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Well, Flash's TvZ has been so aggressive lately that there hasn't been much 'turtle' complaining. I think the last time I got to taste delicious Flash anti-fan tears like that was in Game 2 of Flash vs Effort WCG. Flash had just finished stomping Effort with bio in Game 1, and then he did a slow mech push with tanks and goliaths in Game 2, devouring the map expo by expo.
Thread was full of "LOOK AT FLASH TURTLING, ALL HE DOES IS TURTLE AND WIN IT'S SO SIMPLE AND EASY WHAT CAN ZERG DO AGAINST THAT"
It was like they really believed that any C Terran could do what Flash does, but there was some unspoken code of honor not to use such 'gay' tactics among all top Terrans that only Flash broke.
As for Flash vs Jaedong, if I were a betting man I'd take ~60% odds on Flash. Everyone knows that Flash has the best TvZ in Starcraft right now, so this game is really about seeing how good Jaedong's ZvT is, which we haven't seen a whole lot of recently.
Right now I think it goes:
Stork > Flash > Jaedong > Stork
but any matchup between those three could go either way...just 60-40 odds for 'favored' player there. If I were a Stork fan, I'd be hoping Flash knocks Jaedong out here.
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On December 13 2009 00:09 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2009 15:55 Interista90 wrote:
Nice, haha.
Group A: Jaedong < Flash
Group B: Calm < Pure
Group C: Movie > ZerO
Group D: Shine < Stork
Flash > Pure
Movie < Stork
Flash < Stork. Stork is going to take this OSL the manly way. Stork > Shine Stork > Zero Stork > Calm Stork > Jaedong At least I can dream... 
I dont see that really happening... How would he fight both Calm and Jaedong? Oo
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dont get me wrong people... i have loads and loads of respect for flash
even in his rainy days, i knew the kids was special. i dont dickride like mose of the flashtards atm
imo (again imo) flash tvz isnt legit until he beats zergs that are in his league or close to his...thats like me beating up 50 girls straight and say im the best fighter in the world
if he can keep up his tvz streak againts jd/zero then but only then
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o shit flahs jd round of 8
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5930 Posts
On December 13 2009 15:28 lyhb wrote:
dont get me wrong people... i have loads and loads of respect for flash
even in his rainy days, i knew the kids was special. i dont dickride like mose of the flashtards atm
imo (again imo) flash tvz isnt legit until he beats zergs that are in his league or close to his...thats like me beating up 50 girls straight and say im the best fighter in the world
if he can keep up his tvz streak againts jd/zero then but only then
That analogy doesn't make sense because Flash has the best TvZ right now and anyone can see that even if he is beating up "scrubs". I don't think anyone is saying Flash is the best player in the world because frankly he'll never win against protosses like Stork with the style he's playing right now.
For me, the MSL and OSL games are just there to show me whether or not Flash can get his mojo back, the same shit he had when he won the GSI and OSL and defied the odds. There's no better time for it since KT Rolster is actually, well, performing well and he no longer has the mindset of a 15 year old kid.
BTW, just admit it that you actually dislike Flash. I mean Jesus Christ, you're the guy who thought Hiya was going to crush him.
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On December 13 2009 15:28 lyhb wrote:
dont get me wrong people... i have loads and loads of respect for flash
even in his rainy days, i knew the kids was special. i dont dickride like mose of the flashtards atm
imo (again imo) flash tvz isnt legit until he beats zergs that are in his league or close to his...thats like me beating up 50 girls straight and say im the best fighter in the world
if he can keep up his tvz streak againts jd/zero then but only then
kwanro, hogil, effort, hero, yarnc, and type-b aren't really scrubs but ok
do whatever you can to discredit an osl winner who revolutionized the game lol
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These few coming weeks will be the proving grounds for Flash. Because whether you support him or not, he has ALWAYS beaten non-S class players with ease, except for the time where he didn't want to build turrets. Remember when he easied through 3 eSTRO players in less than half an hour, only to lose to BeSt, Upmagic, and Leta?
Of course, this time around, his TvT is proven against all the good terrans, and his TvZ has NEVER looked better. I believe his streak is legit, but is still untested against the best zergs. We can't translate that to facing the upper echelon of Zergs (Jaedong, ZerO, and the revived Effort) simply because Flash has never been contested by just normal A-level players. If he wins these next two series, then his TvZ is completely proven.
I guess what I'm saying is that using current form as an indicator against the best players doesn't really work for Flash.
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Obviously Flash needs to win against JD to make a complete statement about his TvZ.
What people are arguing against here are all the people who are like "you can't use Flash's streak to say he's the favorite" ... umm, yes we can. I don't think anyone said Flash was above 60% to win (except Kona haha thanks Kona =)) which is totally legit.
I mean, have you guys been watching Jaedong and Flash lately? Flash has played a ton of TvZs and is absolutely annihilating everyone not Protoss in general (30-0 streak against Terran and Zerg in Kespa games ... that's THIRTY straight wins).
Jaedong looked pretty shaky in PL round 1 and clearly hasn't been playing like his old self. He is looking better the last couple of weeks but even his OSL run was absolute cake - Pusan failed a cheese (great micro by JD but not exactly a test), go.go ULTRA FAILED a 14CC, and the game against Movie was meaningless. JD's MSL run was good but it was against Crazy-Hydra (a game he almost blew) and Stats.
I know JD just won a golden mouse but to say he's the favorite here is to give him an ENORMOUS benefit of the doubt relative to virtually no benefit of the doubt for Flash. Everything points to Flash being the favorite in this series except the "JD is a baller and you can never doubt him because he is such a huge baller", which is a great reason but not enough to outweigh everything else that has happened lately.
Flash has always rolled "mediocre" progamers true but in this current stretch there has just never been anything like this.
As for Flash/Zero, after watching games like Zero vs Hwasin on Heartbreak, combined with the MSL maps, I just can't fathom how Flash would lose that series. I'm going 80/20 Flash on that one, 60/40 Flash against JD.
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I'm not saying ZerO is the favorite, I'm pointing him out as a top zerg that will truly test Flash to prove his TvZ against the best.
"What people are arguing against here are all the people who are like "you can't use Flash's streak to say he's the favorite" ... umm, yes we can."
Cause he has always annihilated anyone not near the best of progaming. And he has shown that this does not always extrapolate to beating the best of progaming.
I havent said anything about Flash v. Jaedong, I think Flash is favored, but not as much as his streak would lead people to believe.
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flash is going to massage jaedong's colon
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On December 13 2009 16:24 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I'm not saying ZerO is the favorite, I'm pointing him out as a top zerg that will truly test Flash to prove his TvZ against the best.
"What people are arguing against here are all the people who are like "you can't use Flash's streak to say he's the favorite" ... umm, yes we can."
Cause he has always annihilated anyone not near the best of progaming. And he has shown that this does not always extrapolate to beating the best of progaming.
I havent said anything about Flash v. Jaedong, I think Flash is favored, but not as much as his streak would lead people to believe.
Yes, he almost always win against players who are not at the very top. But this time is different. Go back to Flash games couple of months ago and you will see that those wins come after fair game. This time the game is not fair. I watched Flash all TvZ games (some of them a couple of times to learn stuff as a T player) and I can say without any doubt that he looks as hot as ever in TvZ. None of his games was even close...
His streak is fucking legit and he proved it against all the best players except of Jaedong. I'm tired of the same shit "Flash always wins against medicore players but fails against top ones". Just compare his elo to other T players and you get the answer. He is bay FAR the best T player right now. And see how he destorys, I literally mean destroy, his opponents. These games show incredible domination.
That's why I am really looking forward to the match against Jaedong and Flash. Hopefully, the winner of that game will take the gold afterwards.
Against Zero Flash is a hug favourite but nonetheless Zero is really good so he has some chance to win. But if Jaedong can't, ten Zero will fail as well for sure...
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On December 13 2009 16:00 Avidkeystamper wrote:
These few coming weeks will be the proving grounds for Flash. Because whether you support him or not, he has ALWAYS beaten non-S class players with ease, except for the time where he didn't want to build turrets. Remember when he easied through 3 eSTRO players in less than half an hour, only to lose to BeSt, Upmagic, and Leta?
Of course, this time around, his TvT is proven against all the good terrans, and his TvZ has NEVER looked better. I believe his streak is legit, but is still untested against the best zergs. We can't translate that to facing the upper echelon of Zergs (Jaedong, ZerO, and the revived Effort) simply because Flash has never been contested by just normal A-level players. If he wins these next two series, then his TvZ is completely proven.
I guess what I'm saying is that using current form as an indicator against the best players doesn't really work for Flash.
I definitely know where this is coming from, but I think that the current Flash is more akin to his GSI/Bacchus self than his post-Bacchus self. We can't know for sure, but a lot of the evidence is pointing to Flash being in a better state than ever before: he's in tip-top form, he's in good health and physical condition, he's determined and hungry for a title but not overconfident (as is evidenced by his interviews), and he's no longer being worked to death in proleague. He's also an experienced player now. Everything is just falling into place for him.
Of course, Jaedong being who is, maybe none of that will matter. But at least Flash won't commit the grave error of underestimating him, as I think Fantasy did (just a bit).
I predict Flash 2-0* Jaedong, Flash 2-1 Zero. But if I'm mistaken and Flash loses the series to either of them, it will be to Jaedong and not Zero.
*I think the split Bo3 will work in Flash's favor, otherwise I'd call it 2-1.
Edit: "JD is a baller and you can never doubt him because he is such a huge baller" --- hahaha this is great and so true, no matter what recent stats may say <3
Edit2: I love how Flash and Jaedong fans love eachother and Bisu and Jaedong fans hate eachother. This discussion is so manner! Someone, please say something stupid and cocky just to get everyone riled up.
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I can't wait for the Flash/JD games. Being a huge fan of both, it will just result in a nerdgasm of epic proportions. Statistically, Flash is the favourite right now, but we all know what Jaedong can do in a situation like this... that is, rape shit.
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Flash>>>Jaedong
Simple as that
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So excited for JD and FlaSh. There's no way to call it, FlaSh could play every other Zerg in the world and still be unproven TvZ against someone of Jaedongs caliber and visa-versa. It's potentally the highest level ZvT in the history of the game; I only regret thats it's not a Bo5
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On December 14 2009 05:28 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 16:00 Avidkeystamper wrote:
These few coming weeks will be the proving grounds for Flash. Because whether you support him or not, he has ALWAYS beaten non-S class players with ease, except for the time where he didn't want to build turrets. Remember when he easied through 3 eSTRO players in less than half an hour, only to lose to BeSt, Upmagic, and Leta?
Of course, this time around, his TvT is proven against all the good terrans, and his TvZ has NEVER looked better. I believe his streak is legit, but is still untested against the best zergs. We can't translate that to facing the upper echelon of Zergs (Jaedong, ZerO, and the revived Effort) simply because Flash has never been contested by just normal A-level players. If he wins these next two series, then his TvZ is completely proven.
I guess what I'm saying is that using current form as an indicator against the best players doesn't really work for Flash. Edit2: I love how Flash and Jaedong fans love eachother and Bisu and Jaedong fans hate eachother. This discussion is so manner! Someone, please say something stupid and cocky just to get everyone riled up.
Actually I've seen a lot of Jaedong fans bash on Flash fans claiming that Flash's streak isn't legit and that Flash is going to get roflstomped by Jaedong.
Look through this very thread, you'll see it. Some of Jaedong's fans (not all) are extremely vicious.
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Flash's fans have been to heartbroken time and time again for over a year to be cocky to other top player fans. =(
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Well it is very civil compared to usual SKT1/Bisu/Fantasy vs other discussions =]
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Jaedong is going to be stomped so hard, he won't see it coming. can't wait. Say what you want now, but everyone will shut up after Flash 2:0 Jaedong.
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On December 14 2009 06:33 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2009 05:28 Djabanete wrote:On December 13 2009 16:00 Avidkeystamper wrote:
These few coming weeks will be the proving grounds for Flash. Because whether you support him or not, he has ALWAYS beaten non-S class players with ease, except for the time where he didn't want to build turrets. Remember when he easied through 3 eSTRO players in less than half an hour, only to lose to BeSt, Upmagic, and Leta?
Of course, this time around, his TvT is proven against all the good terrans, and his TvZ has NEVER looked better. I believe his streak is legit, but is still untested against the best zergs. We can't translate that to facing the upper echelon of Zergs (Jaedong, ZerO, and the revived Effort) simply because Flash has never been contested by just normal A-level players. If he wins these next two series, then his TvZ is completely proven.
I guess what I'm saying is that using current form as an indicator against the best players doesn't really work for Flash. Edit2: I love how Flash and Jaedong fans love eachother and Bisu and Jaedong fans hate eachother. This discussion is so manner! Someone, please say something stupid and cocky just to get everyone riled up. Actually I've seen a lot of Jaedong fans bash on Flash fans claiming that Flash's streak isn't legit and that Flash is going to get roflstomped by Jaedong. Look through this very thread, you'll see it. Some of Jaedong's fans (not all) are extremely vicious.
I think it's because we find it unfair that people still dont value JD as he should be. He defied odds twice to win back to back OSLs AND the Golden Mouse. And a strong Flash in the last three months is apparently enough to take his greatest player title away again.
I am sure even if he beats Flash convincingly, people will still doubt him like when it comes down to Stork vs JD finals and Stork is in better "form". "Nah JD played like crap in January, he has no chance to beat Stork" and so on.
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EPT
