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What would it take for a new type of rts game to be valid for pro scbw players?
All suggestions apreciated.
Im thinking these options are important:
Income strategy - when to go for higher income when to go for units (risk, timing, counter options)
Unit choices - choosing what to make and when to make it - more choices is better than less? timing and counters, more choices must give better counter options outputting lesser mirror games.
Micro controlling. using the units you made best possible, combining units, timing the attack, choosing where to attack, field control and overview, awareness of enemy moves scouting.
Defences, when and where to place defences, risk and choose defence or units, increase income with defence or attack now.
Apm, beeing fast on the choices, moves. fast on income, fast on micro, fast on defence, fast on changing position. should fast apm have influence where the slow players have lesser chance to win even if enemy not making the best moves. The fast players can win even if making a few mistakes?
What you guys think?
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Just to be clear, you're talking about a UMS map, right?
You need to think about replayability.
The great thing about melee SCBW is that there are hundreds of melee maps you can play on. That's a lot of replayability.
With a UMS map, it's one game, one map. You can't just decide to play Evolves on Fighting Spirit. Any UMS will get stale much faster than melee SCBW unless you build in a replayability mechanic.
Here's an example of a replayability mechanic:
(*) There are 3 lanes going across the map. In each lane, a stream of computer units allied to you is fighting an opposing stream of computer units allied to your opponent.
(*) The computer units fighting in the lanes are different each game. In one game, Lane 1 is Scouts vs Scouts, Lane 2 is Ultralisks vs Ultralisks, and Lane 3 is Marines vs Marines. Next game, they're all different. The selection is made by one or more players at the start of the game. (This is the replayability mechanic.)
(*) You have a home base, there's some kind of economic system, and you can purchase units to fight with that are under your direct control. Your fighting units can attack the enemy home base or intervene in the computer unit battles in any lane, and your fighting units can attack the opponent's fighting units.
(*) You choose a squad at the start of the game from about 12 different options. This is a one-time choice that will give you fighting units right from the start. Your choice of squad will depend on what computer units are fighting in the lanes.
(*) There are strategic locations and resources/powerups both along the lanes and off the lanes. So there are reasons to skirmish and control territory both in the lane tug-of-war and elsewhere around the map.
In this scheme there's a fair amount of replayability, with the fighting lanes being different each time. You want to choose units that are effective at supporting/defeating whatever computer units are in the lanes, and that's before thinking about countering the opponent's choices. The initial squad choice adds more replayability on top of that (as long as squad choice isn't trivial after lanes are assigned).
With a rich econ/army building system, this could be very replayable. If there's a clever way to randomize or toggle the nature of the resources/powerups that are located out on the map, that would add even more strategy (and scouting).
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To explain things more.
im doin an ums map for the best of the best scbw players. so i wanted input from the best of the best players which could be here on this forum. if not the players here than the viewers might have good suggestions.
now to the map im making.
ill have a ecosystem just like producing workers in melee or fastest map and taking other bases expand its called increase the econ as far i know. in melee theres lots to the eco risk of expand less defence less attack enemy can expand too and speed of expanding fast while also producing units and defence. this is indeed what makes a melee map so packet with skill strategy its not just fast apm, its timing, choices, prediction, counter, overview or awareness, placement, and apm(speed). this is indeed good but all melee maps are very much alike and for players this might be abit monotopic idk if the good players wanna spice up scbw, than its me who will give em the right map to do that.
the ecosystem im doin is activated from a dropship and has 8 options, which is abit more than choosing to add more workers or expand, too this it comes that you can produce units that increase income, these units can be killed by enemy so its a risk to make them. two units for the eco is total 10 options about the eco, further more youll be able to expand taking control of economic areas where you can harvest youre way to more income these bases can be killed by enemy so theres a risk to that aswell. so what im thinking to have is 10 functions of economic choices and the possiblity to expand. some of my eco is in level where other is in % i use both gas and mineral. the level increase is ofcourse higher at first and lower in end, like 1 vs 2 and 1000 vs 1001 but having the highest lvl will pay off over time. but choosing to produce units instead of eco will make you able to expand abit like melee. not that level 1001 will ever be good that will take way too much time. but its possible if players wanted a three day battle kinda. goin from lvl1 to lvl2 will take 10 sec to even out and the 11 sec lvl2 will pay off to be more precise, so lvl1001 will take 50000 second to even out and pay off. lvl 100 eco mineral in this will be more than fast for players to handle, games will prolly be ended on lvl 25-75 depending on how even or long they are. the longer game the better it will be to have upgraded income ofcourse.
for the units side each player will have all units to make all races. but they will be given to an computer abit like tug of war.. the eco is ok fast so the players will have to hotkey buildings and produce em which is where apm comes to play. to this a bulk option is there for players to produce units faster for the computer. but for the players they will have 9 units to buy for controlling them selves adding power for the computer army, this again makes need of apm. while they will have a worker to expand and make defences, ive made a vision toggle so players can stack canons, and make main expo to harvest ressource in field while defending it maybe if thats what they choose. this gameplay will be active and exciting even for the best players cause it has all the strategy buildt into it and together with the speed need to play this could be a map for the pros. all units will be normal not an eud map, tho canons will be cheap and less strong for the purpose of stacking them in medium high numbers.
its prolly hard to avoid some mirror play but compared to melee race vs race this has way more units that opens up the counter strategy instead of mirror plays which will make it more intresting to watch. I have to say that so many ums maps are basicly made for the slow and not so good players including youre excample evolves. its nearly all ums maps that dont contain alot of strategy or balance for that matter, maybe its also the reason why ums in general is looked upon that way from the skilled players community. But implementing the right stuff into an ums map will make it surely intresting for those with speed and skill. a melee map is a ums map made by blizzard devs kinda, ofcourse i know each melee map layout is diff but basics in a melee map are more less same.
Im surely a scbw fan i love the scbw balance. My skill in adding strategy into a map is good and to balance aswell. But id like to hear youre thoughts?
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I agree that more choices are better than less.
I do believe that pro players make mistakes often, but regular players cannot notice them easily. Regular players make a lot more mistakes, so the balance is in favor of pro players.
I also believe that attacking early in game is the best choice for a regular player against a pro player. I think that a map should not benefit rushing strategies, like Blood Bath for example.
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On April 11 2022 06:05 Djabanete wrote:
Just to be clear, you're talking about a UMS map, right?
You need to think about replayability.
The great thing about melee SCBW is that there are hundreds of melee maps you can play on. That's a lot of replayability.
With a UMS map, it's one game, one map. You can't just decide to play Evolves on Fighting Spirit. Any UMS will get stale much faster than melee SCBW unless you build in a replayability mechanic.
Here's an example of a replayability mechanic:
(*) There are 3 lanes going across the map. In each lane, a stream of computer units allied to you is fighting an opposing stream of computer units allied to your opponent.
(*) The computer units fighting in the lanes are different each game. In one game, Lane 1 is Scouts vs Scouts, Lane 2 is Ultralisks vs Ultralisks, and Lane 3 is Marines vs Marines. Next game, they're all different. The selection is made by one or more players at the start of the game. (This is the replayability mechanic.)
(*) You have a home base, there's some kind of economic system, and you can purchase units to fight with that are under your direct control. Your fighting units can attack the enemy home base or intervene in the computer unit battles in any lane, and your fighting units can attack the opponent's fighting units.
(*) You choose a squad at the start of the game from about 12 different options. This is a one-time choice that will give you fighting units right from the start. Your choice of squad will depend on what computer units are fighting in the lanes.
(*) There are strategic locations and resources/powerups both along the lanes and off the lanes. So there are reasons to skirmish and control territory both in the lane tug-of-war and elsewhere around the map.
In this scheme there's a fair amount of replayability, with the fighting lanes being different each time. You want to choose units that are effective at supporting/defeating whatever computer units are in the lanes, and that's before thinking about countering the opponent's choices. The initial squad choice adds more replayability on top of that (as long as squad choice isn't trivial after lanes are assigned).
With a rich econ/army building system, this could be very replayable. If there's a clever way to randomize or toggle the nature of the resources/powerups that are located out on the map, that would add even more strategy (and scouting).
now that i read it again i think you say excaktly what im doin nearly only im not using lanes fully the way you say and choosing a squad from one of 12 options will be way more like can choose either rines bc or what ever unit you wanna start with, ill be sure to make any squads or units choosed able to be countered from the other side, and yeah youll be able to buy controlled units to use for helping youre computer ally and attack enemy computer or enemy player controlled units or areas. is funny you have nearly my way of thinking to make this map more less, i like that. please share more ideas or input. Im pretty sure what ill make will have replay ability/variation in games.
randomizided powerups placed around on the map is a good idea
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On April 11 2022 07:22 Lavalisk wrote:
I agree that more choices are better than less.
I do believe that pro players make mistakes often, but regular players cannot notice them easily. Regular players make a lot more mistakes, so the balance is in favor of pro players.
I also believe that attacking early in game is the best choice for a regular player against a pro player. I think that a map should not benefit rushing strategies, like Blood Bath for example.
Indeed i aim for the this map gameplay to take between 30-40 mins if even skilled players meet. where good/pro players vs regular players can win in like 10-20min
but ofcourse aimed for an 40min gameplay will not benefit full rush strategies, so its gonna be abit more diff than a battle of blood bath
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When im done this map soon, Can i find some of the good players here to test, analize and review it?
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Im up for some analization. Edit: I mean testing the map.
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On April 15 2022 13:30 MeSaber wrote:
Im up for some analization. Edit: I mean testing the map.
Im happy to hear that.. I wont let you down on youre expectations, i hope not.
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I have an idea for a "dice-rolling" mechanic in case you wish to include randomness in some way.
As far as I know, it is not possible to make the BW map editor randomly generate a number --- at least, not directly.
But you can do it indirectly. Suppose that you'd like a random number generator that ranges from 1 to 36.
In a little corner of the map, create two strips of flat terrain. Divide each strip into six locations.
A strip looks like this: ######. With locations labeled, it looks like 123456.
Another strip looks like this: %%%%%%. With locations labeled, it looks like ABCDEF.
Place a civilian on each strip. Order it to patrol from one end of its strip to the other.
Place multiple Rhynadons on each strip.
Soon, the locations of the civilians will be random. Maybe they'll be at C and 5. Maybe E and 1. It will be unpredictable.
Now you have two "dice" that are constantly being rolled in a little corner of the map.
For example, if you wanted a trigger that would have one result 50% of the time and another result the rest of the time, you'd enter:
IF (necessary condition) AND civ is at location 1, 2, or 3,
THEN (outcome 1 out of 2)
IF (necessary condition) AND civ is at location 4, 5, or 6,
THEN (outcome 2 out of 2)
You could break it down as many as 36 ways.
About random powerups. Let's say there are spots on the map that you'd like to make strategically desirable, but in a random way, so games are always different.
You can create 36 random powerup types. They could be one-shot, recurrent, or permanent effects. A given powerup spot has no type assigned to it until a player places a unit there. As soon as a player does, the powerup gains its type according to the "dice" civilians.
Different powerups could be represented by different buildings (e.g., Khaydarin Crystals, Xel'Naga Temple, etc.)
(Example: There's a beacon near your base. You move a Zergling onto the beacon. A Khaydarin Crystal Formation appears adjacent to the beacon, and you see a message: "Powerup Gained: +50 minerals per 15 kills.")
Powerups could be forced to be symmetrical: If I get a Khaydarin Crystal powerup, then the corresponding powerup on your side of the map will be the same, although you still need to send a unit there to claim it, and you still don't see what it is until you claim it.
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On April 16 2022 02:29 Djabanete wrote:
I have an idea for a "dice-rolling" mechanic in case you wish to include randomness in some way.
As far as I know, it is not possible to make the BW map editor randomly generate a number --- at least, not directly.
But you can do it indirectly. Suppose that you'd like a random number generator that ranges from 1 to 36.
In a little corner of the map, create two strips of flat terrain. Divide each strip into six locations.
A strip looks like this: ######. With locations labeled, it looks like 123456.
Another strip looks like this: %%%%%%. With locations labeled, it looks like ABCDEF.
Place a civilian on each strip. Order it to patrol from one end of its strip to the other.
Place multiple Rhynadons on each strip.
Soon, the locations of the civilians will be random. Maybe they'll be at C and 5. Maybe E and 1. It will be unpredictable.
Now you have two "dice" that are constantly being rolled in a little corner of the map.
For example, if you wanted a trigger that would have one result 50% of the time and another result the rest of the time, you'd enter:
IF (necessary condition) AND civ is at location 1, 2, or 3,
THEN (outcome 1 out of 2)
IF (necessary condition) AND civ is at location 4, 5, or 6,
THEN (outcome 2 out of 2)
You could break it down as many as 36 ways.
About random powerups. Let's say there are spots on the map that you'd like to make strategically desirable, but in a random way, so games are always different.
You can create 36 random powerup types. They could be one-shot, recurrent, or permanent effects. A given powerup spot has no type assigned to it until a player places a unit there. As soon as a player does, the powerup gains its type according to the "dice" civilians.
Different powerups could be represented by different buildings (e.g., Khaydarin Crystals, Xel'Naga Temple, etc.)
(Example: There's a beacon near your base. You move a Zergling onto the beacon. A Khaydarin Crystal Formation appears adjacent to the beacon, and you see a message: "Powerup Gained: +50 minerals per 15 kills.")
Powerups could be forced to be symmetrical: If I get a Khaydarin Crystal powerup, then the corresponding powerup on your side of the map will be the same, although you still need to send a unit there to claim it, and you still don't see what it is until you claim it.
Ive worked alot with map making. youre system with the civil has a few issues to it, i fully know how to make the best randomized systems, if need like 36options thats possible tho without use of terrain and units, I use DC when making systems let it be random or not random. DC is variables i can adjust in the map trigger without players seeing it at all. Im fully capable of doin any random systems. So what you want is 36 types of powerups that players can find on (random spots?) symetric or static spots? Id think total random would be best not symetric but having all powerups having close to same power in different ways.. Tho im not sure what all the powerups should be, and 36 powerups types is kind of alot. I like you 1 excample of an powerup +50 mineral per 15 kill, if you have ideas for the other powerups it would be really good. I have couple simple ideas like Free one time mineral bonus, free one time gas bonus, an Income boost for a period of time. but remember doin all this could take long time to make if theres many types with complicated systems on them. a few random powerup types could be cool to add tho.
Idk i like the +50mineral per 15kill could be a timed powerup aswell like for 5 minuts or so.
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Some powerup ideas below. Most of these reward multitasking and territory control in some way.
Bomb Depot: [One-time] Spawn one Infested Terran + [Recurring] When a friendly Infested Terran dies anywhere, spawn another Infested Terran at the powerup site after five seconds.
\\ This powerup gives you an "immortal" Infested Terran. It can be killed, but it will come
back. Unlimited bombs, one at a time, for a player with enough APM to use them.
Surveillance Drone Depot: Like Bomb Depot above, but for Observers.
Anti-Air Missile Depot: Like Bomb Depot above, but for Scourges.
\\ This "unit depot" concept works for any unit, obviously. Science Vessels, a Zeratul, etc.
Maintenance Hangar: [Recurring] Any friendly Terran or Protoss air unit above the powerup site gets fully healed every 7 seconds.
Embassy: [One-time] Create an invincible Diplomat (renamed Civilian) --- or gain control of it if the opponent previously acquired this powerup. [Recurring] The Diplomat returns to the Embassy every minute.
Hospital: [Recurring] Any friendly ground unit at the powerup site gets fully healed every 7 seconds.
Mana Shrine: [Recurring] Any friendly unit at the powerup site gets a full mana replenish every 7 seconds.
Spellcasting Academy: [Static] Whenever you bring a nonhero spellcaster unit to the Spellcasting Academy, it disappears. One minute later, a hero version of that unit spawns at the Spellcasting Academy. (For example, an Arbiter will become a Danimoth.)
The Basics:
(*) Periodically spawn a particular unit (Zergling, Marine, etc.)
(*) One-shot effect: Spawn a small squad of units
(*) Periodically generate resources
(*) One-shot effect: Gain resources
(*) Periodically give units to computer ally in their combat lane (You can give stronger units to computer ally than to player because computer ally is less good at using them)
(*) One-shot effect: Give a strong unit to computer ally in their combat lane (Archon, Battlecruiser, Ultralisk)
Armageddon Machine: [One-shot] When you discover this, you see a message that it's an Armageddon Machine, but nothing happens. [One-shot] When you bring four workers to the Armageddon Machine, remove the Armageddon Machine, empty all resources from your bank, and destroy all units in the computer-ally combat lane(s).
Unstable Mine: [Recurring] Gives you a generous resource income, but has very low HP. If it's destroyed, it never comes back. Encourages opponent to skirmish.
I'll post more ideas if I think of them.
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On April 16 2022 06:18 Djabanete wrote:
Some powerup ideas below. Most of these reward multitasking and territory control in some way.
Bomb Depot: [One-time] Spawn one Infested Terran + [Recurring] When a friendly Infested Terran dies anywhere, spawn another Infested Terran at the powerup site after five seconds.
\\ This powerup gives you an "immortal" Infested Terran. It can be killed, but it will come
back. Unlimited bombs, one at a time, for a player with enough APM to use them.
Surveillance Drone Depot: Like Bomb Depot above, but for Observers.
Anti-Air Missile Depot: Like Bomb Depot above, but for Scourges.
\\ This "unit depot" concept works for any unit, obviously. Science Vessels, a Zeratul, etc.
Maintenance Hangar: [Recurring] Any friendly Terran or Protoss air unit above the powerup site gets fully healed every 7 seconds.
Embassy: [One-time] Create an invincible Diplomat (renamed Civilian) --- or gain control of it if the opponent previously acquired this powerup. [Recurring] The Diplomat returns to the Embassy every minute.
Hospital: [Recurring] Any friendly ground unit at the powerup site gets fully healed every 7 seconds.
Mana Shrine: [Recurring] Any friendly unit at the powerup site gets a full mana replenish every 7 seconds.
Spellcasting Academy: [Static] Whenever you bring a nonhero spellcaster unit to the Spellcasting Academy, it disappears. One minute later, a hero version of that unit spawns at the Spellcasting Academy. (For example, an Arbiter will become a Danimoth.)
The Basics:
(*) Periodically spawn a particular unit (Zergling, Marine, etc.)
(*) One-shot effect: Spawn a small squad of units
(*) Periodically generate resources
(*) One-shot effect: Gain resources
(*) Periodically give units to computer ally in their combat lane (You can give stronger units to computer ally than to player because computer ally is less good at using them)
(*) One-shot effect: Give a strong unit to computer ally in their combat lane (Archon, Battlecruiser, Ultralisk)
Armageddon Machine: [One-shot] When you discover this, you see a message that it's an Armageddon Machine, but nothing happens. [One-shot] When you bring four workers to the Armageddon Machine, remove the Armageddon Machine, empty all resources from your bank, and destroy all units in the computer-ally combat lane(s).
Unstable Mine: [Recurring] Gives you a generous resource income, but has very low HP. If it's destroyed, it never comes back. Encourages opponent to skirmish.
I'll post more ideas if I think of them.
Many good ideas here.. but some of them is very time consuming to make each of them, which still is possible, but also they contradict with the basics of the map, is that players can create all units for youre comp ally in youre home base.
some of the units spawns can used tho. like youre ecample of players getting an infested terran invisble for the players when ever the computer ally lose one infested, that one can be used and is good. periodical spawning units or changing the units into hero units are not so good i think. cause i already have a high amount of stuff for players to do and for players to have a massive army would be unusefull, healing the army im not sure how strong that is compared an income powerup. ill think alot about all these ideas djabanete thanks alot. you welcome with more.
I aim to revolution the understanding of ai skills.. Its common known that ai dont use skills well but i have experience with super ai units from testing several things through time, so ill aim for making the negative vision on cpu ai a myth im not fully sure i can succed but i believe its possible. Im soon done with system so i can start testing my ideas on the ai if it can work.
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Hey all here on TL.net
I now released this new tugofwars map ive been working on, I implemented so much strategy in that pro SCBW can make use of their skills in this map..
The income systems are so advanced and unlimited so its hard to figure out,, and thats where variation comes to play,, another factor is that you can make all scbw units for a computer player,, and a third factor is that you can buy units to control to use micro skills and support the computer force army, fourth factor is you can expand to take control new areas and harvest ressources to use and defend with stacked canons (yes you can stack canons in this map too,,) (risk factor, while theres several risk factors not only expanding but also adding boost units for the team). fifth factor must be the timing of stacking the complete army said in other words timing the attack. sixth factor is the apm needed, in this you need fast apm, slow players cant follow up vs fast players.
another thing i can say is that i also made it quite simple to learn and play,, thats ofcourse important when making maps.
last thing id say about my map is that i invented a completely new active location grid that lets me control computer owned units very precisely no other map maker did this not even with eud. I achived to win 15 zealots default with legs speed vs 10 dragoons default with range upgrade. the 10 dragoon nearly won the 15 zealots something only humans can do normal, but with my ai system its possible to make computer units micro. try it out
Heres link for downloading and testing my new map
http://www.staredit.net/topic/18475/#1
https://bounding.net/map/27zzfs2H
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Hey GGmano, I was hoping you hadn't given up on your map. I'm not in a position to test StarCraft maps right now, but if you ever have a video to share I will be interested to see the gameplay. Congratulations on the playable map.
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I didnt have anyone to test with so the initial release had several bugs ive been fixing those and updating it.. still not sure about one 3v3 bug(activating defeat or victory for players) cause the game to end at very start (i should have fixed this now but not 100% sure), but you can train and test map vs 0 players (1vs0) and map can be played 1v1, im not sure if it works 2v2 and 3v3 but that ill test today,, if not ill fix it ofcourse,, other initialy bugs ive fixed, Map will end if it goes from 3v3 to 3v2 one leaves and game ends with victory for the largest team. same with 2v2 goin 2v1.
Yeah i promised to upload a video when i can play a full game of it without any issues ill upload it to staredit.net but lll link it here.
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A WC3 mod would be cool! Heroes, and upkeep for supply to make small macro battles more frequent.
So DotX (Defense of the Xel'Naga temple) and Aeon of Strife (AoS) which got remade in WC3 which became DotA (Defense of the Ancient) and that spawned a genre of a game. DotX utilized heroes by using buildings to use spells
Upkeep is resources that you lose to have a large supply army, this keeps armies smaller so that micro with heroes is more important.
Lastly I think each unit in the game should have increase health and cost. The increased health will make micro longer since units are not as fragile. Higher cost units will mean fewer units on the battle field so individual micro that you get in the early game lasts longer
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Ive so far tested it one time in 1v1 and some of the units x40 etc have too low dmg compared the high health power,, something to adjust but else this map seems very hard to play but simple to learn. i was so far from using a full power play i have x100times more unused ressources than i should,, i should have made units faster, fieldcontrol faster, micro faster, but controlling all this at the same time really hard.
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Give us new tilesets which come with new ramps, decos etc. I don't want anything else.
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that should be fairly easy to give, im sure theres many who does that.
I like to do the hard coding part mostly.
where doin a map graphip design is easy i think,, ofcourse theres higher demands on graphip when talking about melee maps to avoid huge imbalancies etc.
But id make a map graphip design like on this map in about 2 hours max where the coding part took me 90hours in this map or so.. if planing to balance and improve map it can take 10000 hours +
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EPT
