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On May 22 2010 22:44 Hot_Bid wrote:I feel really happy for Effort, Coach Cho, and CJ. They lost their iconic figure to a horrible cheating scandal, and found out not only was he losing on purpose, but was betraying the team to do so. Remember, Savior was their big brother, their role model, and someone they looked up to as they rose through the CJ ranks. And now, almost as if to wipe the slate clean, Savior's heir replaces him. I feel this win means so much more to CJ and CJ fans than before. Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 06:51 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 04 2008 06:28 Raithed wrote:
its just because savior is at a "meh" stage and effort is becoming bigger right? "THE NEXT BIG THING" kind of zerg. let me explain something about effort, and why there's so much good feeling about him. effort is irrevocably tied to savior. he is his true apprentice, his home grown little brother. idra says that savior loves effort, i'm sure even more than the coaches do. he's more like a young, modern savior than kwanro or jy or orion ever was. he's his heir. when cj fans and savior fans watch effort, we see a young ma jae yoon, someone with infinite possibilities and whose play reminds us so much of the old maestro its scary. most of all, when we watch effort play, we remember. we remember a dominant ma jae yoon who had been so abruptly taken from us. we remember the savior who we wish so badly to return. before bisu, before FBH, before his current painful struggles. effort represents both hope for the future and the legacy of the past, merged into one talented, hard working, fierce looking kid. i am basing this solely off of what i see during CJ proleague matches, but the kid cares. he's a team player, he's humble, and he's come up through one of the most difficult team practice systems out there. ever since the team-ceremonies that xellos, much, and iris did to stick it to FBH when savior was slumping, i've loved CJ more and more. effort is a continuation of that and of all the things i've mentioned above with relation to our memories of savior. even his name is representative of this. his choice of ID is not one that represents a sun god or jesus or even something that's cool like bisu or shark. it's an ID that embodies the CJ spirit more than anything. it's all you need to be a good teammate, to win. if CJ could be embodied in one noun, it'd be effort. to us CJ fans, he means much more than just the next big zerg player. Lastly, to all those saying it was lucky or Flash was more deserving: Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 22:19 Hot_Bid wrote:
Anyone complaining that Effort got "lucky" in winning against a 14cc is ridiculous. There were no cheeses this series, except the BBS by Flash in Game 4 and he even canceled that.
Good scouting is not "Luck"
Hidden ling flank is not "Luck"
Beating 14cc is not "Luck"
Flash has weaknesses, Effort exploited them. If you want to watch two long games where Flash loses, check out CJ vs KT in Proleague.
Hot_Bid <3
Agree 100%.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 22 2010 22:35 JWD wrote:
holyshit
how do you take 3 straight from a guy that never loses one
got to watch these VODs obviously
By taking note of Flash's weaknesses and exploiting them to their fullest.
As much as I wanted Flash to win this, it became very clear in the final 3 games that Flash's TvZ early game is not the S-class play he shows in the late game, or in his other matchups. This showed itself in The Flash vs. Effort PL game, and even more so in Flash vs. Action (especially given how Action's Lair-level play is much weaker than his Hive play). Effort realized this and capitalized on it. It wasn't luck.
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On May 22 2010 22:45 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 22:42 matjlav wrote:On May 22 2010 22:38 Scaramanga wrote:On May 22 2010 22:35 InTheFade wrote:On May 22 2010 22:28 Waxangel wrote:Elsewhere in Seoul.... ![[image loading]](http://img.dailygame.co.kr/news/200911/attachments/20091115_bc70b2862888a56da2c6b194f72b4332.jpg) Best post thus far. On May 22 2010 22:31 Scaramanga wrote:
Flash was much more deserving of the title than effort, first two games flash raped effort repeatedly for 20 minuets each, 3rd game flash made one mistake of not scouting before moving out which cost him the game and the 5th game he didnt walloff properly and it cost him the game
two mistakes and hes gayed out of a spot in history as one of the games best
two mistakes
fucking bullshit Worst post thus far. Especially when you consider how Effort also made horrible mistakes in games 1 and 2. Thats what im saying, did you actually read my post? Effort made many mistakes in game one and two compared to flash's two, how people can say effort is more deserving of a title is beyond me I doubt many people think that Effort is actually the better player, but the fact is that it's Flash's own fault that he lost. The way you said that he got "gayed out" of it and that it's "fucking bullshit" suggested that you were just blaming Effort's "gay" play. Boston's overall record is 62-33, Cleveland's is 67-26. I guess the Cavaliers are the better team!
I don't follow sports, so I don't understand exactly the nuances of what you're saying, but... Flash is blatantly more skilled than EffOrt. He showed that in games 1 and 2. Now, as I said before, it's certainly Flash's fault that he lost games 3, 4, and 5; however, those were not straight up games. Game 2 especially showed that when it comes to straight up macro play, Flash is a complete monster.
Effort showed that Flash's early game is weak, but that is more of a mental issue that Flash can fix quickly. The fact remains that Flash has been utterly dominating for a year, and 3 very short games are not anywhere near enough to prove that Effort is the superior player.
Of course, I hate arguing over who is a "better" player because the idea of "superiority" in such a variable game is such a vague human construct, but in this case I think it's still pretty blatant.
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Game 3 was really interesting. Flash thought that they're was a hatchery at the natural, and moved out.
What shocks me is why did he move out at that time?
He had medics on the way to his rines (touch on this later)
If he had medics, that means he has an academy, means he should have comsat in like 25 seconds?
Comsat the natural, see if effort has a third. While the comsat is building, i think Flash could have gotten some firebats, and then scanned and moved out confidently.
Also, in the third game, his medics were behind his marines by a good 5-6 steps it looked like. No idea why, as they won't be bale to be used effectively.
In that situation, you have to play a little bit more conservatively even if youre up 2-0.
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Flash is quite obviously still the better player of the two, but you're just a sore loser if you say that Effort doesn't ''deserve'' the title.
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On May 22 2010 22:45 eSen1a wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 22:42 Wohmfg wrote:On May 22 2010 22:41 DarkMatter_ wrote:
What a crappy OP. No writeup, no recommended games, nothing. If you're gonna do an LR thread for a starleague finals, put some effort into it or let someone more capable to do it. For reals, I'm slightly disappointed in the OP, I love the banner but the rest is severely lacking. It's always nice to have some hype for a finals of this magnitude. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126331its all there
Yeah I read that, but it's awesome to have some polls and some predictions from another perspective. Thanks for the link though.
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He saw Effort go for a 12 hatch, so he thought he could get away with the 14cc. But he didn't interpret the early gas as a speedling bust. Hold-position SCV at the choke or a bunker in the main could have held it off, but Flash made some poor decisions, leaving a lot of holes that Effort could exploit. TvZ is a really delicate MU.
Also, Flash was completely blind-sided Game 3. A momentary lapse in concentration, I guess. Also the dropships in Game 4 were completely terrible. He was so desperate to do some damage that he ended up losing a ton of MM. More conservative play would have made him the victor, given the strength of his mid-late game play.
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On May 22 2010 22:54 Holgerius wrote:
Flash is quite obviously still the better player of the two, but you're just a sore loser if you say that Effort doesn't ''deserve'' the title.
as i stated in my last post, effort as a player deserves a starleague title. its just that his play in this particular osl does NOT deserve a title.
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On May 22 2010 22:54 Holgerius wrote:
Flash is quite obviously still the better player of the two, but you're just a sore loser if you say that Effort doesn't ''deserve'' the title.
Agreed. The results determine who deserves the title.
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On May 22 2010 22:54 Holgerius wrote:
Flash is quite obviously still the better player of the two, but you're just a sore loser if you say that Effort doesn't ''deserve'' the title.
well done sir! if only all the other flash fans could stop been so stuck up.
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Braavos36399 Posts
Seriously, it's like a Hollywood script.
Theres this group of down and out players, and a coach that won't give up on them. They are really poor and can't even afford food. Coach finds one guy who manages to really good, wins a whole bunch of leagues, gets sponsored by huge company CJ, and they grow this really nice group of young players.
But despite all that they've been through, that guy betrays the whole team and cheats. This crushes the entire team (and their best player, that guy's heir, slumps hard) only to have the kid rise from the slump and face near-impossible odds in the finals of the biggest tournament against the best player, be down 0-2, then come back to win??
You can't make this up.
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On May 22 2010 22:53 matjlav wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 22:45 Jibba wrote:On May 22 2010 22:42 matjlav wrote:On May 22 2010 22:38 Scaramanga wrote:On May 22 2010 22:35 InTheFade wrote:On May 22 2010 22:28 Waxangel wrote:Elsewhere in Seoul.... Best post thus far. On May 22 2010 22:31 Scaramanga wrote:
Flash was much more deserving of the title than effort, first two games flash raped effort repeatedly for 20 minuets each, 3rd game flash made one mistake of not scouting before moving out which cost him the game and the 5th game he didnt walloff properly and it cost him the game
two mistakes and hes gayed out of a spot in history as one of the games best
two mistakes
fucking bullshit Worst post thus far. Especially when you consider how Effort also made horrible mistakes in games 1 and 2. Thats what im saying, did you actually read my post? Effort made many mistakes in game one and two compared to flash's two, how people can say effort is more deserving of a title is beyond me I doubt many people think that Effort is actually the better player, but the fact is that it's Flash's own fault that he lost. The way you said that he got "gayed out" of it and that it's "fucking bullshit" suggested that you were just blaming Effort's "gay" play. Boston's overall record is 62-33, Cleveland's is 67-26. I guess the Cavaliers are the better team! I don't follow sports, so I don't understand exactly the nuances of what you're saying, but... Flash is blatantly more skilled than EffOrt. He showed that in games 1 and 2. Now, as I said before, it's certainly Flash's fault that he lost games 3, 4, and 5; however, those were not straight up games. Game 2 especially showed that when it comes to straight up macro play, Flash is a complete monster. Effort showed that Flash's early game is weak, but that is more of a mental issue that Flash can fix quickly. The fact remains that Flash has been utterly dominating for a year, and 3 very short games are not anywhere near enough to prove that Effort is the superior player. Of course, I hate arguing over who is a "better" player because the idea of "superiority" in such a variable game is such a vague human construct, but in this case I think it's still pretty blatant.
??? Who in this thread said that effort is overall the superior player?
I strongly doubt that anyone in these 280 pages said that.
That doesnt, however, mean that this title isn't well deserved.
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
On May 22 2010 22:44 Hot_Bid wrote:I feel really happy for Effort, Coach Cho, and CJ. They lost their iconic figure to a horrible cheating scandal, and found out not only was he losing on purpose, but was betraying the team to do so. Remember, Savior was their big brother, their role model, and someone they looked up to as they rose through the CJ ranks. And now, almost as if to wipe the slate clean, Savior's heir replaces him. I feel this win means so much more to CJ and CJ fans than before. Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 06:51 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 04 2008 06:28 Raithed wrote:
its just because savior is at a "meh" stage and effort is becoming bigger right? "THE NEXT BIG THING" kind of zerg. let me explain something about effort, and why there's so much good feeling about him. effort is irrevocably tied to savior. he is his true apprentice, his home grown little brother. idra says that savior loves effort, i'm sure even more than the coaches do. he's more like a young, modern savior than kwanro or jy or orion ever was. he's his heir. when cj fans and savior fans watch effort, we see a young ma jae yoon, someone with infinite possibilities and whose play reminds us so much of the old maestro its scary. most of all, when we watch effort play, we remember. we remember a dominant ma jae yoon who had been so abruptly taken from us. we remember the savior who we wish so badly to return. before bisu, before FBH, before his current painful struggles. effort represents both hope for the future and the legacy of the past, merged into one talented, hard working, fierce looking kid. i am basing this solely off of what i see during CJ proleague matches, but the kid cares. he's a team player, he's humble, and he's come up through one of the most difficult team practice systems out there. ever since the team-ceremonies that xellos, much, and iris did to stick it to FBH when savior was slumping, i've loved CJ more and more. effort is a continuation of that and of all the things i've mentioned above with relation to our memories of savior. even his name is representative of this. his choice of ID is not one that represents a sun god or jesus or even something that's cool like bisu or shark. it's an ID that embodies the CJ spirit more than anything. it's all you need to be a good teammate, to win. if CJ could be embodied in one noun, it'd be effort. to us CJ fans, he means much more than just the next big zerg player. Lastly, to all those saying it was lucky or Flash was more deserving: Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 22:19 Hot_Bid wrote:
Anyone complaining that Effort got "lucky" in winning against a 14cc is ridiculous. There were no cheeses this series, except the BBS by Flash in Game 4 and he even canceled that.
Good scouting is not "Luck"
Hidden ling flank is not "Luck"
Beating 14cc is not "Luck"
Flash has weaknesses, Effort exploited them. If you want to watch two long games where Flash loses, check out CJ vs KT in Proleague.
Wonderful post. Thank you.
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On May 22 2010 22:55 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 22:54 Holgerius wrote:
Flash is quite obviously still the better player of the two, but you're just a sore loser if you say that Effort doesn't ''deserve'' the title. as i stated in my last post, effort as a player deserves a starleague title. its just that his play in this particular osl does NOT deserve a title.
Effort won 3 games, Flash won 2 = deserved win.
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On May 22 2010 22:47 SuperArc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2010 22:44 Hot_Bid wrote:I feel really happy for Effort, Coach Cho, and CJ. They lost their iconic figure to a horrible cheating scandal, and found out not only was he losing on purpose, but was betraying the team to do so. Remember, Savior was their big brother, their role model, and someone they looked up to as they rose through the CJ ranks. And now, almost as if to wipe the slate clean, Savior's heir replaces him. I feel this win means so much more to CJ and CJ fans than before. Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 06:51 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 04 2008 06:28 Raithed wrote:
its just because savior is at a "meh" stage and effort is becoming bigger right? "THE NEXT BIG THING" kind of zerg. let me explain something about effort, and why there's so much good feeling about him. effort is irrevocably tied to savior. he is his true apprentice, his home grown little brother. idra says that savior loves effort, i'm sure even more than the coaches do. he's more like a young, modern savior than kwanro or jy or orion ever was. he's his heir. when cj fans and savior fans watch effort, we see a young ma jae yoon, someone with infinite possibilities and whose play reminds us so much of the old maestro its scary. most of all, when we watch effort play, we remember. we remember a dominant ma jae yoon who had been so abruptly taken from us. we remember the savior who we wish so badly to return. before bisu, before FBH, before his current painful struggles. effort represents both hope for the future and the legacy of the past, merged into one talented, hard working, fierce looking kid. i am basing this solely off of what i see during CJ proleague matches, but the kid cares. he's a team player, he's humble, and he's come up through one of the most difficult team practice systems out there. ever since the team-ceremonies that xellos, much, and iris did to stick it to FBH when savior was slumping, i've loved CJ more and more. effort is a continuation of that and of all the things i've mentioned above with relation to our memories of savior. even his name is representative of this. his choice of ID is not one that represents a sun god or jesus or even something that's cool like bisu or shark. it's an ID that embodies the CJ spirit more than anything. it's all you need to be a good teammate, to win. if CJ could be embodied in one noun, it'd be effort. to us CJ fans, he means much more than just the next big zerg player. Lastly, to all those saying it was lucky or Flash was more deserving: Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 22:19 Hot_Bid wrote:
Anyone complaining that Effort got "lucky" in winning against a 14cc is ridiculous. There were no cheeses this series, except the BBS by Flash in Game 4 and he even canceled that.
Good scouting is not "Luck"
Hidden ling flank is not "Luck"
Beating 14cc is not "Luck"
Flash has weaknesses, Effort exploited them. If you want to watch two long games where Flash loses, check out CJ vs KT in Proleague. Yeah I can't imagine how Coach Cho must have felt. Savior was the only player who has won a gold since CJ Entus was founded. He must have thought that he(Coach himself) is a failure, the only winner was a cheat...
I don't consider myself to be a fan of particular teams too much; I wouldn't even be able to tell you which teams most players are on. I tend to watch games based either on the players, the level of the tournament, or whatever happened to be posted recently.
That being said, reading these comments and looking at it that way almost makes me happy that Effort won. I would really like to see Flash get the Golden Mouse, but he'll have another shot. The timing for CJ is probably more important. :-)
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On May 22 2010 22:57 Hot_Bid wrote:
Seriously, it's like a Hollywood script.
Theres this group of down and out players, and a coach that won't give up on them. They are really poor and can't even afford food. Coach finds one guy who manages to really good, wins a whole bunch of leagues, gets sponsored by huge company CJ, and they grow this really nice group of young players.
But despite all that they've been through, that guy betrays the whole team and cheats. This crushes the entire team (and their best player, that guy's heir, slumps hard) only to have the kid rise from the slump and face near-impossible odds in the finals of the biggest tournament against the best player, be down 0-2, then come back to win??
You can't make this up.
 now I feel all emotional and stuff, in a different way T_T
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United States47024 Posts
As much as you might dislike Effort, you have to realize that during this series he was able to find the gap in Flash's seemingly impenetrable armor. That's a feat that no one has been able to perform consistently for the last 6 months. Even Jaedong, in his 3-1 drubbing of Flash in the MSL finals, cannot be said to have exploited any individual weakness of Flash's--he just powered through him with mental fortitude and raw skill.
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Question is: What is sAviOr thinking at home, right now, after watching this??'
He must be crying a pool of tears
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United States11393 Posts
On May 22 2010 22:55 LunarC wrote:
He saw Effort go for a 12 hatch, so he thought he could get away with the 14cc. But he didn't interpret the early gas as a speedling bust. Hold-position SCV at the choke or a bunker in the main could have held it off, but Flash made some poor decisions, leaving a lot of holes that Effort could exploit. TvZ is a really delicate MU.
??
Flash was blind when he went double CC. He didn't "see" effort do anything and by time scv scout got to Effort's main, pool and gas already finished so not like he would know that Effort went for gas before pool.
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Braavos36399 Posts
On May 22 2010 22:59 pR0gR4m3R wrote:
Question is: What is sAviOr thinking at home, right now, after watching this??'
He must be crying a pool of tears
He's sad.
Because he would've made a killing selling Effort reps to KT.
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EPT
