Fellow Zergs, do you remember the day Terrans started realising they could fast expand too? Oh how we giggled and snorted and tittered away. How for so long we'd made them think only we could fast expand. Fellow Zergs, do you remember the day Protosses started realising they could fast expand too? Oh how we giggled and snorted and tittered away. How for so long we'd made them think only we could fast expand. But fellow Zergs, they are laughing at us right now. How a Terran knows to place his supply depots just above his barracks to make an impassible wall. How a Protoss knows to place his gateway just above his forge to make an impassible wall. But somewhere inside of us, we're realising we can wall too. We can place are buildings as cleverly as any Protoss or Terran.
It's not news to high level Zergs that building positioning is still important. It isn't news now, and it wasn't news in 1999. But so many low level Zergs think that because they're not Protoss or Terran, they don't have any good options or reason to choose especially where they place their buildings. This is a wake up call. I'm telling you it is, and it will save your butt in a lot of games. I'm not a great player myself, so I won't say any of the following are the best positions. But I will say that they have thought in them, and your building positioning needs thought too. Even if it's on the fly and you aren't memorising anything, be sure to keep this is mind next time you play.
This is something I do a lot in ZvZ. The spawning pool is build to the right of the extractor, helping to block my peons that are mining gas. My peons that are mining gas are helping to block the sunken colony from Zerglings as well. With some good drone micro, you can cost your opponent a lot of Zerglings and save yourself a number of drones with these tight spaces. Notice also that the extractor helps to block the sunken. Notice that the sunken protects the most important buildings, the extractor, and the spawning pool (and of course the hatchery and the mineral line). Don't build your spawning pool in some stupid random location in a ZvZ. If you build a second hatchery, and you need a second sunken, you should build your hatchery in such a way that it will help protect your new sunken from two sides. IE right under the first hatchery, 1 or two matrixes to the right.
Remember also that when you build ANYTHING, especially in ZvZ, use the drone that is mining from the farthest minerals to build it, or at least move a drone that was mining from a far away mineral to a close mineral that you just took a drone off of.
This is another good wall, which is strong vs vultures, but gives you less bridge control.
Destination is one of the most important maps to be making maximum use of your buildings. Against Terran, the above settup will help prevent a vulture runby. Notice that the Terran would get stuck on your hatcheries and den if he went straight in. Notice that the drones mining minerals and gas would make it still difficult to swoop around. Notice that the sunken is right at the edge between the bridges. This is very good against a meching Terran. Mech is very common on Destination.
This one is actually probably better, because it puts your evochamber in less danger, while still making use of it.
Destination ZvP is also demanding in the way you must place your buildings. If your opponent is rushing with many Zealots, and an archon, this can be a powerful settup. Notice how the sunkens are placed behind the buildings. Walled off like cannons behind a forge and gateway. Notice the path zealots must take to get to them for a surrond. Through the drones? How troublesome. An evolution chamber is a small investment even if you don't need the upgrade right away, but defence is critical. Sometimes it's better than another sunken. Imagine your frustration when medics block your zerglings from attacking marines. That is the frustration the Protoss faces in this set up. A-move is not enough against a smart settup.
A fast zealot push is always a pain. Against 2 gate zealots, do you often complain? Learn to position your units then, idiot. Maybe you don't have three hatch, but there is no reason to throw your sunk down way out in front. Put it right beside you hatchery. This will help you. Make sure you leave room for large units (like ultralisks) in the late game to run through.
It isn't limited to just your main, or your natural. All expos should have thought put into them. This settup risks the evolution chamber's saftey, but if you are being threated by a very fast attack, it may be exactly what you need.
Again, I am no expert, and there are probably even better ways to position your buildings than these examples. I just want to stimulate thought about Zerg building positioning, and make sure any nooby Zergs aren't ignoring a very important aspect of Zerg play. Please post positions you've found helpful if you can.
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On August 25 2009 07:24 Saracen wrote: These building orientations are zeal-proof
Spire is really fucking tight and can block most things.
On August 25 2009 08:57 Chef wrote: The following are visual examples of possible walls. Yellow means lings can go between the buildings, but Zealots can't, Red means neither can. A light blue 'H' means Hydras CAN go between them, but Zealots can't.
HOOOOLY CRAP :O I believe I've just discovered something incredible. Something possible never seen before, on the oldest map in StarCraft, no less.
This wall is ling tight. This wall is not repeatable on any of the other positions, but may be repeatable on other maps. On python I've been able to make zealot tight walls.
Creep does not extend close enough to the edge of cliffs facing the south. The only reason this works, is because creep DOES extend very close to the edge of cliffs facing the north, and the THE EAST (and probably the west as well).
Why is this important? Think of the ridiculous advantage you'd have in ZvZ if you could make a wall and your opponent couldn't. You get a huge economy, skip ling speed, get insanely fast muta. Wow. And all the cheesy strats you can dream of in ZvP. :O This excites me very much. If you see this opportunity in another map, be sure to post it in this thread. Maybe I'm wrong to get so excited and someone else has seen this before, but I feel like it's new... Something new in an 11 year old game :D
In any case, it's a brand new dynamic for map makers to play with, especially if they make it possible at the natural or have an in base expansion so zerg can maintain a good economy.
As a D+ zerg who has recently discovered walling, I give this thread an A+ rating, and maybe I'll experiment around with some placements. We need a screen of the 3rd on heartbreak, incase someone doesn't know.
What about if the Terran runs vultures around the right hand side of your minerals and into your main? He could only take 1 or 2 hits from the sunken and completely bypass it.
Thanks for the zvp positioning on desti. I always have trouble with that
I haven't watched this game in a while, but Jaedong had really good building positioning for the bottom position's 3rd base on desti that really influenced the outcome of the game.
On August 13 2009 08:33 Marine50 wrote: What about if the Terran runs vultures around the right hand side of your minerals and into your main? He could only take 1 or 2 hits from the sunken and completely bypass it.
Thanks for the zvp positioning on desti. I always have trouble with that
I think that it still buys you time (imagine what happens without a wall at all?). You also get a lot more than 1 or two hits with the way those bridges are positioned... You'll kill the vulture if it's alone for sure, and if it's not a map with bridges, I always put the sunken closer to the hatchery. It's not like you don't have any zerglings either, it's just that you can't engage vultures with Zerglings in open ground where they have room you micro. But for sure if he's dicking around by your minerals, 4-6 lings will screw him up.
Anyway, if you have a wall that works better than that, or a good reason why the wall is worse than not walling at all, I'd love to hear it.
I haven't watched this game in a while, but Jaedong had really good building positioning for the bottom position's 3rd base on desti that really influenced the outcome of the game.
Yeah, and even though there are gaps where a zealot can walk between buildings (which would be singlefile and bad anyway) look at the way the morphing eggs make it even harder on the Protoss. Jaedong would have had to spend so much more on defence if he hadn't walled.
On August 13 2009 08:33 Marine50 wrote: What about if the Terran runs vultures around the right hand side of your minerals and into your main? He could only take 1 or 2 hits from the sunken and completely bypass it.
Thanks for the zvp positioning on desti. I always have trouble with that
I think that it still buys you time (imagine what happens without a wall at all?). You also get a lot more than 1 or two hits with the way those bridges are positioned... You'll kill the vulture if it's alone for sure, and if it's not a map with bridges, I always put the sunken closer to the hatchery. It's not like you don't have any zerglings either, it's just that you can't engage vultures with Zerglings in open ground where they have room you micro. But for sure if he's dicking around by your minerals, 4-6 lings will screw him up.
Anyway, if you have a wall that works better than that, or a good reason why the wall is worse than not walling at all, I'd love to hear it.
Place the sunk closer to the nat gas.
Also, I'd move the den back towards minerals a bit.
And at bottom, I know you can completely seal with spire to left of extractor but I haven't tried it at top. >_>
Zerg Walls are so imbalanced PvZ damn especialy with some lurker + sunken backup they make entire protoss armies freak out and die. Pisses me off big time ;D
Sunken placement is everything. In the above picture the sunken covers the gas, but doesn't protect your workers mining the bottom minerals. A few marines/vultures behind the mineral line can still do a lot of damage.
Personally I would move the sunken down more, but still enough to cover the extractor from melee units. I've seen a few ZvZ games where one player screwed the other over because he could zergling snipe the extractor before mutas come out, just because the sunken was a tile too low.
On August 13 2009 12:29 n.DieJokes wrote: Nice thread, I was kind of hoping you would tell us which buildings in which ways make perfect walls (or zealot walls)
Sunken placement is everything. In the above picture the sunken covers the gas, but doesn't protect your workers mining the bottom minerals. A few marines/vultures behind the mineral line can still do a lot of damage.
Personally I would move the sunken down more, but still enough to cover the extractor from melee units. I've seen a few ZvZ games where one player screwed the other over because he could zergling snipe the extractor before mutas come out, just because the sunken was a tile too low.
You can easily move your drones away from the bottom. You need to put the sunken there so your drones can slide along the bottom/right sides of the sunken to glitch the zerglings when they are attacking the sunk. Although the spawning pool should be moved down 1 space, the space left open under the spawning pool is too big in that setup.
Also, you can use the same hatch-den-hatch setup in desti's nat in ZvP as you can in ZvT. As long as you place the sunkens on the ramp-side of the wall.
On August 13 2009 12:29 n.DieJokes wrote: Nice thread, I was kind of hoping you would tell us which buildings in which ways make perfect walls (or zealot walls)
A hatchery OVER an evolution is ling tight. An evolution chamber over a hatchery is not even zealot tight.
Other than that, the knowledge isn't really useful. The info is all there in the wiki though if you wanna do the math.
hAHAHAHAHA OMFG. Look what I just discovered. I wasn't able to do it on any other position, but 9 o clock you can make a ling tight wall.
I was very tempted not to even share this, but in the interests of science, I suppose I won't pretend I didn't discover it
lol, that's a weird ass wall
Do you use that 3rd setup on desti often? I still use Shark's old setup of Den-Hatch-Hatch. It seems like the units would have a tough time getting out through that base unless the units can pass to the left of the leftmost hatchery.
Hopefully we can get some people posting their sim cities here, I'll try to update this with a few more later. There are really only a few that I know work really well, the others i just kind of half ass it.
Zealots can barely fit between the 2 hatcheries, although they are really are pain to micro through there. Most P's will just run their zealots away, but if they try to attack through the gap between the left-hatch/gas it's pretty easy to micro your drones to survive.
With the evo chamber this is 100% zealot tight. You can add the evo chamber at the last second and either cancel it after P leaves, or just destroy it later. 75 minerals is completely worth the added defense. If you don't want to add the evo, you can move the hydra den over 1 space to the left, and that will close the gap a bit more.
The evo can be added last second to make the wall zealot proof for the most part. 1 zealot can attack the top sunken colony, but that's not going to matter. I use this one a ton since you can still fit 2 more hatcheries in the nat using this set-up.
Colo2 anti-vult runby wall that you will probably never use+ Show Spoiler +
It's kind of useless since this is really the only position I could figure out a wall for, but if you 2hatch muta alot vs mech, it can pretty much win a game outright for you vs 2fact vult.
On August 13 2009 08:33 Marine50 wrote: What about if the Terran runs vultures around the right hand side of your minerals and into your main? He could only take 1 or 2 hits from the sunken and completely bypass it.
Thanks for the zvp positioning on desti. I always have trouble with that
Zerg building positioning I find is crucial in 2v2 and 3v3. I have literally defended like @ least 7 zealots one time just with drones and good sunken placement, so it's good to know.
Awesome thread! I like your critique of zerg "not having to wall like t or p lol", and I myself is kinda bad at walling/ forget to do it and lose plenty of games because of it. Keep up the pictures of the walls guys! It's a great inspiration!
really good post, building placement as zerg is something that has been overlooked for a long time. (mainly because zergs have been too lazy to try and get the best wall in in case they screw up placement.)
Most of the time zerg walls are not meant to be so tight to the point where units can't get by, but just tight enough to make movements difficult. The wall on desti's third base, for example, doesn't block anything, but it makes it really hard for units to reach the sunkens, which is all that is needed.
You're exactly right, w3jjjjj. Don't worry about perfect perfect building positioning in most cases guys. As long as you're impeding zealot movement, you're improving your settup. Later in the game adding a lurker in that mess just makes Protoss players give up on attacking your 3rd on Desti (at least after they've lost 10 Zealots trying to get to the action ^^). At worst you're giving yourself more time to create reinforcements.
The perfect wall though, is just such an interesting concept to me. I'm going to post the idea on BWMN and see if they want to make a few maps incorporating that, and if they do, Korean's will probably see it to and have some fun with it and we might see it in progaming :O That's how it happened with neutral D-web ahahah.
I would like to see some ideas for new maps like outsider, medusa, heartbreak (i know this one should upload) etc. I find that paying attention when watching proleague really helps here are two used by great and ace that are a bit different
On August 14 2009 02:40 Chef wrote: You're exactly right, w3jjjjj. Don't worry about perfect perfect building positioning in most cases guys. As long as you're impeding zealot movement, you're improving your settup. Later in the game adding a lurker in that mess just makes Protoss players give up on attacking your 3rd on Desti (at least after they've lost 10 Zealots trying to get to the action ^^). At worst you're giving yourself more time to create reinforcements.
The perfect wall though, is just such an interesting concept to me. I'm going to post the idea on BWMN and see if they want to make a few maps incorporating that, and if they do, Korean's will probably see it to and have some fun with it and we might see it in progaming :O That's how it happened with neutral D-web ahahah.
idk if you can be that lackadaiscal about your wall. If you have 8+ hydras behind a decent wall with some sunkens, you are probably going to be ok, but with certain builds in ZvP you are just going to be defending with lings/drones and sunkens until mutas get out. And a great wall will be the difference between stalling the zealots for 20 seconds to get your mutas out, and watching as speedlots wreck your shit.
Oh god those LT building placements are sexy... i don't even play zerg and i think that they are amazing. Hopefully zerg will start to realize that they can and should wall-in and then we can have another huge change in metagame.
Sunken placement is everything. In the above picture the sunken covers the gas, but doesn't protect your workers mining the bottom minerals. A few marines/vultures behind the mineral line can still do a lot of damage.
Personally I would move the sunken down more, but still enough to cover the extractor from melee units. I've seen a few ZvZ games where one player screwed the other over because he could zergling snipe the extractor before mutas come out, just because the sunken was a tile too low.
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Well, this placement was for ZvZ, and to deal with the problem of vulnerable mineral patches below you could make a temporary evo on the bottom of your minerals (and cancel it if zerglings doesn't attack. I believe this has been done in a couple of ZvZ games, most recently hyvaa vs hoejja on colosseum. The sunken is placed that high to protect the drones so they can drill between the gap of the sunken and pool. If it's placed any lower it kind of loses its purpose.
On August 14 2009 13:15 ghermination wrote: Oh god those LT building placements are sexy... i don't even play zerg and i think that they are amazing. Hopefully zerg will start to realize that they can and should wall-in and then we can have another huge change in metagame.
Zerg's already do realize they can wall in. Watch any ZvP or most mech ZvT and you will see that. There are just much fewer situations where a zerg wall is possible, or even helpful. Zergs cant just wall off random places because of creep limitations, and in most situations cluttering up the battlefield will end up hurting the zerg instead of helping. In almost all of the situations where a wall is possible and helpful for zerg are already, they are already being used.
My God I feel so stupid for neglecting good building placement all this time haha. Thanks, you have opened my eyes. This will definitely help me prevent losing my 3rd all the damn time on Destination
I've always tried to do building placement such that it's hard for zealots to run in and kill my sunkens (or just run right past my entire nat into my main -_-).
However, I've discovered that you should be very careful when making your simcities. Alot of the times I find that fatass lurkers get stuck when you have a nice wall and the only way for them to get out is through the mineral lines (you could always destroy stuff, but usually I use evo chambers to wall and they're doing upgrades..)
Well, for all you Zerg users, here are some completely zeal-tight walls (no need to egg block) for both positions on Desti. They each use 2 evos, 1 den, 4 hatch, and 1 spire per spawning location (nat + 3rd). Enjoy...
On August 25 2009 07:24 Saracen wrote: Well, for all you Zerg users, here are some completely zeal-tight walls (no need to egg block) for both positions on Desti. They each use 2 evos, 1 den, 4 hatch, and 1 spire per spawning location (nat + 3rd). Enjoy...
Spire is really fucking tight and can block most things.
Really, really nice work, thanks for figuring these out. What concerns me in game is the ability of your own units to get in and out of your base (such as in the case of being dropped, or just macroing units from your main hatchery and trying to get them out of your natural asap).
Knowing those key orientations however, is excellent.
On August 25 2009 07:24 Saracen wrote: Well, for all you Zerg users, here are some completely zeal-tight walls (no need to egg block) for both positions on Desti. They each use 2 evos, 1 den, 4 hatch, and 1 spire per spawning location (nat + 3rd). Enjoy...
Spire is really fucking tight and can block most things.
Really, really nice work, thanks for figuring these out. What concerns me in game is the ability of your own units to get in and out of your base (such as in the case of being dropped, or just macroing units from your main hatchery and trying to get them out of your natural asap).
Knowing those key orientations however, is excellent.
Oops, bottom position is passable between hatch-hatch. I'll fix that in a sec. Yeah, you're right. Your units will have to struggle through the drone line. However, I'm pretty sure the larvae spawn on the outside of the hatchery, so it'll still be a problem for some of your hatcheries, but not all of them. Also, hydras can fit through den-hatch, whereas zealots can't, so the 3rds should be fine as long as you don't morph lurkers behind the hatches. (For the bottom 3rd, though, don't put your bottom sunk there. That happens to wall off your hydras - oops, lol.)
i was watching lz's stream and he had to fight against this simcity, he said it was so good that he would use it. The dead building was an evo.
Off-topic: What's the name of the app between Iccup icon and Daemon's tools icon at the traybar?? I was trying very hard to remember it's name sometime ago, but i couldn't ^^ thanks a lot!
Okay, Chef. Here's an updated version of Desti Walls. The walls for the 3rds are "perfect" (hydras can pass through but zealots can't). I included "open" and "closed" versions for the nat walls (note: you could make perfect nat walls as well if you were willing to build a second den), "open" being you need to egg block (you'll have to larva trick first to get your larvae in the correct position - the opening is between the two hatcheries) in order for the wall to be completely sealed, but it lets your hydras pass through, and "closed" being completely hydra/zealot/lurker/ultra/whatever-proof.
The following are visual examples of possible walls. Yellow means lings can go between the buildings, but Zealots can't, Red means neither can. A light blue 'H' means Hydras CAN go between them, but Zealots can't.
Saracen I'm a little concerned of the ability to build that spire so far away from the nat hatch. That 2nd hatch won't be complete, or even placed, by the time you need to make that spire, are you sure the creep extends that far without making a sunken first?
I think alot of those walls are a little impractical.
Just tested, but no screenies cause I'm lazy sorry
Bottom spire is possible, but top one isn't. However, you can just move it up one space for the same effect.
They are impractical a bit. First of all, they expose your spire. Second, assuming +1 speedzeal timing, you're getting two evos as, supposedly, 5 hatch hydra, where you only get one in the beginning (i'm assuming for gas? i'm still not clear why you can't get both). However, you CAN morph the second evo as they're coming to attack, and you'll have money if they're timing is right since you're supposed to be just switching to hydras.
How would you change the positioning in your first image for ZvZ if you knew you were going to be putting another hatchery in your main? I usually move the pool and the colony closer to my hatchery and then put my 2nd hatchery directly under (and one to the right due to closeness of minerals) my first hatchery - is there a better way?
Good post. I've been trying to improve my building placement to optimize the protection that my sunkens provide, and to make my ramp less accessible. Thanks for this!
I never use simcity as zerg. and desti for me is hardest map.. But since you guys are mainly focusing on desti makes me think this is why I have such trouble with it. But also I usually only get 1 sunken.. Should I be getting more?
On October 22 2009 21:30 Mobius wrote: I never use simcity as zerg. and desti for me is hardest map.. But since you guys are mainly focusing on desti makes me think this is why I have such trouble with it. But also I usually only get 1 sunken.. Should I be getting more?
Depends on what the opponent does. The only situation in which I get more than 1 sunken is if the opponent is ling all-inning (like what Jaedong did in g1 of OSL finals).
On October 22 2009 12:38 Crunchums wrote: How would you change the positioning in your first image for ZvZ if you knew you were going to be putting another hatchery in your main? I usually move the pool and the colony closer to my hatchery and then put my 2nd hatchery directly under (and one to the right due to closeness of minerals) my first hatchery - is there a better way?
pool left one pixel and sunken down one pixel. is how i do it
On October 22 2009 12:38 Crunchums wrote: How would you change the positioning in your first image for ZvZ if you knew you were going to be putting another hatchery in your main? I usually move the pool and the colony closer to my hatchery and then put my 2nd hatchery directly under (and one to the right due to closeness of minerals) my first hatchery - is there a better way?
pool left one pixel and sunken down one pixel. is how i do it
I find that putting the pool one to the left slows down my gas mining, but putting the sunken one down does cover the 2nd hatchery.
Since Fighting Spirit and Tornado are now motw, now is a good time as any for reference points on how to sim city on these two maps. (Note: credit for the following simcities goes to anonymous koreans on pgr21)
1.) On top of hatchery, zerglings can pass but hydras and zealots can't. 2.) Between hydra den and hatchery, zerglings and hydra can pass but zealots can't 3.) Zerglings Hydras, and Zealots can all pass to right of hatchery
1.) Between hydra den and hatchery, zerglings, hydras, and zealots can pass. 2.) Hatchery and evolution chamber equals zerglings can pas but not hydras or zealots.
1.) Between hydra den and hatchery, zerglings and hydras can pass but not zealots. 2.) On top of hatchery or to the right, zerglings, hydras, and zealots can all pass.
Zealots can only pass between hatchery and evolution chamber and you can stop that with larvas. Zergling and hydra pass through hydralisk den and hatchery.
Credit goes to anonymous koreans as well as google translate. l10f deserves special mention and thanks for helping me slay the beast that can be google translate at times too.
Using a Den AND and evo is probably not the greatest idea. Sure, you defend your nat, but why are you two basing vs an FE protoss? Against vulture harass you can pretty easily do hatch den sunk hatch to block off your stuff. Vs protoss zealot harass you can just tuck a sunk between a hatch and a den, it's no big deal. That way you get to use an evo and 2 hatches at your expo.
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