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On May 29 2010 19:04 Sadistx wrote:
All I'm going to say is these games feel like they were thrown all around, both the OSL and MSL (Flash letting Effort have the title and Jaedong letting Flash have the MSL title).
If you prep for 3 weeks and have NO builds that counter 14 CC (oh like I dunno 9 pool or JAEDONG SIGNATURE 2 hatch muta), then you either deserve to lose or you threw those games.
I was rooting for Flash, but Jaedong's builds could have been so much better if they were just a little bit aggressive. I swear it was like watching NR20, NR10 and NR10 games. I know they are probably honorable in not rushing each other but fuck, do what you have to do to win.
what the hell is wrong with you?
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Mech seems to no longer be a threat to Jaedong.
-I remembered something that Yarnc said. It’s been a while, so it’s a bit fuzzy, but it was something like “Mech should be saved for Protoss.” I feel the same way, and I’m fully confident. Good management and macro is the key.
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@DarkMatter_ Nicely written post. Finally someone with some common sense
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On May 29 2010 19:17 Vedic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:06 snowdrift86 wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 Emon_ wrote:
So, Effort > JD, right? A > B, B > C doesn't mean A > C. But Effort definitely showed better adaptability and didn't hold back from early aggression. Uhh, if you lay it out correctly, it would be: A > B > C So yes, A > C.
no. he is correct. just cuz one A beats player B and player B beats player C, player A doesnt automatically win against player C.
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On May 29 2010 19:16 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:06 snowdrift86 wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 Emon_ wrote:
So, Effort > JD, right? A > B, B > C doesn't mean A > C. But Effort definitely showed better adaptability and didn't hold back from early aggression. You cannot compare the series, saying effort would have won if flash did this to him. The strategies were completely different and masslings wouldn't have worked for Jaedong/Effort in this finals. The reason why flash 14CC'd so many time was because he's able to hold it on these maps, and on matchpoint he blocked of better than vs effort and scouted earlier and went vulture.
yup. some people are missing the subtleties and discounting this victory as some kind of lucky cheese... -_-
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On May 29 2010 19:10 TwoToneTerran wrote:9 pool speed still kills it. 3 hatch before pool and actually defending your expo with lings and lurkers. Jaedong should've been fine in Game 2 but he literally just suicided his two lurks without ling support into Flash's push.
Actually 9pool speed doesn't kill it.
On far pos, 9pool speed can't even beat 14CC, and if flash scouts no 12hatch he will put down rax+suply before CC and lings will be much too late.
(Since he scouted, blind 14CC with wall can be beaten by 9pool speed if the pos isn't very far)
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I find it funny that this thread only has 134 pages.
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France2061 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:17 Vedic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:06 snowdrift86 wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 Emon_ wrote:
So, Effort > JD, right? A > B, B > C doesn't mean A > C. But Effort definitely showed better adaptability and didn't hold back from early aggression. Uhh, if you lay it out correctly, it would be: A > B > C So yes, A > C.
M18M also beat Flash. Jaedong hasn't played against him -- so maybe M18M is better than Jaedong? Really?
On May 29 2010 19:19 J1.au wrote:
I find it funny that this thread only has 134 pages.
There was a lot more whining when Flash lost in the OSL.
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Flash!! I'm so happy for you! 
I always believed in you. You made us all proud today 
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TO ALL YOU IDIOTS COMPLAINING ABOUT 14CC.
14cc. is. not. cheese.
If it's such a magical defeat-all build, then look at these:
1.
On May 29 2010 18:46 cursor wrote:
Except for Flash- Zerg users really can't complain. It's hard to believe Flash is really the only one getting the results, even though he makes Terran look SO imbalanced.
2010 Hana Daetoo MSL Winner: (T)Flash
2010 Korean Air OSL Winner: (Z)EffOrt
2009 NATE 2009 MSL Winner: (Z)Jaedong
2009 EVER 2009 OSL Winner: (T)Flash
2009 Avalon MSL Winner: (Z)Calm
2009 Bacchus OSL 2009 Winner: (Z)Jaedong
2009 Lost Saga MSL Winner: (Z)Luxury
2008 Batoo OSL Winner: (Z)Jaedong
2.
Game 2 & 3 were 14cc AFTER scout 12hatch. How the HECK is that "cheese"??? It's the proper and intelligent COUNTER to 12hatch. Everyone is whining their asses off about how Flash went 14cc all 3 games, but instead ask yourself this: Why the hell did JD go 12 hatch (and 3-hatch-before-pool in one game) ALL 3 GAMES?
3.
To all those IDIOTS who obviously don't know ANYTHING about terran out there...
Firstly, Flash's wall on Match Point was NOT ling-tight. So stop whining how ling-tight 14cc = autowin.
Secondly, 14cc is what Flash was famous for... because he always LOST. He took blind risks and paid for them. So what justifies your argument that 14cc = imba?!?! The fact that most terrans LOSE when they use it? Excellent point.
4.
How the hell is the most MACRO-centered build considered "cheese" nowadays??? Correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the distinct impression that both the 12 hatch and 12 nex are NOT considered cheese. How the hell, then, is the terran version considered cheese?!?!
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On May 29 2010 19:18 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +Mech seems to no longer be a threat to Jaedong.
-I remembered something that Yarnc said. It’s been a while, so it’s a bit fuzzy, but it was something like “Mech should be saved for Protoss.” I feel the same way, and I’m fully confident. Good management and macro is the key.
It never got to a proper macro game though
On May 29 2010 19:20 Wings wrote:
4.
How the hell is the most MACRO-centered build considered "cheese" nowadays??? Correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the distinct impression that both the 12 hatch and 12 nex are NOT considered cheese. How the hell, then, is the terran version considered cheese?!?!
I'd say 12 nex is definitely considered cheese, and 12cc.. maybe blind 14cc. 12hatch is more required for zerg a lot of the time because of the fact its your production building as well.
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On May 29 2010 19:17 Vedic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:06 snowdrift86 wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 Emon_ wrote:
So, Effort > JD, right? A > B, B > C doesn't mean A > C. But Effort definitely showed better adaptability and didn't hold back from early aggression. Uhh, if you lay it out correctly, it would be: A > B > C So yes, A > C.
No, this is called transitivity in mathematics. It doesn't have to hold for every binary relation. So the guy was right.
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No one wanted the finals to happen like they did tonight... I'm glad I didnt stay up.
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On May 29 2010 19:19 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:10 TwoToneTerran wrote:On May 29 2010 19:08 below66 wrote:
14cc wall-in VS what can I do about it? 9 pool speed still kills it. 3 hatch before pool and actually defending your expo with lings and lurkers. Jaedong should've been fine in Game 2 but he literally just suicided his two lurks without ling support into Flash's push. Actually 9pool speed doesn't kill it. On far pos, 9pool speed can't even beat 14CC, and if flash scouts no 12hatch he will put down rax+suply before CC and lings will be much too late. (Since he scouted, blind 14CC with wall can be beaten by 9pool speed if the pos isn't very far)
Well yeah, but that's not 14cc. That's late 1rax cc. The scouting is definitely important.
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Wow, that was an awful disappointing series. All the hype for nothing 
Grats to Flash!
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On May 29 2010 19:14 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:12 space_yes wrote:On May 29 2010 19:10 TwoToneTerran wrote:On May 29 2010 19:08 below66 wrote:
14cc wall-in VS what can I do about it? 9 pool speed still kills it. 3 hatch before pool and actually defending your expo with lings and lurkers. Jaedong should've been fine in Game 2 but he literally just suicided his two lurks without ling support into Flash's push. He was desperate to save his 3rd. JD didn't want to go 2 base v 2 base with Flash. Sure, it would have been better to wait, either way though, that hat was going down. No it wasn't. His lurks were there in time to push the MnM back. Jaedong played greedy, pumped too many drones and made no lings or sunkens to support his remainder lurkers. He expected to decimate Flash with his mutas -- even with valk support -- and failed to. Jaedong made uncharacteristic mistakes from a position that even Day9 himself said he was poised to take the lead.
I thought Jaedong was going to take the lead too when I saw all his scourge but he lost the micro battle and Flash kept his valks alive which helped deal with the muta. When Flash arrived at his third JD's lurkers didn't get there in time to make a coordinated attack. Besides, he only had 2 lurkers. There was no timing window for him to throw down sunks at his third.
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On May 29 2010 19:19 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:17 Vedic wrote:On May 29 2010 19:06 snowdrift86 wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 Emon_ wrote:
So, Effort > JD, right? A > B, B > C doesn't mean A > C. But Effort definitely showed better adaptability and didn't hold back from early aggression. Uhh, if you lay it out correctly, it would be: A > B > C So yes, A > C. M18M also beat Flash. Jaedong hasn't played against him -- so M18M is better than Jaedong? Really?
Casy > M18M > Flash
Casy > Flash ?????
Anyways, time for bed, but congrats Flash. Boring series, but I definitely think it's a poetic revenge for GOMS1. 14CC didn't look too imba back then right guys?
They'll meet again. And damnit Flash! So close to double titles >.<. Next season!
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On May 29 2010 19:21 Gumbo wrote:
No one wanted the finals to happen like they did tonight... I'm glad I didnt stay up.
The finals just finished like less than a half an hour ago. You didn't have to stay up. You could have just wake up a bit earlier
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On May 29 2010 19:19 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:17 Vedic wrote:On May 29 2010 19:06 snowdrift86 wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 Emon_ wrote:
So, Effort > JD, right? A > B, B > C doesn't mean A > C. But Effort definitely showed better adaptability and didn't hold back from early aggression. Uhh, if you lay it out correctly, it would be: A > B > C So yes, A > C. M18M also beat Flash. Jaedong hasn't played against him -- so M18M is better than Jaedong? Really?
Almost anyone can win a bo1. These are bo5 - the most accurate test of players there is.
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On May 29 2010 19:17 Vedic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:06 snowdrift86 wrote:On May 29 2010 19:05 Emon_ wrote:
So, Effort > JD, right? A > B, B > C doesn't mean A > C. But Effort definitely showed better adaptability and didn't hold back from early aggression. Uhh, if you lay it out correctly, it would be: A > B > C So yes, A > C.
even though ppl have flamed you.
scissor > paper > rock
scissor < rock
your logic only applies to Effort/JD's ZvT
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EPT
