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It's me again, hello 
I've got a few more questions about the Bisu Build (Sair/DT) in PvZ. I understand that it's somewhat outdated and that a focus on earlier Speedlots, +1 Air/Ground weapons, and Storm is a more modern approach, BUT:
Assuming I DO want to still play this, I'm a bit confused about the roadmap that is shown on the liquipedia article for this build:
1) The Citadel of Adun is listed with the first 100 gas after your first Sair, and before the second. If you follow a generic FFE build though (might be different with Gate FE, haven't tried that), you'll be on a massive Gas overflow if you wait this long. You could easily either get the Citadel right after your SG, or could keep the Citadel timing mentioned in the build but get +1 Ground/Air weapons beforehand (neither of which are mentioned at all in the article). Is this on purpose? An oversight? And if it's an oversight, am I assuming correctly that I'd want the Citadel right after SG for an as-early-as-possible-DT-timing?
2) Since I'm not aiming for a +1 Speedlot timing as I would with the Neo Bisu Build, am I still supposed to move out with my early Zealots? (Assuming I'm being given the chance ofc) It feels a bit like an anti-timing if I move out with ~5 Slowlots and ~2 Sairs right when my DTs are in production - a different idea would be to pool the Zealots and use them for multipronged harass, having them move out together with my DTs and attack a different base/expansion of the Zerg player. Any input?
3) If I do NOT want to take a 3rd base, and go for a strong 2-base-timing off of this, what is the general amount of Gateways I should be aiming for? I assume 6-8? And would I in that case still research Storm or stick to Zealot/DT/Archon? How far do I generally still advance through the tech tree if going for a 2-base-timing? Do I add Goons and Range? A Robo? (Ofc I will need a Robo if he has Lurkers) Do I add a Dark Archon with Maelstrom as a pseudo-replacement for Storm that doesn't take as long to research?
As always, thanks a ton for any kind of input and advice
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Netherlands5198 Posts
Excess gas is never bad if you have saturated your minerals and you're hitting your timings. If excess gas makes you miss timings then optimize it as needed. In PvZ you generally need all the gas you can get, so the excess gas might all be part of surviving mid game before you can establish a 3rd gas.
Generally you move out to force larvae into units that aren't drones or either punish the Zerg if he overdroned.
Gateway count kinda depends on what timing you wanna hit. With 2 fully saturated bases you definitely wanna go 8+ gates, unless you plan to use reavers.
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I would never recommend to make Archons instead of using HTs for storm unless a situation calls for it. Storm has so much more potential.
Hydras do 100% dmg vs Shield, Archons die like flies.
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I second MeSaber in the statement that prioritizing having storms over Archons is almost always better. As a zerg player if I see my enemy having a lot of Archons in the midgame it creates a window where I can get my macro cycles out, but if they have storms the need to babysit the hydras is so much more dire
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So first of all, thanks everybody for the replies
@peeano: i think you slightly misunderstood me about the gas. It's not like you're saving it for something, i think it really is just an oversight from whoever wrote the liquipedia article. You could either get the citadel right after your sg for an esrlier dt timing, or you could keep the timing mentioned in the guide ans get +1 air and ground weps - and neither option would delay any sairs or the templar archives :/
And regarding the moveout, i get that you want to force units, but does this mean i should be trickling my slowlots in one by one? Because otherwise, if i pool them, i either create an anti-timing of the 4-5 zealots hitting before the sairs+dts, or have the zealots idle for a long time.
@mesaber/akio: under "normal" circumstances i'd fully agree, but would this also apply for a 2 base timing attack followup? Storm is a relatively long upgrade, maybe you even need the extra energy, time for your hts to pool, etc. That's why i thought archons + maelstrom could be a compromise that obv doesn't pack the punch of storm, but is ready earlier
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On May 10 2023 20:56 WinstonBlack wrote:So first of all, thanks everybody for the replies @peeano: i think you slightly misunderstood me about the gas. It's not like you're saving it for something, i think it really is just an oversight from whoever wrote the liquipedia article. You could either get the citadel right after your sg for an esrlier dt timing, or you could keep the timing mentioned in the guide ans get +1 air and ground weps - and neither option would delay any sairs or the templar archives :/ And regarding the moveout, i get that you want to force units, but does this mean i should be trickling my slowlots in one by one? Because otherwise, if i pool them, i either create an anti-timing of the 4-5 zealots hitting before the sairs+dts, or have the zealots idle for a long time. @mesaber/akio: under "normal" circumstances i'd fully agree, but would this also apply for a 2 base timing attack followup? Storm is a relatively long upgrade, maybe you even need the extra energy, time for your hts to pool, etc. That's why i thought archons + maelstrom could be a compromise that obv doesn't pack the punch of storm, but is ready earlier
if it s not heavy muta/scourge play OR you go for a stargateless build and it turns ouyt Z will go muta, archon/maelstrom is worse than storm.
the liquipedia guide states those are guidelines and not a strict build (exact phrasing: "Once the requirements are fulfilled a Protoss can transition into the Bisu Build. Since the Build is not set in stone, the following table lists rough timings. " , if you find yourself floating resources, absolutely do go for +1 at the forge. and possibly even the +1 sair if you have the money for it and it doesnt delay your dts.
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On May 11 2023 00:04 WGT-Baal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2023 20:56 WinstonBlack wrote:So first of all, thanks everybody for the replies @peeano: i think you slightly misunderstood me about the gas. It's not like you're saving it for something, i think it really is just an oversight from whoever wrote the liquipedia article. You could either get the citadel right after your sg for an esrlier dt timing, or you could keep the timing mentioned in the guide ans get +1 air and ground weps - and neither option would delay any sairs or the templar archives :/ And regarding the moveout, i get that you want to force units, but does this mean i should be trickling my slowlots in one by one? Because otherwise, if i pool them, i either create an anti-timing of the 4-5 zealots hitting before the sairs+dts, or have the zealots idle for a long time. @mesaber/akio: under "normal" circumstances i'd fully agree, but would this also apply for a 2 base timing attack followup? Storm is a relatively long upgrade, maybe you even need the extra energy, time for your hts to pool, etc. That's why i thought archons + maelstrom could be a compromise that obv doesn't pack the punch of storm, but is ready earlier if it s not heavy muta/scourge play OR you go for a stargateless build and it turns ouyt Z will go muta, archon/maelstrom is worse than storm. the liquipedia guide states those are guidelines and not a strict build (exact phrasing: "Once the requirements are fulfilled a Protoss can transition into the Bisu Build. Since the Build is not set in stone, the following table lists rough timings. " , if you find yourself floating resources, absolutely do go for +1 at the forge. and possibly even the +1 sair if you have the money for it and it doesnt delay your dts.
I mean obviously they're guidelines, yes. But if everything else is at least listed in order, then it's not too far off to assume the citadel being listed in between sair 1 + 2 means you're supposed to get it in between the first and second sair.
Regarding archons: storms period, yes? Not just for macro games, but also 2 base timings or allins? The 4 gate 2 archon build just gets away with it because it hits earlier than a 2 base timing after sair/dt would, yes?
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On May 11 2023 02:46 WinstonBlack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2023 00:04 WGT-Baal wrote:On May 10 2023 20:56 WinstonBlack wrote:So first of all, thanks everybody for the replies @peeano: i think you slightly misunderstood me about the gas. It's not like you're saving it for something, i think it really is just an oversight from whoever wrote the liquipedia article. You could either get the citadel right after your sg for an esrlier dt timing, or you could keep the timing mentioned in the guide ans get +1 air and ground weps - and neither option would delay any sairs or the templar archives :/ And regarding the moveout, i get that you want to force units, but does this mean i should be trickling my slowlots in one by one? Because otherwise, if i pool them, i either create an anti-timing of the 4-5 zealots hitting before the sairs+dts, or have the zealots idle for a long time. @mesaber/akio: under "normal" circumstances i'd fully agree, but would this also apply for a 2 base timing attack followup? Storm is a relatively long upgrade, maybe you even need the extra energy, time for your hts to pool, etc. That's why i thought archons + maelstrom could be a compromise that obv doesn't pack the punch of storm, but is ready earlier if it s not heavy muta/scourge play OR you go for a stargateless build and it turns ouyt Z will go muta, archon/maelstrom is worse than storm. the liquipedia guide states those are guidelines and not a strict build (exact phrasing: "Once the requirements are fulfilled a Protoss can transition into the Bisu Build. Since the Build is not set in stone, the following table lists rough timings. " , if you find yourself floating resources, absolutely do go for +1 at the forge. and possibly even the +1 sair if you have the money for it and it doesnt delay your dts. I mean obviously they're guidelines, yes. But if everything else is at least listed in order, then it's not too far off to assume the citadel being listed in between sair 1 + 2 means you're supposed to get it in between the first and second sair. Regarding archons: storms period, yes? Not just for macro games, but also 2 base timings or allins? The 4 gate 2 archon build just gets away with it because it hits earlier than a 2 base timing after sair/dt would, yes?
Yes. 4 gate 2 archon is a specific timing but otherwise you want 8 gates, at least 4ht with energy banked up as you move out (so anywhere between 4 and 8 storms) and the rest goon/obs/zealot. With either +2 weapon or 1-1 for ground army as well as speed and range. You shouldn't have much gas left once this is ready to roll. Depending on the lurker timing you can go with no obs/less goons or not but the sairs, +1 air, storm, range and the robo/obs should eat up your gas bank fast.
Only exception is if you are forced to canon up then you want to remove some/all probes from your natural gas while you make canons, and put them back aftee you re done
If your sair/dt is successful (deny a 4th, kill the 3rd and drones etc) you can do 6 gate into your own 3rd based on what your corsairs see and the map.
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A DA with mael vs mutas is far more scarier than 1-2 archons. You can dance around Archons but mael shuts it down completely. You wont see a muta for the whole game.
To be fair mutas should never be a problem seeing how sair rules air. Controlling air (and enemy overlord count) is imo the recipe for success in PvZ.
You can check SnoW vids as a reference if you need sair tips, hes one of the best sair controllers. (And he keeps em alive nearly whole game which is my point)
The reason a zerg wants mutas in the first place is to kill your HTs, once thats done its a-move hydras. If you dont build HT/storm it isnt far from victory for zerg.
Storm harass is also strong once you got shuttle speed. (Implies mutas are gone and not too many scourge surrounding your base, scourges in enemy base you can dance around, shuttle is the same speed as scourge)
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On May 10 2023 02:15 WinstonBlack wrote:It's me again, hello I've got a few more questions about the Bisu Build (Sair/DT) in PvZ. I understand that it's somewhat outdated and that a focus on earlier Speedlots, +1 Air/Ground weapons, and Storm is a more modern approach, BUT: Assuming I DO want to still play this, I'm a bit confused about the roadmap that is shown on the liquipedia article for this build: 1) The Citadel of Adun is listed with the first 100 gas after your first Sair, and before the second. If you follow a generic FFE build though (might be different with Gate FE, haven't tried that), you'll be on a massive Gas overflow if you wait this long. You could easily either get the Citadel right after your SG, or could keep the Citadel timing mentioned in the build but get +1 Ground/Air weapons beforehand (neither of which are mentioned at all in the article). Is this on purpose? An oversight? And if it's an oversight, am I assuming correctly that I'd want the Citadel right after SG for an as-early-as-possible-DT-timing? 2) Since I'm not aiming for a +1 Speedlot timing as I would with the Neo Bisu Build, am I still supposed to move out with my early Zealots? (Assuming I'm being given the chance ofc) It feels a bit like an anti-timing if I move out with ~5 Slowlots and ~2 Sairs right when my DTs are in production - a different idea would be to pool the Zealots and use them for multipronged harass, having them move out together with my DTs and attack a different base/expansion of the Zerg player. Any input? 3) If I do NOT want to take a 3rd base, and go for a strong 2-base-timing off of this, what is the general amount of Gateways I should be aiming for? I assume 6-8? And would I in that case still research Storm or stick to Zealot/DT/Archon? How far do I generally still advance through the tech tree if going for a 2-base-timing? Do I add Goons and Range? A Robo? (Ofc I will need a Robo if he has Lurkers) Do I add a Dark Archon with Maelstrom as a pseudo-replacement for Storm that doesn't take as long to research? As always, thanks a ton for any kind of input and advice
First of all let me say I am happy you are trying the Bisu build.
After that I should say you that this is not the go to bo of modern bw. When this bo was designed zergs were playing really differently, and after the Bisu's pvz revolution zvp changed as well. It changed so much that now the most standard solid macro zvp bo is exactly the counter to the Bisu bo, aka the 3 hatch spire (not making mutas) 5 hat hidra.
With that in mind you should know that when your opponent plays that the DT sair is really bad.
Now to your questions:
1) yes, citadel asap. Waiting will gain you nothing. Also second gate at netural if you have room
2) you are supposed to be as agressive as you can, even more. All your advantage comes from agressivness. As you do not have the timing +1 push you do not need to collect 10-12 zealost, you can waste them. The reality is a bit more complex, as it depends if you can harass more or you have to push more with the dts as fighting units. In the second case zealots are good to tank shots.
3) 8. 6 is for expanding, 8 for fighting. If you stop sair production are go less goon and more zelot ht you can go 9 gates, but it is a bit allinish.
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EPT
