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Recently just about every korean Zerg has been going 2-hatch muta vs Terren instead of the old 3-hatch. I think Jaedong's success with it at the end of last season (in MSL and GSL) had really made it popular. I tried searching for the exact BO of it but I can only find threads about variations of it (which seem to be older than the variation used by Jaedong and other top Zs).
As far as I can tell, you go 12 hatch 11 gas 10 pool (or pool then gas if you want to be safer). After this it's a little fuzzy for me, but I know you get lair 1st and then zergling speed and make about 12 lings to harass the T. I always have trouble of when to place my 3rd hatch and whether or not to expand with it. So does anyone know exactly how this BO works? Whenever I try it, usually my mutas are still late and turrets are up, my eco gets trashed after 2 or 3 minutes of harassing because i have a shitload of minerals building up, and i can never really transition well into anything else (is this BO even meant for that?).
I think the only wins I've gotten with 2 hatch muta is with speedlings killing the T's army before mutas are even out lol
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i like the kwanro all in version which is
12hatch
11pool
10gas
speed first then lair, get about 6 lings to stop scouting drone up asap so u have just enough econ(6 lings so terran thinks your going more standard) make more lings once you have droned up until you have about 14-18 and harass as much as possible to get his marine count down and dely any push he may do. Then when spire comes in play the build becomes a all in and you research +1 attack and make 6 mutas and continue muta/ling production and dont expand or drone up at all(you should have just enough resources to continue ling/muta production). i have been pretty sucessful with the build thus far but you really gotta concentrate on your micro, 1 misclick with your mutas and you lost
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Well depending on your scouting information, i like to sometimes go
12 hatch
drone
12 gas
11 pool
After that, you make 4 more drones so when your pool pops you can have 6 lings at your main, and 2 more at your nat. Then you get lair asap and ling speed. Do some harass and in the mean time go constant drone pump.
Now depending on what the terran is doing, you may have to add more ling, or sunx or you can just power drone. If the T lets you power drone, you should be able to get a third hatch up around when the lair is compleating.
When the lair is 50% done add your second gas, and then just pump muta. Now there is a big decision you can do now. You can either go all in mass muta ling to guardian, or you can begin tecking lurkers. If you choose to go all in, getting +1 air attack is a must. However if you chose to go the other rout, plant your hydra den after you have acculmulated some muta, and then transition into lurker ling play.
Really the choice is up to you. This build is very flexible, and i will normally use this build as my standard when playing icup vs terran. The reason i do so, is because this build destroys the fantasy, or any quick teck build the terran can use. Also it can be a good counter to 14cc or 1 rax expo. However i find it more difficult to use against 2rax or any mass rax type of play from terran.
Hope this helped.
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I thought the point of 2 hatch muta is to get the mutas out faster, thus i always skipthe lings speed and go fast lair and get a sunk or two
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On December 01 2008 17:21 Misrah wrote:
Well depending on your scouting information, i like to sometimes go
12 hatch
drone
12 gas
11 pool
I assume this puts you in serious trouble vs. bunker rush and other Terran cheese common on ICCup?
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3rd hatch should always be at another gas expo
the speedlings are optional, although there is some risk of a mmf rush breaking you before mutas are out if you dont get them
guardians are the best followup, lurker transitions generally blow unless your mutas do a ton of damage, in which case hive would win just as well.
dont overdo it early on, if his turrets arent up when you get there knock yourself out, but dont force. it its more important to keep mutas alive. 99% of terrans forget they need to keep adding turrets, once you accumulate 11+ mutas you can just go around laughing as his 4 turrets try to kill a muta before they all die.
if you have minerals building up, take more expos or make more lings. taking more expos is better unless you think hes gonna be able to attack before guardians (most wont, best way to respond is to turtle till you have irad).
it seems obvious but the most important thing is to actually have good muta micro. there are no foreigners who can fight with muta vs mm competently. practice hold position micro and how to dance around a pack of mm (in the open, no cliffs) and pick off strays. if you cant do that, learn how or dont go 2 hat.
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jaja..as a protoss i can tell you now, I will rape your 2 hatch muta build. This can provide for an early tech, but it will severly fuck with your economy. ZvP 2 hatch muta build = FAIL.
I dont think 2 hatch muta vs Terran is a good idea either. It does provide a good fast harrass, but it will fuck your economy. MnM will run over the speedlings, and 2 hatch muta will not stop a T biomech push. I think, the only reason why Jaedong had success using the build is because his muta micro is godly. He (and others) could really fuck a T's economy enough to equalize using the 2 hatch build.
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On December 01 2008 22:20 Metaspace wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2008 17:21 Misrah wrote:
Well depending on your scouting information, i like to sometimes go
12 hatch
drone
12 gas
11 pool
I assume this puts you in serious trouble vs. bunker rush and other Terran cheese common on ICCup?
yes but like i said, scouting is key.
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I just wanted to say that Guardian are very powerful follow-up. Look at sAviOr vs Flash game from GSI. I know that Flash won but:
a) game was so damn intense, I thought that sAviOr will win but Flash somehow managed to break out
b) Flash was best Terran at time while sAviOr was in slump and almost killed him.
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Calgary25963 Posts
There's two popular 2 Hatch variants:
12 Hatch
11 Pool
10 Gas
This is the standard build, it gets a normal-timed Lair and later Zergling speed. Usually you'll be focusing on Drone production instead of being aggressive before Mutas are out with this build.
12 Hatch
11 Gas
10 Pool
The Kwanro Build. Gets a really fast Zergling speed and then goes Lair. Uses a lot of Zerglings early on timed to attack right when Zergling speed finishes.
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On December 01 2008 23:22 Dead wrote:
I just wanted to say that Guardian are very powerful follow-up. Look at sAviOr vs Flash game from GSI. I know that Flash won but:
a) game was so damn intense, I thought that sAviOr will win but Flash somehow managed to break out
b) Flash was best Terran at time while sAviOr was in slump and almost killed him.
Flash was not the best terran at that time. GomTV was his first tournament he won. It was with GomTV he became really good.
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On December 01 2008 23:22 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2008 22:20 Metaspace wrote:On December 01 2008 17:21 Misrah wrote:
Well depending on your scouting information, i like to sometimes go
12 hatch
drone
12 gas
11 pool
I assume this puts you in serious trouble vs. bunker rush and other Terran cheese common on ICCup? yes but like i said, scouting is key.
Slightly off-topic, but how do you scout this?
I mean you go 12 hatch, do not get pool at 11, then you see T pulling 5 scv and starting bunker at your nat. I cannot see how scouting can help here, especially on a map with closer positions (meaning his additional scv will arive fast).
Am I missing something?
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Check out Kwanro's strat.
Sometimes he cancels ling speed
when the spire completes.
Or, he won't cancel.
It's situational stuff.
I like fluid play.
Find a FPVod.
Kwanro on BlueStorm shows this.
Nevake has it.
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What about getting +1 attack for mutas? When is the best time to research it? I think I've read getting it immediately after spire finishes(?).
Do you guys feel it is better to start muta harass right when the 1st 5 or 6 mutas pop out or to wait until you have 7 or 8 (to 1-shot SCVs)?
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On December 01 2008 22:49 IdrA wrote:
3rd hatch should always be at another gas expo
the speedlings are optional, although there is some risk of a mmf rush breaking you before mutas are out if you dont get them
guardians are the best followup, lurker transitions generally blow unless your mutas do a ton of damage, in which case hive would win just as well.
dont overdo it early on, if his turrets arent up when you get there knock yourself out, but dont force. it its more important to keep mutas alive. 99% of terrans forget they need to keep adding turrets, once you accumulate 11+ mutas you can just go around laughing as his 4 turrets try to kill a muta before they all die.
if you have minerals building up, take more expos or make more lings. taking more expos is better unless you think hes gonna be able to attack before guardians (most wont, best way to respond is to turtle till you have irad).
it seems obvious but the most important thing is to actually have good muta micro. there are no foreigners who can fight with muta vs mm competently. practice hold position micro and how to dance around a pack of mm (in the open, no cliffs) and pick off strays. if you cant do that, learn how or dont go 2 hat.
what do you do against 2 hatch muta as terran, I like to do the quicker 2nd rax after i start my EXP, but the god damn speedlings and mutas always seem to rape (from the koreans on iccup, especially when magma did it  )
I understand still making turrets, but i Dunno, i dont have enough up when the mutas initially come.
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On December 02 2008 02:34 Metaspace wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2008 23:22 Misrah wrote:On December 01 2008 22:20 Metaspace wrote:On December 01 2008 17:21 Misrah wrote:
Well depending on your scouting information, i like to sometimes go
12 hatch
drone
12 gas
11 pool
I assume this puts you in serious trouble vs. bunker rush and other Terran cheese common on ICCup? yes but like i said, scouting is key. Slightly off-topic, but how do you scout this? I mean you go 12 hatch, do not get pool at 11, then you see T pulling 5 scv and starting bunker at your nat. I cannot see how scouting can help here, especially on a map with closer positions (meaning his additional scv will arive fast). Am I missing something?
Well scouting at 9 helps lol other than that, with your ovie i will normally drone gas after hatch if i cannot find them at the closest position. Other than that, ya you are taking a bit of a risk.
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This thread is about ZvT, but very brielfy, how is 2-hatch muta versus protoss?
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It's situational.
Will they counter or expand?
What's the follow up?
I think its weak stuff.
Sure, it kills if they don't scout.
I'd rather play safe.
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On December 02 2008 03:30 inlagdsil wrote:
This thread is about ZvT, but very brielfy, how is 2-hatch muta versus protoss?
Why on hell would you 2 hatch vs toss? That is an invitation to get your ass kicked. If the toss goes bisu build (which he will prolly do) a speedling runby is near impossible. And if he scouts your 2 hatch build, and goes temps/ sairs, your mutas are fucked. The 12 hatch opening is much more safe, and economically friendly for zerg. And though i hate to say this, opening to hydra is a better idea vs toss. For toss, do what all zerg do. 12 hatch, get both gas, get 3-4 hatch, 4hatch hydra and proceed to get the hydra fucked by a fuckton of storms :D
Well.. mutas = FAIL vs toss..
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The only reason you 2 hatch vs protoss is because your offracing or your playing a nooby protoss
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On December 02 2008 04:52 Racenilatr wrote:
The only reason you 2 hatch vs protoss is because your offracing or your playing a nooby protoss
Not always, though it usually is a pretty bad idea. If it is scouted, then you lose. If he opens corsairs, and you don't have good scourge control, you can lose. If he opens templar, you can lose.
Usually, two hatch mutas works best versus terran, and you still need to have good micro at that.
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On December 02 2008 04:54 Archaic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 04:52 Racenilatr wrote:
The only reason you 2 hatch vs protoss is because your offracing or your playing a nooby protoss Not always, though it usually is a pretty bad idea. If it is scouted, then you lose. If he opens corsairs, and you don't have good scourge control, you can lose. If he opens templar, you can lose. Usually, two hatch mutas works best versus terran, and you still need to have good micro at that.
Agreed. I think the 3 hatch opening is the safest and the best chance to win no matter what MU. The risk that comes along with a 2 hatch build is huge, and for the newer/noobier zerg player, a 3 hatch opening to hydra/muta ling would be much safer
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On December 02 2008 03:03 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2008 22:49 IdrA wrote:
3rd hatch should always be at another gas expo
the speedlings are optional, although there is some risk of a mmf rush breaking you before mutas are out if you dont get them
guardians are the best followup, lurker transitions generally blow unless your mutas do a ton of damage, in which case hive would win just as well.
dont overdo it early on, if his turrets arent up when you get there knock yourself out, but dont force. it its more important to keep mutas alive. 99% of terrans forget they need to keep adding turrets, once you accumulate 11+ mutas you can just go around laughing as his 4 turrets try to kill a muta before they all die.
if you have minerals building up, take more expos or make more lings. taking more expos is better unless you think hes gonna be able to attack before guardians (most wont, best way to respond is to turtle till you have irad).
it seems obvious but the most important thing is to actually have good muta micro. there are no foreigners who can fight with muta vs mm competently. practice hold position micro and how to dance around a pack of mm (in the open, no cliffs) and pick off strays. if you cant do that, learn how or dont go 2 hat. what do you do against 2 hatch muta as terran, I like to do the quicker 2nd rax after i start my EXP, but the god damn speedlings and mutas always seem to rape (from the koreans on iccup, especially when magma did it ) I understand still making turrets, but i Dunno, i dont have enough up when the mutas initially come. if he makes more than 2 lings get a bunker at your natural, and keep scouting. if he keeps making lings or you see speed before his mutas are out hes 99% gonna attack so have have some scvs blocking.
generally you have to cut an scv or 2 (never stop marine production) in order to get up turrets to stop the first wave, generally youll want 2-3 at each minline and 1-2 above your ramp (and by your barracks, assuming theyre in that same general area). your marine range shouldnt be done at that point, so just keep your mm in among the turrets hes nearest. once you have marine range you just try to mirror him, when he trys to engage your mm stim, pull back a bit, and then charge forward and focus on a single muta. you also want to make sure hes coming in perpendicular to your marines, ie your marines are in a line with the mutas coming in like this l<-, so all your rines fire at once.
other than that, just make sure you keep adding turrets to your min lines and try to get to vessels as fast as possible, if you know you arent gonna have 2(preferably more) vessels with irad by the time his guards are out go 3 port wraith instead.
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oh nice post 
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yay. but idra, is getting a vessel out the only way to stop the muta harass completely? sometimes the zerg will just keep reinforcing the mutas while massing up a lurk army. des that really mean i need a vessel with irrad on the mutas before i can push?
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how he does he keep reinforcing the mutas while massing a lurk army?
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As a zerg who likes going 2hatch muta a lot, I can say that if I haven't crippled their economy or killed enough marines to run lings in, my harass is basically over when their science vessel irradiates me (unless I'm able to quickly grab the irradiated muta), not to mention if I don't have lurkers or guardians in good numbers by this time they can move out and hit my expos or nat or something. My economy is going to be weak, won't be able to afford mass defense. If I don't kill them with muta/ling the game usually ends for me, since I often have too few lurkers done by the time they move out. I'm 1-1 with guardians, but the win was more terran's fault for sitting and not attacking me than my fault.
edit: Ilikestarcraft, you usually have a few more mutas at your rally than your normal 11 even after you stop muta production and just grab one everytime you lose a muta.
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On December 02 2008 13:57 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
how he does he keep reinforcing the mutas while massing a lurk army?
it cud be a gradual process, like recycling weak mutas with fresh ones you know? while making some hydras and lurks on the way.
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wtf? he must be on 3 bases to get to lurks.. plus he cant mass that much because he has devoted to mutas getting upgrades and drone count is very low. A terran always knows when Z goes 2 hatch mutas bec of non stop muta harass + the time the mutas comes out and not to mention scaning Z's base once in a while.
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As long as you can pump drones you can get a third hatch at an expo before your spire finishes. He can't stop it theoretically because of the threat of mutas.
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On December 02 2008 13:48 ramen247 wrote:
yay. but idra, is getting a vessel out the only way to stop the muta harass completely? sometimes the zerg will just keep reinforcing the mutas while massing up a lurk army. des that really mean i need a vessel with irrad on the mutas before i can push?
if they dont fuck up, yes.
no good zergs gonna produce lurk and muta simultaneously though, you wont have enough of either of them to stop any kind of mm attack. (unless of course terran got damaged early in which case it doesnt really matter either way).
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I tend to 2 hatch muta, gas after pool, 2 lings and sunks if he tries to move out, then straight muta/overlord until like 60ish supply while getting lurk tech and a third and fourth base. 8 lurks and your mutas can take almost any amount of m/m that he can save up, as long as he doesn't have really, really good sci control. Scourging the first sci vessel is crucial, otherwise irradiate harass is going to stop your mutas cold. After 2 evo chambers start melee and carapace, hive to ultra/defiler/crackling is nice, and so is hydra/guardian, although I tend to prefer ultraling over anything else because I usually end up losing too many defilers to irradiate. 3-3, get swarm, win game.
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On December 02 2008 15:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 13:48 ramen247 wrote:
yay. but idra, is getting a vessel out the only way to stop the muta harass completely? sometimes the zerg will just keep reinforcing the mutas while massing up a lurk army. des that really mean i need a vessel with irrad on the mutas before i can push? if they dont fuck up, yes. no good zergs gonna produce lurk and muta simultaneously though, you wont have enough of either of them to stop any kind of mm attack. (unless of course terran got damaged early in which case it doesnt really matter either way).
=( ---> =/ gay. ty anyway.
so i need to get a faster fact now...
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Read this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=83216
Although slightly off topic and not really containing any relevant BO information about the 2 hatch build, it gives some depth into why the 2 hatch came back into style (especially Plexa's post on page 2). But don't let it discourage you from learning the 2 hatch - it's a very powerful build and should be added to any zerg's arsenal. And good muta micro will bail you out of losses and allow you to come back more than one time.
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2hatch muta is power strategy!!
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On December 03 2008 13:00 ramen247 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 15:41 IdrA wrote:On December 02 2008 13:48 ramen247 wrote:
yay. but idra, is getting a vessel out the only way to stop the muta harass completely? sometimes the zerg will just keep reinforcing the mutas while massing up a lurk army. des that really mean i need a vessel with irrad on the mutas before i can push? if they dont fuck up, yes. no good zergs gonna produce lurk and muta simultaneously though, you wont have enough of either of them to stop any kind of mm attack. (unless of course terran got damaged early in which case it doesnt really matter either way). =( ---> =/ gay. ty anyway. so i need to get a faster fact now...
Don't be too quick though... Remember, cutting defences for tech might just as well screw you up even worse. Walking the edge, without falling down, is the preferred position of the defender.
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Braavos36372 Posts
ultimately you will need irradiate, all the turrets and mm movements and all that crap against muta harass is just a delay to get vessels. if the zerg is good you will not be able to kill the muta ball or move out while defending with mm or turrets, it just won't happen. you need vessel to kill/defend the ball and move out.
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Speaking of 2-hatch muta, someone posted a really good 2-hatch muta opening game on repdepot today:
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=6743
This isn't a close game, but it showcases the power of 2-hatch muta.
EDIT: this is version 1.15.3 btw
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2 hatch muta works vs. toss when it isn't scouted. That means you can't go 12 hatch because his scout will easily see your lair timing. You want to go 12 pool and gas before expo, and still you will have to hurry and kill his scout so he doesn't see the lair. This will still be suspicious if he knows you haven't gotten ling speed, so 2 hatch is often a good follow up for a speedling build.
Of course there are times when he scouts you last or something and 12 pool will have lings out before he gets into your base, but that's literally never going to happen if you 12 hatch.
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On December 10 2008 17:25 LxRogue wrote:
2 hatch muta works vs. toss when it isn't scouted. That means you can't go 12 hatch because his scout will easily see your lair timing. You want to go 12 pool and gas before expo, and still you will have to hurry and kill his scout so he doesn't see the lair. This will still be suspicious if he knows you haven't gotten ling speed, so 2 hatch is often a good follow up for a speedling build.
Of course there are times when he scouts you last or something and 12 pool will have lings out before he gets into your base, but that's literally never going to happen if you 12 hatch.
But uhh... the discussion is ZvT.
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For anybody trying two hat muta Sea[shield] told me on peaks/bluestorm to go 9pool-speed into 2 hat muta. It was threw a translator but the idea was something like 'hungry zerg , win now' 'savior/jaedong many drone win any'
He was telling me that I should play macro style, but that if I'm going aggressive, to really really go for it. If anybody would like the 9pool or overpool into 2 hat muta transition I've been using lemme know.
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EPT
