not too confident that KT can win the 2 more games needed.
He didn't have any real advantage... Flash saved all his SCVs, only lost a handful of goliaths, and just lifted his cc and was only delayed 2 minutes while Calm played with himself behind his monitor.
A big thing there was the +1. Goliaths with +1 armor +1 attack are soooooooooo much better against hydras. Calm was expecting more tanks afterwards so hydra/queen could work really well. If you broodling the tanks then hydras do alright against goliaths. But Flash just rolled over him with a bigger army thanks to a very small tank count, thus making Calm's giant investment basically useless.
Well I don't think Flash was that behind at all, he barely loss any SCV's and took minimal losses to clean up Calm's lurkers. Meanwhile Calm sacrificed so much early economy without doing much.
Flash outthought Calm, and Calm had little means of scouting. The reasonable response to mass goliath is mass hydra, and this has to be countered by mass tanks. The queens were there to counter the tank mass while receiving minimum damage from the goliaths.
On November 28 2010 13:24 calvinL wrote: Well I don't think Flash was that behind at all, he barely loss any SCV's and took minimal losses to clean up Calm's lurkers. Meanwhile Calm sacrificed so much early economy without doing much.
Then he just sat there, no harass.. double expand and hope Flash doesn't attack? Yeah.. Calm had no gameplan after the lurker-ling attack failed.
On November 28 2010 13:25 mustaju wrote: Flash outthought Calm, and Calm had little means of scouting. The reasonable response to mass goliath is mass hydra, and this has to be countered by mass tanks. The queens were there to counter the tank mass while receiving minimum damage from the goliaths.
Queens are not a viable counter to mass tanks. It's just cute shit that's a waste of resources. Ask Kwanro in his "epic" broodling-ultra strategy vs Flash >_<
1. His opponent puts him under early pressure. 2. He doesn't panic and defends 3. His opponent thinks "oh shit I've got Flash under pressure" then proceeds to play defensively 4. Flash macros up and then rolls over his opponent
Ofc it's not that simple. Flash's decision-making is awesome, he doesn't make many mistakes, and his macro under pressure is impressive. Still, I swear he wins a lot of games b/c players are mentally intimidated by him, and when the pressure comes on they lose their composure.
On November 28 2010 13:25 mustaju wrote: Flash outthought Calm, and Calm had little means of scouting. The reasonable response to mass goliath is mass hydra, and this has to be countered by mass tanks. The queens were there to counter the tank mass while receiving minimum damage from the goliaths.
Queens are not a viable counter to mass tanks. It's just cute shit that's a waste of resources. Ask Kwanro in his "epic" broodling-ultra strategy vs Flash >_<
I agree. It takes 150 energy to cast and Queens die pretty easily to gollies too, in fact in the kwanro game they did jack shit and died before they did anything of note.
On November 28 2010 13:28 Warpath wrote: The replay showed that during the entire attack flash lost: 2 Supply Depots Refinery 5 Gols 2 Vultures
compared to several lings and almost a dozen lurkers
I tuned in late and just watched that replay and nothing else of a fairly successful attack. I was mildly surprised that to see KT 1-0 there until I realized it was Flash playing.
i REALLY REALLY REAAALLLLYYY hope Anytime being put out by OZ is a sign that........ REACH will be put forth by KT!!! Make it happen KT!!! forget hoejja and tempest! they slumping too much!
You shouldn't talk about the other match in this thread - some people watch one series live and the other as vods and these statements would be spoilers for them
On November 28 2010 13:31 gostunv wrote: i REALLY REALLY REAAALLLLYYY hope Anytime being put out by OZ is a sign that........ REACH will be put forth by KT!!! Make it happen KT!!! forget hoejja and tempest! they slumping too much!
On November 28 2010 13:29 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: This set is so typically Flash.
1. His opponent puts him under early pressure. 2. He doesn't panic and defends 3. His opponent thinks "oh shit I've got Flash under pressure" then proceeds to play defensively 4. Flash macros up and then rolls over his opponent
Ofc it's not that simple. Flash's decision-making is awesome, he doesn't make many mistakes, and his macro under pressure is impressive. Still, I swear he wins a lot of games b/c players are mentally intimidated by him, and when the pressure comes on they lose their composure.
yeah, I wanted Calm to win, but seeing him so easily destroyed gives Flash much credit, indeed this is the way u should play to win. Just after Calm lost about 8 drones Flash engaged on an attack, Calm simply didn't have enough resources (except qeeens)) to counter a massive 6 fac or so army
one vulture finds the warping nex at 10, lays a few mines - which takes out a goon observer seeing Bogus move out with 6 tank ++ a handful of vultures - observer following, stats adding citadel and another 2 gates (to 5) but Bogus just sets up on his highground and adds a turret
lol - probes maynard towards 10 - vultures find them and they back off - vultures duck away, probes come back, and the vultures come back despite some goons around vultures still net a good number of kills
3 vultures try visiting the lower ramp to 10 - held off by pylon wall - heading north, they are finished off by the waiting goons stats clears out the mines they left behind janitor duty for the poor goons
zealots taking out turrets at 2.5 bogus is going to get overrun soon if he doesn't do anything but now he pushes - with a vessel stats giving ground for now, his arb was emp'd
stats adding another 6 gateways - wait, and another 4 at his SW base wow
Bogus's army just steamrolling towards stats' megachoke a crap storm - well a few better storms now - but Bogus with so many tanks and stats with...nothing
and what happened to his recall? failed completely? there's no yellow at 2 anymore
On November 28 2010 13:48 Zona wrote: Bogus's army just steamrolling towards stats' megachoke a crap storm - well a few better storms now - but Bogus with so many tanks and stats with...nothing
and what happened to his recall? failed completely? there's no yellow at 2 anymore
He recalled on the other side of the wallin that Bogus had built with like 3/4 tanks and a bunch of mines on the other side of it. So basically that recall ported in right on top of a death trap =[.
stats gets his one arbiter emp'd as he dribbles forces from below against bogus's army bogus's tanks clump as they siege but stats can't take advantage now sbogus's army just pushing stats away southwards
stats finally clearing out the 4 or so tanks left at his main
bogus now sieging up 8 with the majority of his army - stats folding like a house of cards - wow bogus with BM expo at 10? it's denied though as stats finds it
Stats taking his natural again - Bogus siging up north of stat's base at 7 nice stasis - the remaining tanks stormed bogus now in bad shape...now his army is decimated
stats never kept his army together (or in a few groups to flank) to deal a huge blow to bogus's army - bogus kept his army together and is winning engagements this way
Honestly there were a lot of problems with Stats' game but recalling 30 food worth of units to their immediate demise when he needed them to defend the death push was probably the clincher. Shit was Jaehoon esque in it's efficacy.
On November 28 2010 13:56 DminusTerran wrote: Honestly there were a lot of problems with Stats' game but recalling 30 food worth of units to their immediate demise when he needed them to defend the death push was probably the clincher. Shit was Jaehoon esque in it's efficacy.
When I saw it was literally shocked... Why would you ever want to do that...
On November 28 2010 13:55 letian wrote: well played by Bogus, toss needs just one mistake to lose these times, eh Stats
except stats made plenty more than just "one mistake"
Seriously, the whole game was just one big mistake by stats. I am so disappointed with Stats. Bogus just play average, nothing special. But Stats, omg, I don't even want to think about it.
I agree that Bogus played impeccably. His opponent was making mistakes, but Bogus had a very solid game, leaving no chinks in his armor, and making very sound choices with where to move his forces.
The worst part is that Stats SAW what a horrible recall location that was. He SAW the tanks sieged up and also Bogus' army in the middle.
The Terran rape train was chugging along the middle and he just recalled half his troops from the mid into a narrow choke where siege tanks could just destroy his entire recall easily.
Stats would have won so easily if not for that one stupid recall.
I think us KT fans are more upset at Stats than we should because we know he can be much more capable than that; he can certainly up his level and play like the second coming of Stork but games like that are simply not acceptable
On November 28 2010 14:00 moopie wrote: Stats should have just kept expoing until Bogus repositions to take a 4th and then crush him. That recall was so poorly timed :/
He might have thought Bogus didn't rebuild the Turrets yet. Unfortunately for KT, he did.
On November 28 2010 14:00 moopie wrote: Stats should have just kept expoing until Bogus repositions to take a 4th and then crush him. That recall was so poorly timed :/
Ironically Stats' timing of when and where to attack was impeccable last season. He seemed to have regressed in that aspect, especially when you see games like vs. Leta and the abomination we just witnessed.
Hopefully it's just a mental issue that'll just clear up in time, because he has really shown great promise in his play last season.
Wow that building layout at Bogus's 3rd was EXCELLENT against recalls - walling the south from the mineral line, with turrets forcing the arbiter to have to recall before getting further in
On November 28 2010 14:00 moopie wrote: Stats should have just kept expoing until Bogus repositions to take a 4th and then crush him. That recall was so poorly timed :/
Ironically Stats' timing of when and where to attack was impeccable last season. He seemed to have regressed in that aspect, especially when you see games like vs. Leta and the abomination we just witnessed.
Hopefully it's just a mental issue that'll just clear up in time, because he has really shown great promise in his play last season.
Was it consistently good last season? I did see some games where he was brilliant but from the limited games I watched it didn't seem like he was strong all the time...
On November 28 2010 14:00 moopie wrote: Stats should have just kept expoing until Bogus repositions to take a 4th and then crush him. That recall was so poorly timed :/
Ironically Stats' timing of when and where to attack was impeccable last season. He seemed to have regressed in that aspect, especially when you see games like vs. Leta and the abomination we just witnessed.
Hopefully it's just a mental issue that'll just clear up in time, because he has really shown great promise in his play last season.
Was it consistently good last season? I did see some games where he was brilliant but from the limited games I watched it didn't seem like he was strong all the time...
Stats was specifically the most consistently excellent protoss around last season. Everyone's criticism of him was "Well he's only really good in every matchup."
On November 28 2010 14:00 moopie wrote: Stats should have just kept expoing until Bogus repositions to take a 4th and then crush him. That recall was so poorly timed :/
Ironically Stats' timing of when and where to attack was impeccable last season. He seemed to have regressed in that aspect, especially when you see games like vs. Leta and the abomination we just witnessed.
Hopefully it's just a mental issue that'll just clear up in time, because he has really shown great promise in his play last season.
Was it consistently good last season? I did see some games where he was brilliant but from the limited games I watched it didn't seem like he was strong all the time...
I'd say so. He wasn't just good, he was consistently good, be it in PL or individual leagues. His games against Sea and Zero come to mind. Utterly demolished them when people predicted easy wins for them both. His sense was till evident in his first R1 game against Fantasy, though that was more of bad play on the Fanta's part.
Last season his games literally had no weak points bar against Jaedong.
violet blows 8 scarabs to take down a pylon not profitable for him
forge/archives starting for violet archives (maybe a forge?) for shuttle? 2 reavers dropped in shuttle's nat - one reaver destroyed!, not much damage to the probes?
violet's shuttl emoving up the right of the map - past one of shuttle's pylon - storm drop on 3! probes already running, only a few kills shuttle dies on the way out
storm drop on violet's nat - a storm on shuttle's 2 reavers but they live in the red shuttle taking a 4th at 12, observer sees it shuttle streaming lots of zealot/templar to the west
On November 28 2010 14:23 mmp wrote: zealot flank!
not a zealot flank - it's "damn my zealots were wandering the east of the map - now I'll bring them to the fight after I lose half my army"
shuttle with storm/reaver takes control of the left ridge - moves to violet's nat - violet defends well with storms and holds for now but a templar left alone storms more probes
Violet's unit control is now by far the worst of any A-team Protoss I've seen this season. Pretty far cry from the guy who pulled off maelstrom-psi storm on mutas.
GG long overdue. Violet was fucked after he got caught out of position twice.
I mean his decision to split his army and send his zealots to only known to him destination can rival Stats's decision to recall a well defended 3rd when the death push just started...
On November 28 2010 14:29 Wings wrote: I am very confused as to how KT wins Proleague for the first time and suddenly turns around the next season. Ridiculous.
What is more ridiculous that the players that were really solid play like total garbage. I mean these games by Violet and Stats were just horrid...
How was that a bad game? Shuttle won it in a decisive battle with solid storms, gaining a materiel advantage that he pushed to the win. Violet knew he was behind but figured that with good storming or harass and mistakes from his opponent he could pull it out. It was a good game IMO.
On November 28 2010 14:29 Wings wrote: I am very confused as to how KT wins Proleague for the first time and suddenly turns around the next season. Ridiculous.
bo7 doesn't seem to suit there style. SKT on the other hand >.>
On November 28 2010 14:30 thopol wrote: How was that a bad game? Shuttle won it in a decisive battle with solid storms, gaining a materiel advantage that he pushed to the win. Violet knew he was behind but figured that with good storming or harass and mistakes from his opponent he could pull it out. It was a good game IMO.
Agreed, Shuttle also managed to keep his shuttle/reavers alive for the majority of the game (something most people fail to do). In every major battle, they helped tremendously.
It was bad because Violet funneled his army through a shitty choke and got caught doing it, when there was no reason to. Then he sent off a giant chunk of his army to attack an expansion and got countered because, go figure, shuttle had observers to spot the dumb attack and countered with his comparatively bigger army. Violet made awful decisions and got rolled because of it.
On November 28 2010 14:29 Wings wrote: I am very confused as to how KT wins Proleague for the first time and suddenly turns around the next season. Ridiculous.
bo7 doesn't seem to suit there style. SKT on the other hand >.>
I agree it does seem like it. But once their regulars start winning again should be fine.
On November 28 2010 14:29 Wings wrote: I am very confused as to how KT wins Proleague for the first time and suddenly turns around the next season. Ridiculous.
What is more ridiculous that the players that were really solid play like total garbage. I mean these games by Violet and Stats were just horrid...
Nay, they just won PL.... its understandable that they're still slacking around. They'll start picking their weight soon hopefully
I think the general sentiment of people not recommending it is that it was really passive until the final few minutes of the game, and those few minutes were characterised by a large amount of fail by violet and thus not worth the time.
Action vs. Classic. Expecting a good game. With defilers.
Has anyone noticed Action looks especially badass today? Maybe it's the uniform and the new haircut, looks really good on him.
On November 28 2010 14:29 Wings wrote: I am very confused as to how KT wins Proleague for the first time and suddenly turns around the next season. Ridiculous.
bo7 doesn't seem to suite there style. SKT on the other hand >.>
For the 111th time, it's not the Bo7 format. KT players had a win rate of something like 80% at the start of last season.
Possibly it's the lack pre-announced lineups, the lack of Luxury, players from all other teams improving while KT players still play like it's 2009, etc...
On November 28 2010 14:36 POWEROUTAGE wrote: I think the general sentiment of people not recommending it is that it was really passive until the final few minutes of the game, and those few minutes were characterised by a large amount of fail by violet and thus not worth the time.
Action vs. Classic. Expecting a good game. With defilers.
Has anyone noticed Action looks especially badass today? Maybe it's the uniform and the new haircut, looks really good on him.
On November 28 2010 14:36 POWEROUTAGE wrote: I think the general sentiment of people not recommending it is that it was really passive until the final few minutes of the game, and those few minutes were characterised by a large amount of fail by violet and thus not worth the time.
Action vs. Classic. Expecting a good game. With defilers.
Has anyone noticed Action looks especially badass today? Maybe it's the uniform and the new haircut, looks really good on him.
On November 28 2010 14:36 tomatriedes wrote: Action hasn't been playing great against terrans recently.
Terrans learned that if you go for a pre-hive timing push, Action just dies. Most of the time.
And that Action's timings have been really off. He's just not yet acclimatised to the new environment it seems. He's said that he has the worst record in practice too.
On November 28 2010 14:29 Wings wrote: I am very confused as to how KT wins Proleague for the first time and suddenly turns around the next season. Ridiculous.
bo7 doesn't seem to suite there style. SKT on the other hand >.>
For the 111th time, it's not the Bo7 format. KT players had a win rate of something like 80% at the start of last season.
Possibly it's the lack pre-announced lineups, the lack of Luxury, players from all other teams improving while KT players still play like it's 2009, etc...
If KT players still played like it was 2009, they'd be doing pretty well I reckon
On November 28 2010 14:36 tomatriedes wrote: Action hasn't been playing great against terrans recently.
Terrans learned that if you go for a pre-hive timing push, Action just dies. Most of the time.
And that Action's timings have been really off. He's just not yet acclimatised to the new environment it seems. He's said that he has the worst record in practice too.
hmm, many coaches don't send out players with poor records in the practice house, yet Action's getting playtime?
On November 28 2010 14:29 Wings wrote: I am very confused as to how KT wins Proleague for the first time and suddenly turns around the next season. Ridiculous.
bo7 doesn't seem to suite there style. SKT on the other hand >.>
For the 111th time, it's not the Bo7 format. KT players had a win rate of something like 80% at the start of last season.
Possibly it's the lack pre-announced lineups, the lack of Luxury, players from all other teams improving while KT players still play like it's 2009, etc...
If KT players still played like it was 2009, they'd be doing pretty well I reckon
What I'm saying is obviously that their players look like they haven't adapted to one year of improvements in strategy and technique.
Anyway KT was tearing shit up last year at this time, with Luxury still on the team and killing everyone, and Violet was on some absurd win streak instead of eating a bunch of losses like how he is now
KT got into the finals last year because of their stellar R1 performance
On November 28 2010 14:36 tomatriedes wrote: Action hasn't been playing great against terrans recently.
Terrans learned that if you go for a pre-hive timing push, Action just dies. Most of the time.
And that Action's timings have been really off. He's just not yet acclimatised to the new environment it seems. He's said that he has the worst record in practice too.
hmm, many coaches don't send out players with poor records in the practice house, yet Action's getting playtime?
a shot of Flash staring at the game
hidden fact at 12.5
He did pretty well in the televised ZvZs and the alternatives are Tempest, Anyppi and Roo; they haven't been inspiring either.
mnm/valk against muta/ling scoruge at classic's nat - a few lings get into the main but mnm hold that was an AWFUL attack - why attack such a fortified position?
On November 28 2010 14:29 Wings wrote: I am very confused as to how KT wins Proleague for the first time and suddenly turns around the next season. Ridiculous.
What is more ridiculous that the players that were really solid play like total garbage. I mean these games by Violet and Stats were just horrid...
Nay, they just won PL.... its understandable that they're still slacking around. They'll start picking their weight soon hopefully
On November 28 2010 14:52 tomatriedes wrote: This season Flash knows what it's like to be Jaedong.
Rofl, Flash felt like that long before Jaedong. Flash was the sole beacon on his team in 2007-2008. Oz only became Jaedong Oz in late 08 to early 09 when anytime and forgg left.
Hoejja can get himself a BO win and ride it to victory...and if he loses at least it won't be some 30 min drawn out game, it'll be a quick execution to end the pain
On November 28 2010 14:52 tomatriedes wrote: This season Flash knows what it's like to be Jaedong.
For most, if not all, of Flash's career has basically been him moving KT/KTF somewhere. Even when he was still a cheesy scrub, he was the dude winning the majority of KT's games while people like rA basically lost every game they played.
You could argue that Jaedong doesn't know what its like being the Child Labor terran because even when he lost, it didn't matter because Forgg, Anytime, and the other Oz players like Backho/Hiya/Lomo who were actually pretty decent to good at the time could take the slack from him easily.
mutas take down one of hoejja's ol's hoejja's mutas idle in his main - 2 scourge check out hero's main though but back off as hero starts to control his mutas
On November 28 2010 14:52 tomatriedes wrote: This season Flash knows what it's like to be Jaedong.
For most, if not all, of Flash's career has basically been him moving KT/KTF somewhere. Even when he was still a cheesy scrub, he was the dude winning the majority of KT's games while people like rA basically lost every game they played.
You could argue that Jaedong doesn't know what its like being the Child Labor terran because even when he lost, it didn't matter because Forgg, Anytime, and the other Oz players like Backho/Hiya/Lomo who were actually pretty decent to good at the time could take the slack from him easily.
Lol, yeah. Flash's Korean nickname is 소년가장... which is basically the term used for when the child is the head of the household.
You would think that practising with the best player in the world would be beneficial. Instead Flash just seems to steal their souls. I mean, fOrGG won a league before he came to KT!
On November 28 2010 15:19 J1.au wrote: You would think that practising with the best player in the world would be beneficial. Instead Flash just seems to steal their souls. I mean, fOrGG won a league before he came to KT!
As much as it sounds surreal, it seems to be the case TT. It looks as if Flash absorbs all the energy and skill from his teammates to make him the best player.
On November 28 2010 15:19 J1.au wrote: You would think that practising with the best player in the world would be beneficial. Instead Flash just seems to steal their souls. I mean, fOrGG won a league before he came to KT!
That's true. A normal person would really think " what is the Fxxking point playing against Flash or playing starcraft?"
Might be that's also the reason why OZ is ranked last...
When you have the best player winning every single time, it takes your initiative away.....
I guess the coach needs to do something in this kind of situation.....
Yeah I'm not too familiar with progaming but KT seems to have good players, I don't understand how they fail so hard. Is that related to coaching decisions? Like sending the wrong players on the wrong maps or anything like that? Losing 4-1 is so embarrassing especially when the only win is by Flash.
On November 28 2010 15:02 mustaju wrote: Please don't be such defeatists, KT fans. This is still Starcraft, everything might happen.
It didn't. There.
Well, being negative about it didn't help either, did it?
Being positive didn't help, either!
But atleast I didn't have my hope dashed.
On November 28 2010 15:22 AlBundy wrote: Yeah I'm not too familiar with progaming but KT seems to have good players, I don't understand how they fail so hard. Is that related to coaching decisions? Like sending the wrong players on the wrong maps or anything like that? Losing 4-1 is so embarrassing especially when the only win is by Flash.
The coaches got excellent matchups. Flash vs Calm is great, Stats vs Bogus is an absolute knockout for KT(I still don't know what that was), while shuttle is really good at PvP, It's also violet's best matchup, but again he floundered his position. Action SEEMINGLY would be good vT, especially a former teammate when every Estro interview talked about how amazing Action was etc etc. Hoejja vs anything isn't really good though.
KT might've just barely pulled through if they could've gotten ForGG vs one of the STXzergs, but even then it would've been a 4-2 with pretty good matchups for KT. KT is just sucking.
On November 28 2010 15:22 AlBundy wrote: Yeah I'm not too familiar with progaming but KT seems to have good players, I don't understand how they fail so hard. Is that related to coaching decisions? Like sending the wrong players on the wrong maps or anything like that? Losing 4-1 is so embarrassing especially when the only win is by Flash.
KT does have good players, but tbh none of them were that great in the individual leagues (save flash ofc). KT. I think a lot of their names are inflated b/c of their association with KT and Flash. After winning the championship, I think they got a little bit too arrogant.
On November 28 2010 15:02 mustaju wrote: Please don't be such defeatists, KT fans. This is still Starcraft, everything might happen.
It didn't. There.
Well, being negative about it didn't help either, did it?
Being positive didn't help, either!
But atleast I didn't have my hope dashed.
While false hope isn't good, I wouldn't say such attitudes didn't do good. Hoejja might have sniped Kal, and forgg has a good chance against Hero. It was realistic, and in ACE, KT has the upper hand again.
I don't think that all of KT could've just decided to slump at once. When STX did it, it was because of an obvious reason(Kal<Effort and Clam<JD), but KT has no such reason. Internal problems perhaps?
Its not like everybody ONLY plays against Flash during practice. No reason why they should be suddenly allergic to winning. Either they need more practice time, or they need a lil breather to compose themselves.
Or they need to let Reach play. I'm guessing they are waiting for his sexy hair to come back before they put him on.
On November 28 2010 15:44 gostunv wrote: Its not like everybody ONLY plays against Flash during practice. No reason why they should be suddenly allergic to winning. Either they need more practice time, or they need a lil breather to compose themselves.
Or they need to let Reach play. I'm guessing they are waiting for his sexy hair to come back before they put him on.
Hope to see better from the rest in 2 days time. This kind of abject performance is simply not tolerable especially after the huge strides the team made during last season.
On November 28 2010 15:55 POWEROUTAGE wrote: Hope to see better from the rest in 2 days time. This kind of abject performance is simply not tolerable especially after the huge strides the team made during last season.
Rising new protoss star of last season, capable of consistently beating players like Fantasy, Sea and Zero, check.
Past OSL winner, macro monster and walking clock terran, check.
Captain whose solidness last season prompted fans to remark that he is a hiya-calibre(pre-slump) deputy, check.
Zerg who was good enough to roll hwasin and give the incumbent bonjwa the game of his life in TvZ, check.
Now someone tell me wtf is wrong. On paper, great. In practice...shit hits the fan.
I'd only agree with 2.5 from that list. The first two yes. Action's late game is great but getting there has always been a problem (hence the 0.5). Forgg and Violet are past their prime. Forgg MAY be able to pick up some form again but I doubt he'll be on the same level as he was when he won that OSL. Violet acquired the captaincy this season and that's pretty much goodbye unless he passes it on someone else and starts practicing like crazy to improve his game.
Sorry for the stream crash earlier guys. I have absolutely no idea what happened; I think my ISPs connection crapped out or something, because everything on my local network was functional.
Guys KT is just taking the same path Flash took to greatness. Win 1 league --> lose next 8 or so in hilarious fashion --> win for rest of time. Just give it... 4 years or so
oh my.. this is getting kind of ugh... first i liked it how kt lost all but one set, but now i'm feeling just a little bit bad for Flash... oh well....
On November 28 2010 14:52 tomatriedes wrote: This season Flash knows what it's like to be Jaedong.
For most, if not all, of Flash's career has basically been him moving KT/KTF somewhere. Even when he was still a cheesy scrub, he was the dude winning the majority of KT's games while people like rA basically lost every game they played.
You could argue that Jaedong doesn't know what its like being the Child Labor terran because even when he lost, it didn't matter because Forgg, Anytime, and the other Oz players like Backho/Hiya/Lomo who were actually pretty decent to good at the time could take the slack from him easily.
Lol, yeah. Flash's Korean nickname is 소년가장... which is basically the term used for when the child is the head of the household.
Ha, yeah, you guys are right. I had forgotten how bad the rest of KT used to be before their more recent dominating streak. However to womwomwom I think you're forgetting about about the period of time after Forgg left and while anytime was away and when Hiya became inconsistent. At that time Jaedong really did have the KTFlash experience. I remember there being a lot of 1-3 results with Ggaemo and Killer always letting the team down.
tomatreides-you can tell from his AirforceACE games, that ggaemo is definitely not bad. And now the complaints...
Where the hell is Reach? Why the hell is that scrub Action playing? What the frak is the coach thinking? Now I'm glad I didn't stay up to watch this tragedy. STX is undoubtedly a good team, but in my opinion KT should do better than a mandatory Flash win.
On November 28 2010 14:52 tomatriedes wrote: This season Flash knows what it's like to be Jaedong.
For most, if not all, of Flash's career has basically been him moving KT/KTF somewhere. Even when he was still a cheesy scrub, he was the dude winning the majority of KT's games while people like rA basically lost every game they played.
You could argue that Jaedong doesn't know what its like being the Child Labor terran because even when he lost, it didn't matter because Forgg, Anytime, and the other Oz players like Backho/Hiya/Lomo who were actually pretty decent to good at the time could take the slack from him easily.
Lol, yeah. Flash's Korean nickname is 소년가장... which is basically the term used for when the child is the head of the household.
Ha, yeah, you guys are right. I had forgotten how bad the rest of KT used to be before their more recent dominating streak. However to womwomwom I think you're forgetting about about the period of time after Forgg left and while anytime was away and when Hiya became inconsistent. At that time Jaedong really did have the KTFlash experience. I remember there being a lot of 1-3 results with Ggaemo and Killer always letting the team down.
Of course I know that time, but the fact I was making was that Jaedong's whole career wasn't basically made up by teammates who don't give a shit about playing well or even trying beyond appearing on TV. Even in both Proleague Finals, when Jaedong failed his team was still good enough to win or put Oz in a good position.
From Flash's debut he was forced to carry the team. You can't compare the two, especially since Oz didn't have such nice fellows like a match fixer (Luxury's performance was way too erratic for me to believe he only threw one or two games) or teammates who wanted their own team members to lose so they could get some screen time or thought rubbish like "hurry up and lose because you have no chance of winning" (refer to Violet's interview with Teamliquid).
Seems like the same KT is back because the whole team is performing awfully, even guys who are normally fairly good like Stats. The same environment that turned Luxury and Forgg into pretty worthless players. Oz might do badly but they at least seem to try and feel really, really bad when they lose; everyone on 08-09 KTF besides Flash deserved to retire.
On November 28 2010 20:47 Ikonn wrote: well this is all getting a little pathetic. Can we please just skip this round and go straight to Winners League?
no point doing that really because in the play-off KT would get trashed again :/
Calm down, we've been there before. KTFlash will just suck, Flash will win everything, then they'll stop sucking for a while and Flash will still win everything. Such is the nature of our universe.
On November 28 2010 23:18 johanes wrote: Calm down, we've been there before. KTFlash will just suck, Flash will win everything, then they'll stop sucking for a while and Flash will still win everything. So is the nature of our universe.
Such is also the time when SKT is 1st and KT is 2nd .. last season was a glitch in the matrix .. a disturbance in the force ..
So I wake up this morning, was out last night so I couldn't watch. Check the calendar and see that KT played, so I come to the thread hoping to see that KT smackdown'd STX after KT's miserable R1 performance.
... and then I find out NO ONE ON KT BUT FLASH CAN WIN, STILL.
What is really bad about it, is the fashion in which KT players lost. Stats's and Violet's decision making was really really bad. Recall into secured 3rd when Terran is doing death push?
I haven't seen action's and hoejja's game but I bet they didn't play well either...
On November 29 2010 05:09 Lebesgue wrote: What is really bad about it, is the fashion in which KT players lost. Stats's and Violet's decision making was really really bad. Recall into secured 3rd when Terran is doing death push?
I haven't seen action's and hoejja's game but I bet they didn't play well either...
Violet lost to Shuttle. There's really no shame in that. And I wouldn't be so hard on Action considering how flawless Classic's play was. But Stats never really deserved all the hype he had heaped on his shoulders.
On November 29 2010 08:21 amazingoopah wrote: time for KT to recruit a couple of blue chip prospects like MoustacheTerran and PirateTerran into their lineup up to back up Flash.
Also, play effing REACH for manliness points.
lol Moustacheterran. Doesn't sound as good as Moustachezerg, don't know why.
KT just has the problem to have a star player... I mean who could really want to practice against him? maybe you'll win 1 out of 10 games, but in the analysis this guy will just show you how much better he is (and before that you thought you are a good player)... not that much of a mental boost :/
I dunno, when you have one player in the team who is miles ahead of the rest, most of the coach's attention is focused on him. May not be a good thing. I remember Coach Lee travelling with Flash to WCG.
He expected to have enough hydras to destroy Flash's goliath push, in which case Flash would have added tanks (which beat out mass hydras). Queens would have broken the tank wall and allowed the hydras to crush the mech, similar to what YellOw did to BoxeR at All-Stars.
On November 28 2010 13:19 okum wrote: 1. Get lurker rushed 2. Opponent builds humiliation queens 2. Win
Its not humiliation idiot? Broodling on tanks is a valid strategy so that he could go heavy hydra safely. God reading the live reports threads is painful with the stupidity, especially the omg 'flash so sexy' posts when all he did was mech and attack at the right time to win. Everything was on Calm to have a valid follow up build planned. An obvious facet of it will be to block vulture harass. Just 3 hydras on various ramps ffs or at least a sunken here or there. then broodling every tank, hydra spam the shit out of him in the middle. It all makes sense except the failure of the harass part.
On November 28 2010 13:20 Katsuge wrote: guess i expected that once clam's lurkers got cleaned up..:>
You got 4000 posts and you don't understand that his lurkers already did the required job? I'm really surprised at the lack of strategical understanding on here, or at least completely underestimating progamers knowledge of what they are doing. How exactly did you expect the lurkers to play a part past that part of the game? He delayed nat by huge amount and gained eco advantage. Then the risky very timing critical queen strategy did not pay off, simple as that. It's a hard map vs mech on hence why i think he tried the queens to rid of the tanks, rather than throw hydras at tanked chokes.
It's usual Flash goes heavy tank/vult so i dunno if he anticipated the Queen more or not, his Goliath count made it seem like he expected a muta backstab prehaps? Either way both players did ok, Calm just needed to defend the obvious harass better.
On November 28 2010 13:24 calvinL wrote: Well I don't think Flash was that behind at all, he barely loss any SCV's and took minimal losses to clean up Calm's lurkers. Meanwhile Calm sacrificed so much early economy without doing much.
Then he just sat there, no harass.. double expand and hope Flash doesn't attack? Yeah.. Calm had no gameplan after the lurker-ling attack failed.
What, do you understand the game at all? He went lurker opening and you want him to somehow harass? Unless you want to try a basically all-in drop against range upgraded goliaths it ain't gonna happen. Of course he double expanded to catch up to a 14CC economically. Jesus christ this thread just makes me angry with people who literally think they know more than what Calm was doing. Lurker was never intended to end the game thats why he never even tried to get up the ramp. He got unlucky with drone/unit choices, Queen timing and Flash's unit composition that's all, things very hard to get right against Terran. Try actually PLAYING a ZvT sometime before talking shit.
It's arguable if the queen to counter tank strategy is very viable or not, but remember EffOrt did it in an OSL final game so its a good assumption that if done right, yes it is. And Kwanro's awful game vs Flash isn't a good indication of the strategy or not so don't even bring that up. They wouldn't attempt it at all if it didn't work in practice.
Btw one suggestion i have used and i suggest for everyone to try in regards to worker harass, (i've only seen once recently in a pro game and it wasn't intentionally planned) is to have ovie at your gas or bottom mineral then stack move your workers to the ovie (with drop researched). Instead of just making them sitting ducks moving from base to base, sometimes even moving into a second trap.
Could work for PvZ as well if you're facing an opponent who likes 4 zealot drops, although they are normally for quick tech kills. Someone might suggest simply burrow as a cheaper quicker to use alternative but a good terran will always have a quick scan at the ready and then you've just further fucked up your drones. Keep in mind ovies good for escaping drones from any situation really, people don't use it enough. Island just been dropped? Pick em up. Someone killing your nydus with no reinforcements nearby? Pick em up. Not to mention the obvious other uses of drop. Just basically use drop more, defensively as well as offensively.
On November 29 2010 08:37 Ryo wrote: I dunno, when you have one player in the team who is miles ahead of the rest, most of the coach's attention is focused on him. May not be a good thing. I remember Coach Lee travelling with Flash to WCG.
You might be right. Everyone talks about how much better the current KT coach is for Flash, but maybe in the process of helping Flash he forgot to care for his other players, resulting in their failure. That could very well be the problem.
On November 29 2010 14:25 infinity2k9 wrote: Jesus christ this thread just makes me angry with people who literally think they know more than what Calm was doing.
Chill man .. wtf? no sense getting your angry about this .. makes you look like a schmuck too.
On November 28 2010 13:19 okum wrote: 1. Get lurker rushed 2. Opponent builds humiliation queens 2. Win
Its not humiliation idiot? Broodling on tanks is a valid strategy so that he could go heavy hydra safely. God reading the live reports threads is painful with the stupidity, especially the omg 'flash so sexy' posts when all he did was mech and attack at the right time to win. Everything was on Calm to have a valid follow up build planned. An obvious facet of it will be to block vulture harass. Just 3 hydras on various ramps ffs or at least a sunken here or there. then broodling every tank, hydra spam the shit out of him in the middle. It all makes sense except the failure of the harass part.
You're just proving my point. Calm's strategy was very viable and would have worked, destroying Flash in a humiliating fashion*, had Flash not done everything right (lol, so easy, build mech and attack-move, every D+ player can win against progamers) and had Calm not screwed up.
* You don't call a lurker rush into mass spawn broodling humiliating? Other examples of "humiliating", perfectly viable strategies in SC:BW: triple bunker rush, mass speedlings against 14CC...
KT was counter-sniped in set 5, their coach was sure STX was going to send out Kal so they sent out a zerg, but not Modesty since maybe KT's coach could send out ForGG.