Jaedong did not have the "clear" advantage in game 3. Jaedong on 3 bases yes I only credit him for 3 bases because the base at 7o'clock was not saturated with drones because of the pressure being put on it. That is 1 base less than game 2 when flash won. Flash was now on two bases (natural and an expo) which is more than enough to keep up or attack any 3 base zerg. The supply count for JD couldn't have been that much higher than flash's given that terrans produce so many scvs, but rather maybe his fighting army was larger, but I've seen jaedong lose in better positions + Show Spoiler +
jaedong vs fantasy on outsider
, where he had 7 bases for the whole game.
That call right there ended the MSL. If flash tried hard that decision would have been in the back of his head, but JD knows flash and I called it before the match even started. Flash would try to cheese to make the game count fair. JD knew it two and continued to play calm because he had lost nothing. Knew the cheese was coming and pooled early. Flash then stood no chance and the game was over win JD 3-1.
There should be some sort of rule in place sort of like this. Game Fails... 1-10mins = redo And unless there is an individual in the game with +2 expansions and 4x the army size can it be called an uneven game. Something to measure with not it looks like this guy could win unless flash plays really great. But in reality these are the two best players of the game and nobody could say at the point who would've won. Nobody was that far ahead.
I feel bad for both players. Flash - lost his clear shot of becoming a B word (i know it takes more, but this would've helped) Flash - lost all hope after losing a game where I'm sure he felt like he could win JD - If you look at his face when he is awarded the win he looks upset. JD - His title is forever tainted by this
On January 24 2010 03:13 purpose wrote: I dont know if anyone has posted this qoute yet but in case not, here is what Ret has to say about it. And tbh I agree with him.
All in all there was not 100% correct decision to make, but the one they took was the least unfair.
Ret's opinion " I'd just like to say I think the descision Kespa made to award JD the win was the right one. He was playing on a T favored map...in a very very favorable position after having overcome all the imbalances that make this map so hard to play ZvT on. If you put jaedong back at the start of the game it gives flash an advantadge again...So regame is a lot worse than awarding Jaedong a win for a game he would win 99.9% of the time. He was about to get his 5th gas...Flash was outta minerals in about 2 minutes....with no vessels or tanks to fight Ultras. m&m in small numbers would have never broken jaedongs base at 7 o clock. So all in all the only right descision in my opinion. "
LOL
Thats the worst reasoning I've ever heard, it makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever. The idea you award a win in the MSL finals because of map balance is absurd.
No the reasoning was that Jaedong was the clear winner in set 3. Flash had 0 chance of coming back from that. To restart the game would bo 100x more unfair to Jaedong because he was ahead and his build was revealed. Yes it sucks that the game had to end early, but let's be honest Jaedong was going to win it soon enough. We shouldn't be mad at KESPA, we should be mad at the fucking piece of shit MBC for shitting up the finals with the crappy studio.
The fact a map is balanced in favour of one race (in your opinion) is no basis for making a decision on the result of a match. That is the chosen map for the series whether you like it or not. Are you suggesting that if power outage had happend and Flash had been winning the game then it should have been replayed because of the map. Stop clutching at straws and except that the wrong decision was made.
Both Flash and Jaedongs builds had been revealed. Jaedongs lead was not decisive. Flash and other players have come back from far far worse positions many times in the past. This isn't fair on Jaedong either, by not replaying the game its ruined his victory.
YES we absolutly should be mad at Kespa
1) For having inadequate rules and protocol 2) For letting this drag out for over an hour ruining the next couple of games. Bad decisions happen in many sports but coaches, players and parents do not argue for hours after the event whilst it is still ongoing. 3) For making a the wrong decision. As it has already been said you do not just ajudicate wins in the MSL finals.
An example of one of many a Flash comeback from a far worse position. go to 26 minutes. What would the result have been here when the power was cut.
On January 24 2010 05:21 NoobSkills wrote: Jaedong did not have the "clear" advantage in game 3. Jaedong on 3 bases yes I only credit him for 3 bases because the base at 7o'clock was not saturated with drones because of the pressure being put on it. That is 1 base less than game 2 when flash won. Flash was now on two bases (natural and an expo) which is more than enough to keep up or attack any 3 base zerg. The supply count for JD couldn't have been that much higher than flash's given that terrans produce so many scvs, but rather maybe his fighting army was larger, but I've seen jaedong lose in better positions + Show Spoiler +
jaedong vs fantasy on outsider
, where he had 7 bases for the whole game.
That call right there ended the MSL. If flash tried hard that decision would have been in the back of his head, but JD knows flash and I called it before the match even started. Flash would try to cheese to make the game count fair. JD knew it two and continued to play calm because he had lost nothing. Knew the cheese was coming and pooled early. Flash then stood no chance and the game was over win JD 3-1.
There should be some sort of rule in place sort of like this. Game Fails... 1-10mins = redo And unless there is an individual in the game with +2 expansions and 4x the army size can it be called an uneven game. Something to measure with not it looks like this guy could win unless flash plays really great. But in reality these are the two best players of the game and nobody could say at the point who would've won. Nobody was that far ahead.
I feel bad for both players. Flash - lost his clear shot of becoming a B word (i know it takes more, but this would've helped) Flash - lost all hope after losing a game where I'm sure he felt like he could win JD - If you look at his face when he is awarded the win he looks upset. JD - His title is forever tainted by this
jd has NEVER lost in a better position the difference was that fantasy was massing tanks and had svs and a decent amount of bases, that win wasnt even a huge upset.
whereas flash was DEAD. basically 0% chance of winning, he didnt have any of the comeback units of tvz, 0 tanks and 2 SVs with no energy. 20 mnm cannot hold off 5 gas zerg especially when the t is macroing off 2 depleted bases and just one min-only.
and no, this call didnt end the msl. jd totally outplaying flash in 2 games ended the msl.
On January 24 2010 05:21 NoobSkills wrote: Jaedong did not have the "clear" advantage in game 3. Jaedong on 3 bases yes I only credit him for 3 bases because the base at 7o'clock was not saturated with drones because of the pressure being put on it. That is 1 base less than game 2 when flash won. Flash was now on two bases (natural and an expo) which is more than enough to keep up or attack any 3 base zerg. The supply count for JD couldn't have been that much higher than flash's given that terrans produce so many scvs, but rather maybe his fighting army was larger, but I've seen jaedong lose in better positions + Show Spoiler +
jaedong vs fantasy on outsider
, where he had 7 bases for the whole game.
That call right there ended the MSL. If flash tried hard that decision would have been in the back of his head, but JD knows flash and I called it before the match even started. Flash would try to cheese to make the game count fair. JD knew it two and continued to play calm because he had lost nothing. Knew the cheese was coming and pooled early. Flash then stood no chance and the game was over win JD 3-1.
There should be some sort of rule in place sort of like this. Game Fails... 1-10mins = redo And unless there is an individual in the game with +2 expansions and 4x the army size can it be called an uneven game. Something to measure with not it looks like this guy could win unless flash plays really great. But in reality these are the two best players of the game and nobody could say at the point who would've won. Nobody was that far ahead.
I feel bad for both players. Flash - lost his clear shot of becoming a B word (i know it takes more, but this would've helped) Flash - lost all hope after losing a game where I'm sure he felt like he could win JD - If you look at his face when he is awarded the win he looks upset. JD - His title is forever tainted by this
jd has NEVER lost in a better position the difference was that fantasy was massing tanks and had svs and a decent amount of bases, that win wasnt even a huge upset.
whereas flash was DEAD. basically 0% chance of winning, he didnt have any of the comeback units of tvz, 0 tanks and 2 SVs with no energy. 20 mnm cannot hold off 5 gas zerg especially when the t is macroing off 2 depleted bases and just one min-only.
and no, this call didnt end the msl. jd totally outplaying flash in 2 games ended the msl.
If you rewatch that game trust me JD was at a MASSIVE advantage. Yes the tanks played a good role, but JD just sat tried cute flanks and lost his whole army time and time again and fantasy didn't have that many vessels either. His base count was so high he could have even massed guardians to win.
It did wind up ending the MSL weather you argue that flash thought he had a chance and was stripped of it or that the ruling was correct, but the referees took so long that it even more disheartened flash into trying a cheese build which I believe JD knew was coming. Not only because of how greedily he played the previous game (no offense it was a great strategy) and that flash would obviously want a free win for being stripped of a game where I believe it was probably only 60% advantage to JD
I couldn't hold on and had to go to sleep in the middle of game 3. When I entered TL to check the small vod thread, I inevitably saw the "power underwhelming" headline and my heart skipped a beat. Surely enough, couple minutes after I was forced to retire due to my biological needs, the most unthinkable happened...
Enough has been discussed on that subject. But this ultimate dream final has been tainted forever. Flash just lost his shot at the B-word and Jaedong limped away with a title mingled with controversy.
So unfortunatly, I had work and class and could not stay up to watch this amazing behemouth matchup... I've looked all over youtube and tl.net and I cant find the vods, someone help me ?!
On January 24 2010 05:10 iamho wrote: yeah i just finished watching the vods. i cant see why people are blaming kespa and mbc, its not their fault that half of the games were one sided. as for game 3, it would have been over in 2 or 3 minutes anyways. you people keep looking for someone to take a fall for the shitty series when really the only problem was that flash got outplayed
You completely and utterly fail at reading comprehension. The fault isn't necessarily with the decision (which can and probably will be argued about forever), it lies in the way that KeSPA/MBC handled the situation and the fact that they let this shit go on for an hour.
Just watched the games. What a shitty end to a finals. I was really into the whole thing until the blackout, but now I am left with a feeling of dissatisfaction.
On January 24 2010 05:56 Mastermind wrote: Just watched the games. What a shitty end to a finals. I was really into the whole thing until the blackout, but now I am left with a feeling of dissatisfaction.
You really had to watch it unfold live. If you didn't, you can fuck off with your kespa-apologist bullshit. You don't call a game until it's over. MBC and Kespa just tainted the legitimacy of e-sports yet again
It all goes to the context of the game- In hindsight we might say that the call to give the the game to Jaedong was a bit more reasonable, but at the moment I, (and probably most people) were completely sure they were going to replay the set after such a back-and-forth game ended so suddenly in the middle of the most important battle. If the blackout occurred a few minutes earlier you mongoloids would have probably been fine with kespa giving the game free to Flash
If you seriously think that it would have been unfair to replay the game then you obviously weren't there to see how unbelievably completely unfair it was to all the viewers to see jaedong given a game on a technicality because of a studio fuck up, and how completely unfair it was to delay the next game for fucking hours
At the end of the night there were only 3 games completed and all of them were short, utterly forgettable, one-sided slaughters. It was a shitty night to stay up and watch starcraft, and should be remembered as the worst finals ever
On January 24 2010 06:00 Aduromors wrote: You really had to watch it unfold live. If you didn't, you can fuck off with your kespa-apologist bullshit. You don't call a game until it's over. MBC and Kespa just tainted the legitimacy of e-sports yet again
It all goes to the context of the game- In hindsight we might say that the call to give the the game to Jaedong was a bit more reasonable, but at the moment I, (and probably most people) were completely sure they were going to replay the set after such a back-and-forth game ended so suddenly in the middle of the most important battle. If the blackout occurred a few minutes earlier you mongoloids would have probably been fine with kespa giving the game free to Flash
If you seriously think that it would have been unfair to replay the game then you obviously weren't there to see how unbelievably completely unfair it was to all the viewers to see jaedong given a game on a technicality because of a studio fuck up, and how completely unfair it was to delay the next game for fucking hours
At the end of the night there were only 3 games completed and all of them were short, utterly forgettable, one-sided slaughters. It was a shitty night to stay up and watch starcraft, and should be remembered as the worst finals ever
I watched it unfold live I think it would have been unfair to rematch I think it wasn't unfair on Kespa/MBC's part to delay the 4th game
The games were all ridiculously epic Holy crap your post sucks..
On January 24 2010 05:56 Mastermind wrote: Just watched the games. What a shitty end to a finals. I was really into the whole thing until the blackout, but now I am left with a feeling of dissatisfaction.
Where did you watch them? I've been looking...
Go to youtube and go to Jon747's account, he has the VOD's uploaded.
technicality because of a studio fuck up
And therin lies the hidden problem. MBC's desire to hike up ratings and limit the amount of viewers may have contributed to this whole ugly situation. Other, larger, venues could have potentially averted this. However, MBC decides to use their untested and unproven studio to host the Finals. That didn't quite work out well didn't it?
this is the first finals i've really, really wanted to watch since savior vs nada. to be honest it really did not disappoint.
everyone whining about mbc and kespa are retards. given the shit that they had to deal with they made a good, timely decision. maybe the shit shouldn't have happened in the first place but guess what? shit happens.
games 1-3 were amazing despite the power outage or whatever the fuck. and game 4 flash just got outplayed. he might have been shaken by the whole ordeal but that isn't kespa's fault nor mbc's it was KT and his dad for being retards and stirring shit up when jaedong clearly had the lead in game 3, had the game dropped a minute or two earlier when flash had a HUGE standing army + 2 fully mining bases and before jaedong absolutely dismantled it then maybe the outcome would've been different. replaying that would've been a severe injustice to jaedong.
and no flash did not throw game 4. you don't throw a game worth $10k that you practiced for weeks for.
EPT![[image loading]](http://thimg.dreamwiz.com/upfile/201001/1264251468096.jpg)
not everyone is happy now
![[image loading]](http://thimg.dreamwiz.com/upfile/201001/1264247794942_1.jpg)
