I made a bunch of videos about stopping 4 and 5 pools on BB with every race. So if it works here, it'll work (or a variation of it will work on a larger map).
I've had these videos sitting on my HD for almost a year now. Just now adding captions and uploading to youtube:
I tested each BO v BO 2 or 3 times (not counting the 1000s of other game's experiences) PvZ 5pool vs 9gate:
I never actually finished testing/making all the BOs v BOs (even though I'm sure what works already): 5pool vs 8rax (obvious though) 5pool vs 9rax 4pool vs 9pool 4-5pool vs Forge builds. 4pool vs 9gate 5pool vs 10gate overpool vs 4pool overpool vs 5pool
If anyone wants to test with me give me a PM or whatever. Does 1.16 work for hamachi?
I used shitty music in these videos because its funny to me. I am aware my micro and decision making is sub par for some of these but that just puts an emphasis on the fact that these defenses work.
PS- I have some blooper videos if you guys wanna see those too. Failed 9raxes (failed 4pool vs 9rax, lol) and failed 10gate.
Builds that don't work 95% of the time are: 9rax vs 4pool, 10/12 2gate vs 4pool 10/12 2gate vs 5pool 10pool vs 4pool 10pool vs 5pool
Thanks to Smaq aka NightToad for being my Zerg guinea pig please don't flame him.
The problem is not 4pool or 5pool, the problem is 9 pool into up'ed hydras from 2 hatches. If you mass zealots, he'll micro you to death. If you gas and core, your tech won't kick in before he rushes and all you have is a few zlots and a silly goon or two. Only chance is to rush w/ mass zlots before hydras are speed up'ed, but he has that ovie in your base and can just add a few sunks X_X
In PvZ 4pool vs 10gate, the lings should have went for the gateway. That way the gateway has a chance to go down and the toss is left with maybe a zealot. It also forces the toss to pull probes then you just run away from, this is better because it will make the toss lose more minerals then the other method.
It takes about 14 seconds to kill a gateway with 6 lings. I counted with the video. If he were to go for the gateway, He would have taken it down before the zealot came out.
On November 27 2008 20:25 ShloobeR wrote: in your zvz one, your opponent starting build a colony in range of yours, which is obviously going to be stopped with your build.
usually the opponent will build a colony somewhere it can hit pool/hatch but is not in range of your own.
seeing as you only stopped his sunk because you had yours out I dunno how useful this really is.
Yea, that was a pretty big mistake on his part but I think I still win because I got free hits with drones and some of his lings died, I would have maybe lost a few more lings or drones to it. That's all. My sunken hits his 4 times.
On November 27 2008 20:19 eX-Corgh wrote: lol why make 8 rax vs 5 pool? Its pretty obvious. What about standard rax timing @ 11?
With the 8 rax build you can be offensive early game in tvz. it allows you do a bunker rush if they 12hatch, helps defend from a 9 pool and 5 pool because of earlier marines. So even if you haven't scouted them yet 8 rax can be very viable.
Don't think you couldn't still lose from 8 rax aganist 5 pool.
With standard rax timing you just get a later marine and later bunker and those seconds REALLY matter. It will be just based on micro before and after the marine pops out (stacking the scvs then hitting stop and surrounding the marines with the scvs then pushing the lings untill you get a bunker up)
Charlie is just trying to show how the best way to defend and the BO comes first.
On November 27 2008 20:56 Biff The Understudy wrote: The terran one is retarded: everybody can stop a 4 pool with 8 rax. The problem is: you don't know that 4 pool is coming and you go 11 rax.
And you die.
On bb I always open with 9rax/10depot vs zerg or random sometimes even vs protoss. Its perfectly viable and will stop a 5pool (i'm pretty sure) but 8rax is guaranteed to stop the 4pool. If they don't rush when I 9 rax I just make 1 marine and a 2nd barracks/depot sooner.
It's pretty hard to fit all the 'what ifs' into the video, it would just be an endless stream of tangents (sorta like a combat-X vid, but actually correct). Basically all these builds are pretty safe to open with vs anything. That was the point of all the videos.
I want to test, but these BOs seem pretty nonstandard. :/
Can we practice on a map that is reasonable?
Like 4-5 pool against forge FE for python or Othello?
I want to add that I've seen a really effective strategy PvZ-wise for forge FE if you scout 4-5pool 2nd or 3rd. Just add a pylon to your main and once it warps in, put 1 cannon in the center of your min line. Protection from like anything less than 20 lings with some micro. Then you got 14 probes against like 6, 1base vs 1base PvZ.
On November 28 2008 03:00 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: I want to test, but these BOs seem pretty nonstandard. :/
Can we practice on a map that is reasonable?
Like 4-5 pool against forge FE for python or Othello?
I want to add that I've seen a really effective strategy PvZ-wise for forge FE if you scout 4-5pool 2nd or 3rd. Just add a pylon to your main and once it warps in, put 1 cannon in the center of your min line. Protection from like anything less than 20 lings with some micro. Then you got 14 probes against like 6, 1base vs 1base PvZ.
err yea.. that's like the only way to stop a 5 pool if you go forge FE....
The sangho vs roro game on medusa was a great example of how to react to a 5 pool when you've opened with a forge expand and you know you cant warp cannons at the nat in time.
Only reason people saw FEs die vs 5 pool is because people started to time for 9 pools. They only put the forge up just in time for the 9 pool and not immediately after not scouting the opponent on try one.
But I think 4 pools on close positions need probe blocks.
PvZ: Going for 9or10 gateway against 4or5 pool doesnt work, if zerg plays properly and has good micro. As someone mentioned, the zerg simply has to go for the gateways. If Protoss pulls off enough probes, back up for the time. Maybe even try to snipe some. Only way to survive 4/5 pool on blood bath (against a good zerg) is forge -> 1cannon -> gateway
On November 27 2008 20:19 eX-Corgh wrote: lol why make 8 rax vs 5 pool? Its pretty obvious. What about standard rax timing @ 11?
With the 8 rax build you can be offensive early game in tvz. it allows you do a bunker rush if they 12hatch, helps defend from a 9 pool and 5 pool because of earlier marines. So even if you haven't scouted them yet 8 rax can be very viable.
Don't think you couldn't still lose from 8 rax aganist 5 pool.
With standard rax timing you just get a later marine and later bunker and those seconds REALLY matter. It will be just based on micro before and after the marine pops out (stacking the scvs then hitting stop and surrounding the marines with the scvs then pushing the lings untill you get a bunker up)
Charlie is just trying to show how the best way to defend and the BO comes first.
9 pool is easily stopped by normal 11 rax with SCV ramp block. Should I just 8 rax every game because can make 5 pool? I would be slowed down by a LOT if he 12 hatches (what Zs do 90% of time in ZvT).
And who the hell plays BB??? Basically, the OP is giving videos of hard counters for 5 pool, but you must be 100% sure the zerg will 5 pool, or you'd fall behind.
Also, whoever fails with 8 rax vs 5 pool deserves to die ^^
Yeah, it's really quite dumb to make videos of Blood Bath, why would anyone play that anyway >_> Oh btw, 11rax can beat 4pool, but 11 13rax can't kill it really... it's kind of strange.
This isn't just about the map Blood Bath. It's about defending against 4/5 pool on small maps in general, where rushs can hurt a lot.
CharlieMurphy's work on this topic should really be appreciated, as his tips are extremly useful for players who keep losing against cheap zergs because they just don't know how to deal with it and still moderately useful for more experienced players.
On November 28 2008 03:00 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: I want to test, but these BOs seem pretty nonstandard. :/
Can we practice on a map that is reasonable?
Like 4-5 pool against forge FE for python or Othello?
I want to add that I've seen a really effective strategy PvZ-wise for forge FE if you scout 4-5pool 2nd or 3rd. Just add a pylon to your main and once it warps in, put 1 cannon in the center of your min line. Protection from like anything less than 20 lings with some micro. Then you got 14 probes against like 6, 1base vs 1base PvZ.
It's gonna be about 7 drones =P And the thing is, even if you do that, your tech will be really slow and they'll just mass drones and double expand and you'll be behind. 5pool is really lame sometimes
I don't know why the Zerg didn't target your gateway/probes more instead of the pylon. He sees two pylon but still decides to try and destroy one of them what the fuck? He'd be better off if he picks off some probes/harasses the gateway instead of killing one of the two pylons powering the gateway.
2 gate > sheild battery. See how worthless that battery was in the grand scheme of things? Your toss probe vs ling micro not too good and the execution of the builds slowed your timings. 10/12 is perfectly safe vs 4 and 5 pool.
On November 28 2008 03:00 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: I want to test, but these BOs seem pretty nonstandard. :/
Can we practice on a map that is reasonable?
Like 4-5 pool against forge FE for python or Othello?
I want to add that I've seen a really effective strategy PvZ-wise for forge FE if you scout 4-5pool 2nd or 3rd. Just add a pylon to your main and once it warps in, put 1 cannon in the center of your min line. Protection from like anything less than 20 lings with some micro. Then you got 14 probes against like 6, 1base vs 1base PvZ.
Eh even with a bad scout you should see the completed pool before lings are fucking your shit. If you make your forge on 10, cannon asap and add a gate to make your block solid then pulling probes to new block with a cannon warping in should buy you enough time to secure your second natural position on the map. Making a cannon in your main is good and all but if you let your forge and pylon die that should be in your natural you lose so much for no real reason. Z is free to pump drones and expand while your gateway warps in and you try to play a slow 1 base strategy. Sure you dont die, but surviving a 4/5 pool should just be gg pretty much.
On November 28 2008 18:12 thedeadhaji wrote: The sangho vs roro game on medusa was a great example of how to react to a 5 pool when you've opened with a forge expand and you know you cant warp cannons at the nat in time.
Yes, but the thing to notice is that his scouting played a big part in his survival. You can see him only scouting for overlords, if he had fulfilled his scouting to the wrong position he would have been in a lot worse situation.
The pylon in main is the standard follow up especially on medusa since it's pretty far between main and exp there.
But there is no hard BO counter (at least not between the most common builds), the better player usually wins as in: there is a big difference between an A level player's 4 pool and B level player etcetera. Obviously there are exceptions but still... Knowing the timings for different map is a lot more useful than knowing the timings from a minimal distance map like BB.
On November 29 2008 04:18 MiniRoman wrote: 2 gate > sheild battery. See how worthless that battery was in the grand scheme of things? Your toss probe vs ling micro not too good and the execution of the builds slowed your timings. 10/12 is perfectly safe vs 4 and 5 pool.
Very wrong. You're probes wont be mining long enough to make zealots from 2 gates as you will be constantly defending from the lings. Gate/Shield is far better, especially if you make use of the shield battery, which I don't know if he did or not.
On November 28 2008 23:59 Empyrean wrote: I don't know why the Zerg didn't target your gateway/probes more instead of the pylon. He sees two pylon but still decides to try and destroy one of them what the fuck? He'd be better off if he picks off some probes/harasses the gateway instead of killing one of the two pylons powering the gateway.
Also your splits weren't that great
Haha, you're still probably better than I am
Reason why is because I have to press F8 to start recording, Ctrl+Alt+Insert to start winamp song, and then split. Try it lol
On November 27 2008 20:56 Biff The Understudy wrote: The terran one is retarded: everybody can stop a 4 pool with 8 rax. The problem is: you don't know that 4 pool is coming and you go 11 rax.
And you die.
On bb I always open with 9rax/10depot vs zerg or random sometimes even vs protoss. Its perfectly viable and will stop a 5pool (i'm pretty sure) but 8rax is guaranteed to stop the 4pool. If they don't rush when I 9 rax I just make 1 marine and a 2nd barracks/depot sooner.
It's pretty hard to fit all the 'what ifs' into the video, it would just be an endless stream of tangents (sorta like a combat-X vid, but actually correct). Basically all these builds are pretty safe to open with vs anything. That was the point of all the videos.
btw, I've never opened 11rax on BB.
As everybody or almost opens 11 rax vs zerg, there must be a way of fighting efficiently 4 pool with workers while rax/bunker is on the way.
If not, every zerg in the world and especially in pro gaming would open 4 pool, which I almost never see in ZvT.
I made a bunch of videos about stopping 4 and 5 pools on BB with every race. So if it works here, it'll work (or a variation of it will work on a larger map).
On November 30 2008 06:16 CharlieMurphy wrote: I have a bunch of other stupid song videos in my profile showing 3-10 minute early-mid games with these same openers vs pubs.
Nice vids if you are actually playing BB but I was expecting the standard PvZ forge FE, TvZ 11rax, and 9/overpool ZvZ on regular 3-4 player medium sized maps. Still better than nothing though.
On November 30 2008 06:16 CharlieMurphy wrote: I have a bunch of other stupid song videos in my profile showing 3-10 minute early-mid games with these same openers vs pubs.
I made about 22 of these BB public noob rape videos playing random. So there are quite a diverse set of opening builds and stuff in there. Mostly though, 9pool speed/burrowling to 3 hatch lings. 10/12 gate zeal harass /canoning. 8/9/11 rax MnM timing attack or Wall to Mech.
NICE WORK CHARLIE, maybe its map dependant but its a nice add to the strategy section, because it covers the basics points. People that want a variation for other maps or BOs should work at least a little, fucking crying lazy bastards. Nice music for BW.
from 1 rax fe bunker as soon as you see lings come in, scv + marine micro do not block ramp or do anything silly like that your objective is to lose the least number of scvs possible and clumping them all up right in his face isn't going to help. if you have slow reflexes, you can send out a second scv scout at the proper timing to have a little bit more reaction time (you see lings enter your nat). If you don't see any lings at the 4/5pool timing, just send this "scout" back to mine.
After defending, take gas and acad. Play standard 1rax acad vs 1base tech Z.
Building placement is of the utmost importance, you just have to practice it. Get someone to 4/5pool against you every game and figure out good spots for supply rax, bunker, 2nd supply, acad, etc. Make sure your building placement is still fine if your opponent plays standard.
On December 01 2008 03:22 Phrujbaz wrote: Terran vs 4/5 pool on python:
from 1 rax fe bunker as soon as you see lings come in, scv + marine micro do not block ramp or do anything silly like that your objective is to lose the least number of scvs possible and clumping them all up right in his face isn't going to help. if you have slow reflexes, you can send out a second scv scout at the proper timing to have a little bit more reaction time (you see lings enter your nat). If you don't see any lings at the 4/5pool timing, just send this "scout" back to mine.
After defending, take gas and acad. Play standard 1rax acad vs 1base tech Z.
Building placement is of the utmost importance, you just have to practice it. Get someone to 4/5pool against you every game and figure out good spots for supply rax, bunker, 2nd supply, acad, etc. Make sure your building placement is still fine if your opponent plays standard.
(when i play Terran)I usually get a early rack (early enough to counter a 4 pool) then get factories so i've never had problems with a 4 pool before from what i can remember.
On November 27 2008 19:54 TJcan wrote: The problem is not 4pool or 5pool, the problem is 9 pool into up'ed hydras from 2 hatches. If you mass zealots, he'll micro you to death. If you gas and core, your tech won't kick in before he rushes and all you have is a few zlots and a silly goon or two. Only chance is to rush w/ mass zlots before hydras are speed up'ed, but he has that ovie in your base and can just add a few sunks X_X
the only thing you can do is make cannons and tech to reaver lol
EPT
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