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I'm posting this for a friend named jav that needs some advice before a 2v2 SC lan (he couldn't post due to 10 day restriction on spammers -.-) here is his question/post:
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Hey TL, I need some input here, because I'm not the greatest SC player around  . My friend and I are hosting a 2v2 BW tournament at our next local LAN coming up this mid February, and I could use some help preparing. We're Terran/Protoss, and we're looking for some strategies / basic 2v2 mechanics and how it differentiates from standard SC 1v1 play. We have no idea how to go about 2v2 SC, because we're both solo players. I've heard T+P is terrible in 2v2, so should we switch up the races a bit?
So, in a nut shell we're looking for somebody to sum up what's effective and what's not as general strategy in 2v2 T+P play. Map-wise, we'll probably be playing Python throughout the entire tournament, as most of our opponents are n00bs who don't really care what map they play on.
Thanks a bunch!
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M&M/Zealots into Dragoons/Dts/reavers/Hts and MMT/mech.
But honestly it really depends on the matchup as well as the builds your opponent does.
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Belgium9881 Posts
Heavily dependant on matchup and maps.
TP can be 'ok' on some maps, but overall its kinda terrible (if you think you'll encounter a lot of ZZ it can be ok). I suggest one of you switch to Z. PZ and TZ are both very viable on python.
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btw when you watch the reps make sure you note what races they are vs, build orders differ by match up.
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Swap someone to Z. Probably for the sake of not knowing how to play 2v2, swap the T to Z and play a ZP, because it's a lot easier on the P than it is on the T in a TZ team.
Generally speaking, TP is good on a map with easy expos, because once the T and P have expos they will just roll the PZ/TZ team. So, when you play PT/Z vs TP, your whole goal is to get your Z to expand and prevent both T and P from expoing. Andromeda is an example of a decent TP map, with 3 easy bases for the P and T to take.
For PZ, just in terms of very basic ideas, and for 2v2 beginners:
PZ vs TZ
Have the Z 9p or 12p, depending on what you feel like. P can open 2 gate forge, and cannon the ramp for the zerg. Have zerg get fast mutas. P techs to DT and storm, expos with cannons, while the Z controls the TZ's Z. A common counter to this is for the T to bunker the protoss natural, get vessel tech with irradiate, and expand. To counter this, the protoss sometimes needs to get reavers. Another common BO is the 5zealotgoon, with your ally 9 pooling. 5z + 9pool lings can take the enemy zerg + 2 sunkens, any more than 2 sunkens + lings and you should not attack. If you are unable to kill the opponent zerg, simply close his ramp with your zealots/lings and use your goons to micro the MM. It is imperative that the zerg remain closed so that your goons can kill the MM in peace. You can either expo with cannons or tech to dt depending on how good you are at goon micro vs MM. Basically if you go goons, you absolutely cannot let the enemy lings out. If you close him and he starts teching, then that's fine; just have your ally drone up and tech. the PZ z should have made a ramp hatch vs TZ and it will take a ridiculous number of MM to break him once he's turtled up. Also, if the TZ z just turtles up super hard, goons with range are very effective at killing sunkens.
PZ vs PZ. If you have very good micro control, (or just better than your "n00b" opponents)then this match up is quite easy unless the opponents turn it into a turtlefest. Simply open 2 gate, into 3 gate zealots, with a 9 pool. Fight in the middle. If the opponent Z 12ps, you close his ramp with 3 zealots and then double the protoss. Most likely once you close the Z's ramp, he will either start teching or he'll hatch out and try to sunken the ramp to get you off of it. If he lairs, then the P will turtle too, and you can safely tech. Often what will then happen is the middle ling/zealot fights will be inconclusive, P will either go 3 gate goons with range and no obs or they'll go dt with no obs. It's very common for both P to go dt and then both to expo with cannons and get their economy going while the zerg's have muta fights and harass shit. The dts on both sides contain both P's while this is going on. Then it's just a matter of making as many archons and speedzealots as possible and getting obs when you can to move out. In PZ vs PZ don't bother with storm until mid-late game fights, because mass archons are much more effective vs toss speedlot army + mass mutas/lings.
PZ vs TP. The easiest strat is simply SUPER fast dt. your ally 9 pools, keeps them in, you have 2 dts at 4:30, even if you cant kill them, you just sit at their nat and stop them from moving or expoing. You expo, get storm or w/e you want, and kill them. If you know what you're doing, you can also open something like 3gate goon.
Anyways this is just a really fast cap of 2v2. If you want more info, let me know I can add in the specific BOs for things like 3gz, and 5zg etc or go into more detail about any questions you might have.
My advice is that if you are playing opponents who know what they're doing at all, you should not play TP. If they are noobs and much worse than you, then it won't really matter. In the case that you do choose to play TP, I'll just list the best strats I've found vs TZ and PZ teams.
TP vs PZ: Mass MM + leg zealot + obs timing push. You need a good BO for this, the toss will likely open goons so the P needs to forge fairly quickly and get a cannon or two on his ramp before going into his tech. You both just turtle until you have the units you need. The P will have maybe 10-12 speed zealots + your mass MM (4 rax). This will rape any sort of mass goon, small goon + some dt, zerg expo, toss expo, etc strat. Don't come out unless they are stupid and leave some really ridiculous timing window like making 15 slow zealots and then the zerg expoing...in that case just kill them with MM before obs, cause it won't matter.
TP vs TZ: T opens 2 port cloaked wraith, P goes 3 gate goon into obs + expo. Real simple. Kill zerg ols, snipe mutas with cloak, make the terran go goliath tank with scanners fast instead of vult tank so that your P ally's goons are more effective. On Python, this is even more effective, because you can easily make a dropship after 5-6 wraiths and take your island quickly as T, giving you the 2nd gas you need without having to take your nat.
I have many replays of my 2v2 games, if you want a replay of any particular strat odds are I have a decent example, just ask.
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Austin10804 Posts
how do you deal with cannons in pz v tz on hunters?
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Because being cannoned by a PZ team when you are TZ is very common, you should always be on the look out for it. On hunters you can have you ally's ol in the middle, which will let you see the probe coming to make the cannons, and you can also use your scout scv to check every few seconds outside your choke. In regular 4 person maps your ally can put his ol at your nat to see the cannons if you don't want to have to check with an scv all the time.
Even if you see the cannons being made it can be difficult to stop. If they manage to close your ally with zealots (on a ramped map, say, or with 5 zealots on hunters) then the enemy lings can stop your marines from killing the cannons before they finish (before you have medics). If your ally 9 pools, it can often be worth losing some lings to run around the opponents forces and sacrifice to prevent the cannons from being made, as at that point the protoss will have sacrificed tech to make the cannons and MM will then gain map control and nullify the opponent's zerglings. Even killing the probe will slow down the cannons a huge amount. If you find yourself in the situation where the protoss is cannoning you by himself while your ally can keep the opponent Z occupied, then you can use your 6-8 marines and 5-10 scvs to micro and kill the zealots and cannons.
If the cannons do finish or you can see that you will have to deal with lings, not just zealots (lings will rape your rine + scv unless its only a few lings) and you choose to let them finish, start a factory right away. Keep up a 2 rax mm pump while getting tanks as soon as possible. It's ok to delay marine range for a little while to get the tank out. Always upgrade the siege mode before making a tank, as it takes longer. Add a third rax and keep up the marine macro. You'll bust out slightly before dt's are made with this normal BO. At that point you can go to the p or the z, depending on the situation. Dt's shouldn't be a huge problem if you made your scanner right after acad finishes, because when you break out you will have 2-3 tanks, 24 mm + a few rines, and just about 4 scans. Also, vs pz, your ally should have an OL at both enemy bases, or outside the chokes. This will often win you the game tz vs pz because it gives you the detection you need when you run out of scans for dts. Of course shit can happen like a goon might kill the OL but if your ally is attentive the ol shouldn't die, especially on hunters when it's so easy to park it over some water near the P choke until you need it later.
During the time the T is doing this the zerg just needs to stay alive. Make a ton of sunkens, intelligently placed, in the mineral line. Depending on what you see, start to tech to spire. This is not that hard when you consider the P is sinking all of his money at this point into getting the tech necessary to stop the inevitable break out army of MM, so there won't be too much pressure. If the P does just go 15 zealots or w/e and kill the Z, then he'll die really easily to the MM tanks.
The other strat is to do 1-2 dropship MM drop on the Z after you are cannoned, but this is not very good on hunters. It can be a viable counter to cannons on 4 person maps though.
And, lastly, of course, if the P only gets like 2 cannons off and the probe dies or something like that you can clearly just break it with MM.
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don't let them cannon you by getting your allies zerglings out before they "contain" him. or depending on how many you can just 4 rax break, or go for the siege tank. o_O
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Basically the best preperation for beating the cannon in is just to have the overlord out to spot it giving you ample time to figure out what you're going to do next. The worst feeling is when your terran ally is about to come out and sees 3 or 4 cannons outside his choke completely fucking up your game plan.
If you run around with your first 6 lings you can sometimes either counter the zerg at his base or you can stay nearish your allies base spotting for any cannon bullshit.
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Terran is hard in 2v2, but there scvs are strong so get your partner and go play on DMZ and worker rush someone ;o (Watch the vid to how to do do, LOL)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0zck_bbVeQ&feature=channel_page
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what sort of builds should the zerg follow up with after a 9 pool? i have a zerg ally who is wondering how many lings are normal in pz vs pz and when to get new hatches and tech to muta, etc.
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I played T/P in 2v2 with a few people quote a bit, and although I don't have the level of play that white-ra and strelok had we could get to C~ pretty easily and didn't have a problem with "meta" TZ and PZ teams. I can give you a terran perspective
Basically against TZ as TP I always liked wraiths. Wraiths are a safe bet against one of the two because usually if the terran goes MM the zerg hatches, so you can get some drones and ovis. The thing with TP is you dont have the mobility of the zerg to keep your opponents from harassing/expanding or double pushing 1 person, but wraiths act similar to a zerg going for early mutalisks, putting one of their opponents in a tough position and forcing the other to move to come help while your ally is free.
Against ZP as a terran you play it similar to how a T plays mech against a Z. in TP vrs ZP theres no way you can be safe protecting your ally on a map like python so he pretty much has to open with a super safe 2 gate -> tech -> forge + cannon -> expo build. Protoss units to an excellent job of taking damage for tank fire, so if you just get in the position of being 2/3 base vrs 2/3 base against ZP you can pull ahead in the macro game, its a matter of not dying early on. This is, atleast ive found, a mix of good micro and experience knowing when to build what against diff opponents.
In TP vrs TP mirror, its a matter of how early you scout the terran. If you find out he is not walling in your protoss can 2gate and constantly pressure while the terran holds the other protoss back with quick mines and vulture micro. If the terran walls in protoss goes straight for tech, and plays it similar to PvT, where you invest in a tech (reaver or dt) and go for some form of harassment. The fact that you have 2 opponents makes the harassment more effective because you have more options, you just 100% cant lose it or you're going to blow up.
Also an important note to add, if at any time a teran goes for M&M vrs you as TP you just turtle up and take expansion, as you cant beat that mobility early on but it is complete garbage vrs both races after you have 4~ factories up.
just noticed after looking at the post that this post is like a month old and some1 bumped it with an unrelated question, oh well gonna post anyway since its already up
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Greetings Ladies and Gentlemen,
It is not necro post. Just a small update ten years later.
TP better to switch T to Z. And play P - 2 gate forge zealots. The main reason to hold ramp Z (enemy) with zealots and lings. Cannon T (probe on 21 goes) entry to hold his BSB build order. T should wait Tank to clear cannons. Meanwhile, Zealots (3gates) and lings (3hatcheries) crush enemy Z, and then expanding over the map. Going first Darks to stop T in the middle, and mass Zealots with Templars. Z should go muta to harass T. Easy WIN. Applicable for Hunters 3x3, Python 2x2
No need to cannon Zerg mate in order to do - 1h muta rush. The main reason of 2x2, 3x3 DO NOT allow to gather enemy forces, split them and win 2vs1. So above method is the most effective way to win.
Thanks
KG.GoodFella
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On October 24 2019 19:55 KG.GoodFella wrote:
It is not necro post. Just a small update ten years later.
ten years later
Welp, time to go throw myself in the old reclamation tank... :p
I am always happy to see that the SC2 2v2 scene is still kicking, even if it isn't what it once was!
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Germany25101 Posts
Locking this, great "update" though
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