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On February 15 2010 17:42 FirstBorn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 16:49 Ronald_McD wrote:
Idra vs Nony was such a terrible series. I typed a big long read on why I thought it was so bad, but then TL went down for 15 minutes and I don't have it copied anymore.
Yes, it didn't feature any huge macro battles or any strategical brilliance but the series was very intense and tbh, I'm delighted the ro8 featured so many upsets. The TSL just got much more interesting, I have virtually no idea who could take it.
There was no upsets in the ro8. I got 100% liquibet, and so did anyone who is smart.
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You're really wrong if you think Sen was the favorite over Ret (he wasn't), Nony was the favorite over Idra (He wasn't), JF was the favorite over White-ra (hint, he wasn't).
The only favorite who won was Mondy. Hands down. You know nothing about the foreigner scene otherwise. It's fine to predict upsets but there's a difference between prediction and who the "favorite" is. The favorite's the guy who got the most LB votes and in that case it was White-ra, Idra and Ret.
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how much money did rekrul make?
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On February 15 2010 18:31 tenacity wrote:
how much money did rekrul make?
About 2.5k, I think he had 1:1 odds.
While I do agree thant I had a feeling ret might lose to Sen just because he's forced to play ZvZ, all the other matches had a clear favorite.
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he had some money at 1.3:1 odds too, i tihnk it was like 2750ish
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Nony advancing was probably good for the tournament (Idra destroying anyone else), and I *love* the idea of a PvZ final, but man, Idra has to feel terrible 
Mad credit to Nony for out-thinking Idra (or Idra guessing wrong) and fully exploiting the Protoss imba arsenal of legitimate options. Even without Idra's mismicroings, Nony's play would've been sufficient to destroy many a superior Terran.
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If u can't even defend against cheese then u don't deserve to play a long game. Nony deserved the win.
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On February 15 2010 18:12 TwoToneTerran wrote:
You're really wrong if you think Sen was the favorite over Ret (he wasn't)
I disagree. Sen has played ZvZ for years at a high level and Ret is the favorite because he suddenly starts mass gaming the matchup for a couple of months? I'm not saying Sen was a clear favorite but Ret was the underdog in my mind even if I feel like Ret is all around a better player.
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On February 15 2010 19:01 Baddieko wrote:
If u can't even defend against cheese then u don't deserve to play a long game. Nony deserved the win.
IMHO what Nony did in game 5 was not even cheesing, it was just the correct and clever reaction to a very very greedy T who almost expanded before first barrack was complete ...
When Nony saw such an early exp he had two opstions:
1) Double expand himself which was anyway going to be risky
2) Try an all-in (which is naturally risky)
all other options were very likely going to be unsuccesfull ....
+ Show Spoiler +He choosed option two and got a great series win.
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On February 15 2010 19:06 Vasoline73 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 18:12 TwoToneTerran wrote:
You're really wrong if you think Sen was the favorite over Ret (he wasn't)
I disagree. Sen has played ZvZ for years at a high level and Ret is the favorite because he suddenly starts mass gaming the matchup for a couple of months? I'm not saying Sen was a clear favorite but Ret was the underdog in my mind even if I feel like Ret is all around a better player.
Well he was winning a lot of ZvZs in courage/practice on top of choosing it over his TvZ -- which means he was confident enough in it to pick it over a matchup that he'd also be favored against Sen in. Obviously not the case, but hell, you saw the games themselves I assume, Sen was displaying high level ZvZ so much as giving Ret the run around, but I'm entirely skeptical if you'd consider Sen the favorite -- kind of like Nony vs Idra. Nony worked Idra over intelligently but he was not the favorite nor is he definitively better.
Like I said, the favorite comes down to who was the odds on favorite to win. Ret was the overwhelming community and analyst favorite so he WAS the favorite, no matter how you look at it. People, including myself, were obviously wrong, but it's inane to argue that he wasn't the favorite after the fact.
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Ret was a clear underdog against Sen in my mind. ZvZ does not equal muta micro in the foreign world, there are many little tricks and whatnot that you can't pick up on in such a short time. He may be the favorite against 16y/o Koreans who play like robots, but not against the guys who've been playing the game seriously for 10 years.
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omg Nony, you're the super star!
edit: waiting anxiously to watch it on youtube
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Those first 7 years don't really matter in ZvZ, though. :>
I mean Sen still did standard, modern builds with slight variations. 10 years of experience has nothing to do with "tricks" in the metagame because trying to do fast +1 attack speedlings doesn't work anymore, and hell everything before Savior doesn't work anymore.
Experience is important but Ret's not a newbie and was still the favorite. He'd probably still be the favorite if they played again.
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On February 15 2010 18:12 TwoToneTerran wrote:
You're really wrong if you think Sen was the favorite over Ret (he wasn't), Nony was the favorite over Idra (He wasn't), JF was the favorite over White-ra (hint, he wasn't).
The only favorite who won was Mondy. Hands down. You know nothing about the foreigner scene otherwise. It's fine to predict upsets but there's a difference between prediction and who the "favorite" is. The favorite's the guy who got the most LB votes and in that case it was White-ra, Idra and Ret.
Okay, do you know the difference about being actually a favorite to win and of people thinking you are the favorite to win?
Also, do you know how a player's likability affects his liquidbet, not to mention hype by a trusted third party?
Liquidbet is the worst possible argument for favorites. Quite certain that at least JF was a favorite vs White-Ra and Sen's style actually is really good against ret's greedyness. Mondragon definitely was the favorite though, and I guess Idra was as well.
That argument, though, is atrocious.
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On February 15 2010 18:02 Mastermind wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 17:42 FirstBorn wrote:On February 15 2010 16:49 Ronald_McD wrote:
Idra vs Nony was such a terrible series. I typed a big long read on why I thought it was so bad, but then TL went down for 15 minutes and I don't have it copied anymore.
Yes, it didn't feature any huge macro battles or any strategical brilliance but the series was very intense and tbh, I'm delighted the ro8 featured so many upsets. The TSL just got much more interesting, I have virtually no idea who could take it. There was no upsets in the ro8. I got 100% liquibet, and so did anyone who is smart.
Lol are you kidding me? All series were incredibly close and went to game 5. There was no way of predicting this outcome.
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On February 15 2010 17:19 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 17:08 CubEdIn wrote:On February 15 2010 16:49 Ronald_McD wrote:
Idra vs Nony was such a terrible series. I typed a big long read on why I thought it was so bad, but then TL went down for 15 minutes and I don't have it copied anymore.
It was a cheesefest full of lame mistakes and build order counters. The commentary was actually poor. I know everyone's going to shit on me for this, but Tasteless really wasn't into it. I guess he was tired as hell or something, but he kept saying redundant things. Artosis did okay. But they both missed some important things entirely (when Idra did the vulture run by into Nony's main) or pointed them out really late (the proxy robo bay on Outsider). Yes, please go back to watching mindless 1h-long macro-fest TvT where nothing happens 75% of the time, because that's what real starcraft is all about. Cheese is fun. Mistakes are fun to come back from. Build order counters is WHAT REALLY MATTERS in starcraft. This series was all about thinking fast and reacting fast on both parts. Yes, Idra stretched too far but in the fourth and fifth game you can really see that he does everything very close to perfect in order to stay alive. If you ask me, game five was actually quite close. 5 seconds later for Nony and it might have ended up ugly. In my opinion, everyone who didn't appreciate this series because of cheesing and 'build order counters' has no idea what starcraft is all about. It may sound insulting, but it shouldn't. This new age shit where it's 90% about macroing is BORING. Quick play is way more fun to watch. Cheese is fun but saying nothing is happening in TvT is just untrue (( it's not mindless there is a lot of strategy!
I didn't say nothing happens in TvT, i said that there are some TvTs where they just divide the map, and macro a lot, etc, and 75% of the time it's just building, then 10 seconds of fighting, then more building, etc. Of course there are a lot of <better> TvTs, but I was just making a point. I'd much rather watch intensive games, even if they end faster.
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On February 15 2010 18:52 okum wrote:Nony advancing was probably good for the tournament (Idra destroying anyone else), and I *love* the idea of a PvZ final, but man, Idra has to feel terrible Mad credit to Nony for out-thinking Idra (or Idra guessing wrong) and fully exploiting the Protoss imba arsenal of legitimate options. Even without Idra's mismicroings, Nony's play would've been sufficient to destroy many a superior Terran.
I'd feel terrible too if I spent 12 hours a day practicing with the best players in the world, and couldn't even beat a married guy who basically practiced this for about a month and a half in a Bo5.
And if you really think Idra was going to win game 2 after watching game 5 (where Idra did the exact same BO except didn't cancel his CC and got summarily crushed), you're silly. Game 5 certainly would have been different.
Kinda funny how the only "normal game" that wasn't some sort of rush was on Outsider, where Nony thoroughly beat Idra with excellent play
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On February 15 2010 18:12 TwoToneTerran wrote:
You're really wrong if you think Sen was the favorite over Ret (he wasn't), Nony was the favorite over Idra (He wasn't), JF was the favorite over White-ra (hint, he wasn't).
The only favorite who won was Mondy. Hands down. You know nothing about the foreigner scene otherwise. It's fine to predict upsets but there's a difference between prediction and who the "favorite" is. The favorite's the guy who got the most LB votes and in that case it was White-ra, Idra and Ret.
Ret vs Sen and JF vs White -ra was 50 - 50 no one was the favourite . Mondy and Idra were the favourites over Fenix and Nony , but not by a large margin . As Artosis mentioned in this Ro8 all the players are extremely skilled and could win against everyone else .
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Wow ... nice torrent lol I'm downloading at 1200 kB/s
... Holy crap only 4 minutes to download all 5 VODs lol
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/wallin8uid.jpg)
