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Here`s the rep
I ve seen Jaedong vs Shuttle game 2 recently , this buid is somewhat my copy of this. I did 9 ol pool tho and my Lair later and this isn`t bluestorm.
I contained him for a while ( i didn`t plan it rly .. ) but he walked out with 1st obs and my army just melted. I struggled for a while and died.
My thoughts :
1. Scourge , I forgot them .
2. My build was a little bit late for some reason.
3. Mb whole that build was bad ? He didn`t go 4 gate +1 , he made stargate so mb I could go 5 hatch hydra ---> mutas bo ?
I don`t know if corsair delays + 1 push enough tho .. correct + 1 without cors comes at 7:00 (9 zeala. How is that with cors addition ?
4. Contain - bad idea ? Mb instant drop with that lurkers would be better but I m not sure.
A few questions :
I : Is spire build better than what I did there ? Why ?
II: Is there any better build that I don`t know ?
III: Why do I get owned by people who get 1-2 k all the time ?
IV: Do I S. U .C .K so much that the fact I never reach 1 K doesn`t count ? Even when I have way better mechanics than opponent I still N.O.O.B S.U.C.K and can`t win ?
Its so fucking furstrating, I keep getting owned by such players : / Is it my race , Is it that I just SUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKK too much or what .......
I play a lot lately , I watch many repalys / vods , I watch my own reps and still players like him just walk over me : / Pathetic : /
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Hmm ...
Granted, this is a small detail, but every bit helps. Spawn your drones closer to your hatchery (manually select the larva that you'll use).
You got 9pool (or something like it), for what? You didn't put any pressure on him, his cannons defended nicely. If you wanted to 9pool, put some drones on your gas and get zergling speed and run into his main with a control group of lings, since he opened with only 2 cannons. The reason why he did so was because he didn't see you getting zergling speed when his scouting probe came in, so he knew that he could afford to skimp on cannons. Therefore if you powered lings, he would have been forced to spend more money on cannons and defending against a possible ling run-by.
If you're not getting zergling speed, 12hatch would've been a better build for your economy.
The positioning of the first hatchery ... why not place it next to your nat minerals? It was further away from your minerals, making it ... not much of an expansion. Only later did you place your proper expo hatch.
You didn't saturate your minerals with drones ... I'm not a zerg player, but shouldn't there be a drone transfer when your nat expo finishes?
He FE'd, which means he won't have many zealots until his push, so just keep your lings outside his base and deny his harassing zealots and MACRO like a beast. Generally after his scouting probe the only unit that gets out of the protoss nat alive is the sair, and that brings me to the next point.
Nice contain with the lurkers. But why so many hydras? You overreact to his sairs ... which ... he built a total of 2. You should've sent a scouting overlord to his base sometime during the midgame to check up on what he's doing, or at least realized that because he wasn't harrassing you constantly with sairs, he must be powering hard on ground units. Then accordingly, you should get more lurkers and MAKE LINGS, upgrade attack, caraspace (which you did but not in time to fight off his +1 ground push).
I saw that you brought a ton of overlords with you. Afraid of the DTs? No, you saw HTs, which means he's going to psi storm your hydras to kingdom come. When he moved out with just zealots and templar against your hydras, you could have kept a few hydras on the side and sniped his HTs as he ran back into his base. Trading a hydra or two for a templar isn't too bad.
As he attacked ... your sunkens and spores came too late. If you knew he was going to push out within the next 30 seconds, you should've made them immediately.
I think there were 2 things you had to watch.
1. Get LINGS AND LURKERS. Lings ... these little buddies are a zerg's best friends. 2 from one egg? YES PLZ. They rape ground and serve as excellent scouts and early-game "contain". Why not use hydras? 80 health, 10 damage, vs. 160 health zealots, 16 damage (correct me if I'm slightly wrong), but it's obvious that hydras will get eaten up by zealots, especially if they're backed up by storm.
Lurkers would have ripped apart the protoss army, if you had enough (i.e. don't build so many hydras when he's not building corsairs).
2. In response to FE protoss, you should have powered your drones harder from your many expos and built up a MUCH larger army. He had so many gates pumping that it made your many hatcheries look lazy in comparison. If you look closely, he doesn't get his gates until his econ advantage kicks in. You could have forced a hydra break to kill his natural, or macroed harder yourself to match his many gates.
As for the spire build ... here's a guide that should help.
If you wanted to have some fun ... double lair with a drop into his main right before his push would've been nice 
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BWchart says that with all of your expansions, he had more resources mined than you. Why? He build way more probes ... over a hundred? And that's only off of his main and his natural ... so unless you're going for some kind of rush build, don't skimp on drones.
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Im D(-) zerg, but I've had plenty of training on theorycrafting, so here is my veiw on what you did wrong:
You know when people say that macro is more than just keeping the gas and minerals low? More than having no idle larvae? And then they have troubles defining exactly what exactly those extra part are. I think this is a perfect example of that extra part.
I think you problem was that you always had just barely not enough units to attack him, while having more than enough to defend. Meaning that you could have exchanged part of your army for drones, and you would still not be able to attack, but still able to defend. You want either (1)enough units to damage him (apparantly good) , or (2) BARELY enough to defend (to maximise drone count). Barely not enough units to attack will bring you to end game, but with a too low drone count, so you will still lose.
When I read 4 hatch hydra I think of a cannon breaker build... I think you should either stop drones completely, get both hydra uppgrades and break his cannon line, OR keep hydra count to minimum and mass more drones.
While that was you biggest conceptual error (still imo...) I still got some tips (remember, im still D...):
1) you dont want to be so hydra heavy when he gets storm. switch to lurk ling or something. You will need a spire for scourges eventually, but you dont have to go mutas if you dont want.
2) Why the mineral only? You had map control until the 6 oclock base was down, so you could have taken your third gas at once. That third gas is so important for zergs... Put down a sunken to defend from lots early on if you need to. it is in general better than lings, since sunkens only require 1 larvae, and defend better than 2 lings, leaving more larvae for drones.
3) Dont use "S.U.C.K" and variations so much. It makes you look like 14. 
4) watch chills FPvods with commentary on the 5 hatch drone build in ZvP. It may interest you. You can find them in chills blog i think, or download them from this FPVod package that I uploaded some while ago. There you will also find NonYs brilliant insights on protoss.  The torrents seems to be realy slow though, since its so old.
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I haven't watched the rep (No BW on this comp), but it sounds like your main problem was eco. With Zerg, drone saturation is usually around 1.5x the number of mineral patches. More is always better, but usually at that point, it's more effective to spend the larva on combat units. Once you have that number, you should be getting a good income flow. If it's still not enough for you to keep up with your opponent, then it most likely means you need to expand one more time.
Xstatic and Cascade both had very good points. BTW, Xstatic, with Z, maynarding drones actually isn't completely necessary, especially at the start when you have very few to begin with. Most players don't maynard more than 2-4, if any at all. (:
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PH is dead-on, your expos should've been cash cows for you, and your army was paltry in comparison to ... say, the average zerg army, not to mention the protoss's. If you're not going to take advantage of your expos, just build the hatches in your main, makes them easier to defend. Standard 3-hatch play involves the 3rd hatch being built at the top of the ramp (correct me if I'm wrong).
Lurkers absolutely eat zealots with splash damage. After seeing that he had so many zealots with his army, you should have countered with more lurkers.
No maynarding drones? I guess it's due to the early expansion -__- but still, if he's FE-ing, he has nothing to really harass you with, so pump drones like it's your job as a zerg before really trying to mass an army. Your timing was nice, countered his well. You mention that you have good game mechanics, keeping your mineral count low, but looking at your bases, you didn't really have the minerals to begin with. Gas saturation was good, spend it on lurkers and tech next time. If you're worried about sairs sniping your overlords, keep your overlords with your hydras.
Getting a spire would have allowed you to get mutalisks and force a cannon or two at his main to prevent probe sniping, and also would have allowed you to snipe his observer as he attacked, buying you time as you tech to hive and rape him with plague/swarm + cracklings
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Okay let's start from the beginning.
Why you started 9pool? You made those lings, weakened your economy but you never use them to harass or push your opponent. Definitely not necessary - MISTAKE NO.1
Then you went pretty good - second expo, pretty good economy, totally no harass from the opponent. You already had 2 expos but only 4 hatches. This is way too few. When you go with hydras build (let's say you have a decent amount of drones) you pump hydras from 4 hatches having only 1 exp (main + natural) and each expo should give additional 2 hatches (early-mid game) for hydra massing. You got nice amount of army till some point when you stopped massing cause your 3rd expo was build and you spawn lots of drones. So next mistake too many expos - not enough hatches for pumping army and you couldn't keep the pace of spawning hydras and even though you had little advantage over your opponent, there was a point when he actually massed you out. Micro/Macro also was good so the only reason the only reason you lost was a bad timing economy-wise.
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On August 07 2008 08:54 PH wrote:
Most players don't maynard more than 2-4, if any at all. (:
When I played zerg it worked out perfectly usually when i would transfer 3-5, usually 4 when i 12hatch FE.
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JinKazama23, his problem was eco and unit makeup, not hatcheries, unless just to build them just to extend the beautiful creep. He had plenty of idle larva and good micro, but his opponent was far ahead in macro, even off of 2 bases because it's not how many expos you get, but how many mineral patches that you're using to the fullest extent.
The opening was decent, not using them to harass isn't an instant-loss, seeing as how the opponent was playing quite lazily. The Z had plenty of time to macro an army of drones to mine out those minerals and pull himself back into the game. Not doing so, coupled with too much investment in hydras, which storm easily kills, made this game one-sided. Go lurkerling vs. his pure ground army, with scourge to snipe his observers or take out sairs.
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QUOTE]On August 07 2008 02:51 Zerg_Sasuke I play a lot lately , I watch many repalys / vods , I watch my own reps and still players like him just walk over me : / Pathetic : /
[/QUOTE]
Warning OP this post took time to write, Please take the time to read/think your way through ALL of it. I get the impression that you would actually like to get better , with you being an avid BW follower.
I disagree with almost every single comment on your play. Sorry guys I think you are failing to understand the actual reasons he lost...
I'll start from the begining
9pool is awesome for a macro build or aggression.
BUT without speed not so much... Why?...
Because you probably won't be fast enough to deny scout probes without it .... unless you are going 3 hat hydra BREAK build 9pool isn't 4 hat macro build when protoss can scout you isn't going to help you out vs a +1 /templar build. Infact once you set your second hat in the wrong spot you were miles behind anyway....
My ZvP build for pool first is Extractor trick 10/9 overlord, Pool , gas , pull drones at 100 gas,
if you have scouted him doing any kind of 1 base strategy you kill the scouting probe, and go 3 hat (only 1 expo) Hydra/lair(speedOL) build because you will be able to safely defeat nearly all 1 base strategys (see Entourage vs White-Ra in the TSL pro gamer replay packs, with nonkoreans vs pro gamers).
If you scout 2 gate, Speedling right away proceed 3 hat ling, low drone build until you A)overwhelm him or B) he will change the game into a 2 gate tech or expo, in which time you power 4-10 drones (depending on how well you handled his zealots) either take a second expo before he does expands or if he techs you can go 4 hat (decent drones) hydra/lairspeed and outmass him badly for an easy win.
Now if you scout FE, you should go speed so that you can deny EVERY SCOUTING attempt before cosair,( overlords by his gate will let you know if he's pumping lots/ Upgrading +1 early so those first 3 zealots won't shock you and you simply can make 6-8 more lings and keep him contained), and since he can't scout you and you can not only see his main with 1 overlord and his natural or part of it with your second overlord , you will know if he is adding gates before stargate, before core, after core and how many gates. If he builds a dragon to kill your overlord he is most likely going Sair, and hard sair (meaning 4+ sairs) don't ask me why , they do this all the way up to B on iccup ( I'm not always sure why ^.^).
Vs a fast sair you can go 4 hat ( 2 expo den+spire with lair started after third hat, not right away around but around22-24 Pop. and before your 4th hat which is around 26-31 depending on your eco and the meta-game. If you see early lots and +1 you can go straight to lurker->with +1carpace and 4 scourge and alot of drones.
If you see don't see +1/zealots t get hydra speed + overlord speed + 4/6 scourge and later +1 carpace. He might be going sair reaver. Use scourge to find out as soon as you can morph them right after spire. The timming will work perfectly.
Now that is just a basic A B C approach you can use if you would like to continue going 9pool, You can be aggressive or Macro or Tech to two hat muta or 3 hat hydra bust or even 3 hat lurker/ling bust, whichever you would like.
The way you did it including your first hat placement is bad, you need that hat to have 2-3 drones mining asap to give you the money to power whether its a tech/macro or aggressive build.
After that he was able to scout 4 hat which isn't that great vs a straight up +1 attack rush, but you got lurkers, so he built 5-6 temps and teched to obs. All the while your phony contain ruined your game. A contain is TO CONTAIN TO CONSTRICT not be complacent. Obs and Templar are your BIGGEST ENEMYS in a hydra/lurker vs lot/temp/goon army... (I'm sure you agree). If you took 5-6 hydras you could have ran up and killed a temp(or two) for so long, and made him waste a storm or even two if he over reacted(or you dodged well) instead you sat them, and let him MACRO MACRO MACRO and upgrade and get 2 storms per temp, which times 5(or 6) templars is alot of fucking storms for ANY hydra heavy army, fuck 50-60 hydras would hate to be around 10-12 storms, let alone 20...
Your contain failed, not because he broke it, because it broke you, you didn't keep reinforcing your contain with more and more shit while expanding more and more and getting Melee/carpace upgrades and going mass crackling / lurker. You simply put your army in 1 place for him to walk up at leisure and mass storm, hydras limit this, and then you counter his units, when you are preasuring with small groups of hydras if you see tons of lots MORE lurkers TONS 20 fuck it, if he can't break it you win right?... if you see tons of goons Mass ling/hydra + lurker. [b]SPIRE is a contain must, if you do a good contain he will drop you. If you do a bad one his obs run free. Scourge stops both.[/b]
You failed to choose a definate strategy and keep tabs on his. You can keep your money low and get alot of nice expos and even a decent amount of units, but not countering or outmassing his army will lose you the game everytime, You did neither, so you lost.
Don't let toss save 10 storms... I'm saying this again because god damnit, that is the cardinal zerg sin. Letting toss get enough storms to wipe out there tier 1/1.5/2.0/2.5 units.
His money got high because he had a great economy and not the best macro. But your gave him a free win with not enough of the right units(lurkers and NO scourge) and all the wrong units(at that point: massing hydras)[
I hope this helps you. If he doesn't , let me know because I think I did a pretty good job explain the type of strategy you are doing and how to work it alittle more?
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Oh btw, another thing don't underestimate your oppt.
Not when they beat you on tech and macro. He had 1 option MASS ground units, you had many options. His one option was way better then then what you did. Since you didn't stop his ONLY OPTION, I would say you were the worse of the two players. Even jaedong/flash/best/bisu/stork/july/luxury/FORGG & SEA can get over 1000 minerals... fuck I've seen everyone of those players over 2k before(except Forgg actually I take that back)
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When I play 4 hatch hydra - I usually stick to 2 base and go for fast drops with lurkers. When I have ~8 hydra i go pressure his front to make him think im going for a hydra break, which usually gets him to spam cannons. As I drop him, i use the lurkers above a ramp( if any) and use the hydra to pick off key buildings. At this point I have double expod, thrown down my evos, and start to get hive.
If the drop doesnt wreck them outright, than its still pretty easy to win the game since youll have 4 base, upgraded crack, and eventually ultra/more expos.
I'll watch the replay and offer some advice.
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1. Wheres your spire? You need a spire - gives you soooo many more options - and forces him to add cannons/waste money if you threaten muta for example.
2. Wheres your +1 carapace evo?
3. You probably should have gone 5 hatch hydra and powered drones for a little bit since he opened stargate instead of straight +1 speed
4. When containing, get the lurkers as far up as possible. You want to stress him, and taking pot shots as his units queue is def stress
5. What really happened is that you over expoed and he was waiting for a +2 push. If hes going for a +2 push youre going to want a good flank of lurkers, hydra, and lings - prefrebly want 1/1 at this point - to stop it. When you damage or beat back that push you expo than, not earlier.
6. Drops are good pn python bc it lets you abuse the islands as well.
So all in all - power more drones earlier, prepare for the +2 push by getting your upgrades, getting your tech, getting your units and setting yourself up a flank - than think about expoing. If he loses on his push you pretty much have map control, will soon have the upgrade and tech advantage (cracks) and the expo advantage to get to ultras.
Also, his placement was bad and was asking for a runby - if your opening overpool, get speed.
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nice post attackzerg, i wasnt agree with Xstatic and Cascade, so is nice to read something more alike my style.
Against p I usually play 9 pool speed and stop mining gas until third hatch and do a very heavy macro build. Sometimes i dont even do 6 lings, i do 4 and 1 drone, but only if there isnt a scouting probe in my base or i am pretty sure he is FE, anyway, here the containment begins, until a fast cann break, or mid-game where i want to have 4 gas before p third.
Anyway, as everyone told, speed is vital, if you dont get it is just to easy to your oppt to keep his probe alive.
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On August 07 2008 18:29 coltrane wrote:
nice post attackzerg, i wasnt agree with Xstatic and Cascade, so is nice to read something more alike my style.
Against p I usually play 9 pool speed and stop mining gas until third hatch and do a very heavy macro build. Sometimes i dont even do 6 lings, i do 4 and 1 drone, but only if there isnt a scouting probe in my base or i am pretty sure he is FE, anyway, here the containment begins, until a fast cann break, or mid-game where i want to have 4 gas before p third.
Anyway, as everyone told, speed is vital, if you dont get it is just to easy to your oppt to keep his probe alive.
Well I was recommending getting speed for him. I actually go 9pool speed, as a fake 80% of the time and then go 3 hat (2 expos) then lair and put drones back on gas. This way he has to make 2 cannons, I deny him with 6-8 probes and my spire is done 3-4 seconds before his stargate ... and I do a slightly later den with earlier +1 ... it murders on iccup badly. if they make early lots then I get speed after lair and go 3 hat muta/ling which crushes, the key is the fake imo. Try it, only if you are fast enough to catch all probes, on bluestorm and python its super easy, on othello,andro not so much t.t
thanks for the compliment btw.
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On August 07 2008 14:46 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2008 08:54 PH wrote:
Most players don't maynard more than 2-4, if any at all. (: When I played zerg it worked out perfectly usually when i would transfer 3-5, usually 4 when i 12hatch FE.
Whenever I 12 Hatch (which is actually my most common opening), I transfer at most two drones, if any at all. Personally, I don't think it's worth the loss in mining time to transfer two of the twelve drones you have mining to your new expansion. None of your drones are going to be idle waiting for a patch to open up with that few drones, so I don't bother.
I could very well be wrong, as I've seen very good players transfer as many as four, but at the same time, I've seen pros transfer no more than two as well.
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9 ol pool with speed ? I used to do that a lot ( seeing mondragon ) but is it rly working without runby ? On python 4 probes on choke and there is no runby .. Getting speed to kill his scout when many times u can do it without speed anyways ... sorry I don`t get it still .
Btw thx for a nice posts guys , AttackZerg your`s helped a lot ty =]
The reason why I do not 12 hatch is cheeze and 2 gate. Many times I loose to 2 gates outside whatever he does. If I loose just 1-2 drones + sunken up I m so behind .. he exps asap and I somehow can`t win. Also very hard to do anything vs 4 zealas + 3 probes ( without loosing drones = impossible , at least I don`t know how ) 9 ol pool deals with this better ^^
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On August 08 2008 00:05 Zerg_Sasuke wrote:
9 ol pool with speed ? I used to do that a lot ( seeing mondragon ) but is it rly working without runby ? On python 4 probes on choke and there is no runby .. Getting speed to kill his scout when many times u can do it without speed anyways ... sorry I don`t get it still .
Btw thx for a nice posts guys , AttackZerg your`s helped a lot ty =]
The reason why I do not 12 hatch is cheeze and 2 gate. Many times I loose to 2 gates outside whatever he does. If I loose just 1-2 drones + sunken up I m so behind .. he exps asap and I somehow can`t win. Also very hard to do anything vs 4 zealas + 3 probes ( without loosing drones = impossible , at least I don`t know how ) 9 ol pool deals with this better ^^
The thing about speed is making sure you are gonna take down EVERY scouting probe.
You told it, many times, not always, with speed probe havent got any choice.
As attackzerg told u need to be fast enough to actually contain him with 6-8 lings outside his base, so he dont have any clue about what is happening. It is common to good protoss to try to scout anyway, so maybe the first zealot is gonna go after your lings and sneak a probe out his base for scouting. You need to deal with the zealot while taking down the probe, so speed is a must. Speed is not just for run by witt lings, but anyway if you get speed he will need to put canns before expo and block with probes, you are alredy disturbing his economy even not running by.
I think 1 sunk in your expo is pretty good against fe, is not a waste at all, cause unless his placement is wrong or he didnt cann you are not going to run by, so after 6-8 lings you will make pure drone until you reach some tech. If you dont put a sunk and then you lose 2 drone to zealot harass then you are SO behind.
I usually make 1 sunk so i can be outside of my base with all of my lings. If he moves out in a cheese game soon with some zealots i keep my 6-8 lings outside his base, he will try to sneak a probe for expo, thats the priority, to kill every expo attempt. Then i make a second sunk netx to first and lings in every hatch, sneak a drone to a previously overlorded expo.
You need to know, 1 sunk > 2 zea, 4 lings > 1 zea, against 5 is better 1 sunk and 10 lings than 3 sunks or 20 lings. back an forth with lings in your sunk line will give you some free hits.
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rep
I did 5 hatch hydra -- > mutas bo. Still I did loose . He just outmassed me . I did some mistakes like no ol on time stopping my supply etc but I think that even if I executed bo perfectly I would loose anyways ><
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even when that scouting probe seems to be gosu, it isnt. Just lack of speedlings.
It was a little bit late to mutalisk, 5 hatch muta is slower than ht storm, 4 hatch muta will bring your mutas to his base before storm is ready. You need to fix your overlord issue, you had 5 hatch, but then you had 15 larvae, that is not good, you are wasting larvae replenish if you let the hatcheries to get the top. If you are having overlord issues try to make a few sunks and spawning drones one on each hatchery, or some attack units, is better to spawn 3 units from diferent hatcheries than 3 from the same hatchery. With 5 hatcherias you should be 10 or more suply room over your actual pop all the time until you reach 200, the only moment that you can skip making overlords is when you are trading your units for his.
You saw a lot of gateways, but you didnt make any more hatchs, nor sunks, not even lurk.
I dont see why to get quick third gas and delay ups or hive tech, one of both. Spend the gas, gas is the winning key.
Another issue, you need to be clear with your muta's target. You want to harass works? then do so. If you cant snipe ht, scout expos so you can take down probes delaying them, if you miss the timing be aware of the transfer, you can kill a lot of probes with 7 mutalisk, i think unless you are trying to kill canns you dont need anymore than 7 with p. 11 is a good number too, you do full damage and hook owies to their group.
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EPT
