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Replay:
I can't think of a way to beat the toss's strategy in this game. The gas steal forces me to choose to attack the assimilator with many SCVs, sacrificing economy, or delay my tech. I choose to delay my tech, and expand with the excess minerals. However, I am at a severe military disadvantage, so I can't defend properly against his attack with the goon and shuttle, even though he expanded as well. My military disadvantage is what I think lost me the game. This is my first strat forum thread, so please let me know if there is something wrong with this post, and thanks for reading!
What I did wrong:
1) I could and should have finished my wall with the SCV building my rax. That would have saved me from building the bunker next to my wall and eliminate the zealot threat.
2) I should have attacked the manner pylon blocking my wall first instead of the shield batteries. Killing the pylon would allow me to finish the wall and render the shield batteries useless.
3) I should have blocked off my ramp using a few SCVs, which would have been better than letting the zealots in. The zealots set me back both SCVs and mining time.
4) I don't think the early Command Center was a good idea. That response won me games before, but in this game, the toss was aggressive throughout the game. I thought the bunker was enough to defend, but I did not have the army nor the tech to justify that expansion.
Questions:
1) What is the optimal reaction to gas steal on Python? Looking through old threads, I see most people either plop down a second rax, 1 rax FE, or attack the gas with SCVs. Rines die to good goon micro, so I don't think a second rax would be good. The natural is too open to defend with a bunker when doing 1 rax FE, so right now I'm thinking the best method is to take down the gas and then play standard.
2) When the toss zealot rushes and I successfully defend, how can I take advantage of the situation? It always seems like the toss has a powerful enough army to pressure me while expanding at the same time, leaving me both economically and militarily behind.
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You will probably get a few posts on how to react to gas steal, I cant help you there because I adjust my play so that I don't get my gas stolen. Generally a gas steal gives the toss so much of an advantage your screwed anyway.
First of all I no longer get my gas on 12, I get rax&gas on 11. This means you have to skip an SCV but hey first of all its safer against a probe in your base and secondly your first tank comes out faster which helps you fight off any attempt at early goon pressure with great ease.
Secondly if you see a probe come into your base, keep an eye on it, if it looks like its going to your assimilation, move a SCV over there and if you have to, cancel an scv and get the gas before he does. Early gas is no where near a problem as stolen gas.
Lastly, stop playing on python.
Moral of my post: 11 rax/gas owns.
Oh sorry I didn't watch the replay but I read he pyloned your wall and shat on you... Look in stylishes thread on how to micro vs zealots and have popper building positioning (I think its in is general FAQ vods).
You can usually tell if a probe wants to pylon you, whether it be manner, wall or to block your machine shop. Generally what I do is harrass with a SCV to block where he wants to build, like you would if u were trying to stop a drone from doing a 12hatch.
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i hate people who answer in these kind of threads without watching the replay.
if i see a probe in my base before i get gas, i immediately cancel building scvs and make a refinery
anyway when your gas is stolen you should attack the assimilator with at least 4 scvs, his tech will also be slightly delayed because he spent money on a assimilator and that brings out your tank in time to defend. Building a CC is the wrong decision, if the protoss didnt messed up his bo he would have had much earlier dragoons and you would have been dead at that point already. if he puts a pylon in your wallin, you know hes gonna go at you with zealots. i would have gone at it with scvs to get it down as soon as possible and build a depot there right away, the zealots become useless and that makes up for the time the scvs cant mine.
then u finally had your tank out but you should have probably left it on the cliff or at least nearer to the ramp. you where like 5seconds away from siege finishing and he could not have harrased you anymore.
but even if you had done these things, he was way ahead in supply, you just didnt make scvs constantly, it isnt easy with that constant harass, but its really important in that early stage in the game. you got your cc way faster than he took his nat, you should have built scvs from it while it was still in your main.
but what you could also do if you see him taking your gas, building a pylon in the wallin and shield battery, is build a second rax, and at about 6 marines go with them and about 10 scvs to his base, because you know he wont have much since he spent so many minerals in your base already.
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Gas steal comes so early that you can still probably leave the game without getting a loss. So leave the game.
(I'm joking.)
(Or am I?)
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Make the refinery as his probe is going for your gas. Cancel a building scv if you have to. Then take that scv back to minerals and go back to the refinery at a normal time.
If he pylons your wall just stay calm and produce marines, delay your gas slightly to get more marines before the factory and then just micro vs the first zealot. Try not to take any hits with the marines. Pull them back to scvs if you have to. Remember to allways kill the probe before the zealot so he can't deal as much damage to your marines.
Additional things you could have done to save the game:
When he pyloned your ramp you should have brought 4 scvs to block it vs the zealot. A pylon block means a zealot will come and if you can block it until you can remake the wall you will be in an advantage.
Your bunker at the nat was out of place. It needs to stop him from running around to the back of your nat. You can wall it off by liftnig barracks there and placing a supply / clog it with and scv or two.
You put your first tank in a very dangerous position and when he moved in so far you should have gone up the ramp with it. When you lose your first tank you almost allways need to completely wall your nat off (with either barracks, ebay and supply or barracks and two supplies). That way you can defend it with one tank and scvs repairing while your other two or three tanks are dealing with the reaver / dt harass. Basically any time you're clearly behind early game you should wall your nat off with a goon and zeal tight wall because you'll need less tanks to defend it.
You had alot of minerals after a while and should have made more turrets. Possibly one with a hovering ebay over it so he might get lured into losing his dropship. If you're unsure about what strategy he is going and your turrets do not shut him out completely from your main you should allways make 4 tanks before the first vulture. If your turrets cover all entrances you should still make three tanks because there is no way you will be able to hold of a reaver drop or DT drop with 2 tanks if he moves into your nat with goons at the same time. Vultures are used for scouting and offensive mining when you open siege expand so don't build them until you are safe.
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On May 02 2009 20:40 rkarhu wrote:
Gas steal comes so early that you can still probably leave the game without getting a loss. So leave the game.
(I'm joking.)
(Or am I?)
just in case some people think they can do this, toss can report you to iccup admins if you leave after a gas steal
"Whenever a player leaves the game before 2 min. mark and that player scouts and sees unfavorable build to him like 5 pool or a proxy rush or anything that would imply great disadvantage (this also applies for taking gas where usually terran players leave the game), admins are obligated to give him -100 points penalty for 1st offense and icnrease it by a factor of 100 for enxt ones (2nd -200 3rd -300 etc.). the game itself is not reported" from iccup website
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Imo vs gas steal vs a good protoss player the only thing you can do in my opinion is grab all SCV and attack him together with marine rally.
You are mostly so far behind especialy when he didnt proxy but just went standard 10 gate (core slightly later) and managed to grab your gas.
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I watched the replay..you really need to tighten up your build order and scv timings. Stylish's FPVODs are the golden standard for Terran guides (or any kind of guide, for that matter).
The gas trick is rough if he finds you on the first try... haven't really found a clean way to counter it but may put down the refinery (cancel scv production if I need minerals) and then hit ESC to bring the SCV back to minerals. Then I continue the refinery around 12-13 depending on what build.
Another option is to block your ramp with a 9/10 scv while your depot is building. Weakens economy but it's the only full proof way...needs micro and liberal use of "stop" command. This will deter the gas trick long enough for the toss to abandon it because he/she needs to spend the minerals on build. I also do this every time I wall because a toss can really demolish a Terran with an incomplete wall via pylons.
If you get gassed, 4scv attack is the standard to kill it, although I have been known to pull all my scvs to get it done faster....beware of 2nd gas trick.
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First off, in the past 2 months there have been 2 topics concerning pvt gas steal. Search the teamliquid strategy forum and you will find the exact answers you are looking for.
I am a pvt player and I love to gas steal but I almost never pull it off vs a better player cause they just cancel scvs and make assimilator before I have time to take the gas.
Also, it seems that a strong way to respond is to fast expand with a bunker. I am not sure the exact BO for this and I am not sure if you should get early academy with this. Bunker gives you +1 range and w/ marine range I think you can handle ranged goons. Otherwise you would just have to repair the bunker and wait for tanks to come out. Anyways- search for that topic and you will get some good advice.
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In close positions like that you should try a scv/rine/bunker rush when he takes your gas.
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You should use either 11/11 or 12/12 gas/rax every TvP you play, and if you see him going for your gas then start the refinery and take the SCV off it straight away and use it to battle the early scouting probe. Resume construction of the refinery with another SCV when you start your Barracks. By doing this you're guaranteed to never lose your gas.
If your gas is taken then wait till it's finished building before you start attacking or they'll just cancel and remake if it's gonna be damaged when it completes.
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