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Calgary25970 Posts
Enough threads about this. I'll keep the original post updated if people point out inevitable mistakes or have more to add. I'm going to start with whatever I get through and add more as I can. Holy fuck this is seven pages. Good look to those who get through it.
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General
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Overview
This guide doesn't seek to give earth-shattering advice that will shock your world. It simply looks to be a one stop collection of advice on Mutalisk control. It's going to be wordy. I'm going to use more paragraphs than I should simply to make it easier to read.
Early-game Mutalisks are harassment units and should be used as such. They should never directly engage an army. Their strength lies in their mobility, picking off stray units, workers and buildings. Because no unit is fast enough to keep up with Mutalisks, they provide indirect map control - if your opponent splits his army to attack you too early, Mutalisks can deal quite a headache by targeting undefended areas of your opponent's base and retreating once the defending army arrives.
The number of Mutalisks you decide to make is critical, specifically against Terran. For example, against Terran you will need 5 Mutalisks to kill a Turret in 5 group shots. 6 Mutalisks can kill the same Turret in 4 shots. 8 Mutalisks kill a Turret in 3 shots. It takes 12 Mutalisks to be able to kill the Turret in 2 shots. You can see that you are getting diminishing returns as you are adding Mutalisks to your group. So where is the ideal point to stop? It is ideas like this that this guide will try to give tangible rules and suggestions, while keep in mind that not every game can follow the same pattern.
Grouping
Let's get this out of the way. In order to make your Mutalisks clump up and look like a single Mutalisk, simply group them with a unit that is far away. There are two viable options, a Larva or an Overlord.
The advantage of the Larva is that it is unable to move, meaning you will not have to worry about where it is when controlling your Mutalisks. A big draw back to using the Larva is once it is morphed into an egg, it is removed from your group. If you aren't quick to notice, your Mutalisks will become unstacked and become much harder to control.
The Overlord is the better choice. Although there is the possibility of the Overlord flying into harm's way, losing an Overlord is much better than losing Mutalisks because they were unstacked and you couldn't control them. Ideally, if you notice your Overlord nearing the enemy base, stop it and remove it from the group, and then add a new Overlord from your base to the group. One note is not to add an Overlord you were purposely leaving behind for detection to your Mutalisk group.
Targeting
Now that your Mutalisks are clumped up as one, you want to make them fire at the same target. This is particularly true against Marines and workers - you want dead units. Dealing a bit of damage to all units does you no good.
Mutalisks have quite a range. Unfortunately, their AI is dumb so you rarely see it. If you attack-move a Mutalisk and let it acquire its own target, it will not find the target until it is in range, and then it will begin to decelerate and fire. This is why Mutalisks often look to have a small firing range, while human-controlled Mutalisks seem to have double or triple the range. To avoid this problem you have to control your Mutalisks. Always give them a target, never leave them on stop, attack or hold position.
To add to this, fight_or_flight asks "I have a question....sometimes I just tell the mutas to hold behind a mineral line that is hard to defend, but they end up just sitting there, not attacking. Is it because they have been hit by a unit that is out of range? Any solutions?"
Yes, if there are enemy fighting units around, your Mutalisks will not attack any non-fighting units or buildings until those fighting units are out of range or dead. This is why giving Mutalisks targets is so important.
Never let your Mutalisks decelerate, as their relatively slow acceleration could mean big problems when an army comes near. This is why you will often see progamers dancing their Mutalisks at full speed when there is no harm in sight - in the event that an army is arriving, the Mutalisks will already be at top speed and can easily escape. You should practise keeping your Mutalisks mobile and giving them targets.
In this vein, Mutalisks can only shoot in the direction they are facing. If you tell a Mutalisk to attack-move behind it, it will decelerate, turn around, and fire - an unfavourable result. Mutalisks can, however, turn around without decelerating, meaning if you first tell the Mutalisk to turn around, and then give the attack command (or much easier, simply target a unit behind it), it will happen much quicker. Once you've mastered this, you can issue a turn around command, then the attack command (or target a unit behind your group), followed by another turn around command, which will result in your Mutalisk essentially flying at full speed while firing backwards!
Now that you have a feel for the above points, you need a feel for Mutalisks cooldown. Cooldown is the time a unit must wait after attacking to attack again. There's no way I can explain Mutalisks' cooldown length to you in a meaningful way. If I were to guess, I'd say it's about 0.7 seconds. Does that help? Of course not.
The last decision to make regarding Mutalisk targeting is whether you should you attack with a right click or an attack-move. With all other units it's much more beneficial to use attack-move, because when you misclick, your units will still attack. When you misclick with a right click, your units simply run into the enemy. Because you should always be watching your Mutalisks, misclicking shouldn't result in many problems. Essentially, use whichever attack method you are more comfortable with.
Now that you have a feel for their range, speed and cooldown, you can start practising "sniping" units with Mutalisks. The methodology is simple - fly grouped Mutalisks straight at their target. Some time before they are in range, issue the command to attack. As soon as you fire, retreat your Mutalisks back a ways and then turn around for a second attack. You want to time your second attack so that you are reengaging the enemy just as your cooldown ends, thus maximizing your damage. It takes practise. Also, it is better to error on the side of waiting too long rather than not waiting long enough.
Chasing Fleeing Units
Like all units without firing animations, Mutalisks can attack while remaining at full movement speed. This is the origin of the term "dancing", although it has become diluted and is now usually applied to Dragoons. Simply issue the attack command followed instantly by the move command. One thing to note is if you do not give the Mutalisks a target, they often decelerate before firing. If you are chasing units that move at the same speed (Mutalisks, Corsairs, etc.) this will cause you to let them slowly get away. This is why you must target a unit rather than attack-moving.
Dealing with Latency
Latency is the time between when you issue a command and your units react to the command. You will notice on LAN or Hamachi, units respond instantly to commands, while on Battle.net there are slight delays. Normally these slight delays are not an issue, but when trying to execute difficult Mutalisk targeting, you should alter your game play and strategy to account for latency.
Every command you issue has to be before you need to happen. This means if you are targeting Marines, you actually need to tell your Mutalisks to run away before they have fired. Getting the timing down with Latency can be nearly impossible, meaning you should adjust your game accordingly in the following ways:
- Don't target Mutalisk-killing units.
Without Latency, Mutalisks can easily target Marines in groups or even Archons. You would be wise not to attempt these manoeuvres with latency. For every time it works, I would wager it will end in disaster 2 or more times.
- Don't overdo your dancing
Earlier I suggested that you always keep your Mutalisks moving at full speed to avoid ambush. Well, now I'm suggesting you don't do that with latency involved. When you're fighting a single Turret or a Cannon, just stay and kill it. When you find an undefended worker line, just sit there and target the Workers individually, rather than weaving in and out.
Remember that while your Mutalisks are alive they are dealing economic damage (you are expanding while he cannot move out) and also dealing psychological damage (frustration). Don't give this up trying to be a hero against a group of 24 Marines.
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Zerg
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Scourge
The plural of Scourge is Scourge, not Scourges (just like Templar -> Templar, not Templars). Die if you say that. Depending on the latency and your skill level, there are a few different ways to handle Scourge.
First, you never want to leave your Mutalisks idle in vision of enemy units, as this will allow your opponent to easily clone his Scourge against you. Ideally you want to be engaging the Scourge, forcing your opponent to try to clone them quickly, and increasing the chance that he makes an error.
That being said, Scourge lose their effectiveness as Mutalisk numbers increase - cloning them becomes difficult at high numbers and they are more likely to die from Mutalisks' bounce damage when moving in. If you find yourself ahead against a heavy Scourge user, you are better off building up your Mutalisks and then engaging.
When fighting an army of Mutalisks and Scourge, you want to bait the Scourge by engaging the Mutalisks. As soon as you see the Scourge approach, being your retreat, while focus firing backwards to eliminate the Scourge. Once they are gone, reengage the lone Mutalisks.
If you are getting chased by Scourge you have two options. The easiest is to try to figure out which Mutalisks are targeted by the Scourge, by sending them on different paths and seeing where the Scourge go. Once you know which Mutalisks aren't targeted, you can bring them back to fight while the targeted ones continue to run. Secondly, you can try the "Chinese Triangle" which was discussed in this link http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=51214 . I'll try to explain it with words but it might not come across, I encourage you to watch the video in that link if you want more information. Assume your Mutalisks are running east. You want to tell them to move in three different directions, essentially drawing a triangle. The first will be a 90 degree turn, so either north or south in this case. Let's assume north. Your second click is back towards the direction you were heading, but 45 degrees past. So in this example, you were flying east, then went north, and then went southeast. Your final click is back towards the direction you were running from, west in the case. So the entire manoeuvre is E, N, SE, W. If you do this properly, and very quickly, the Scourge screw up and spin back, giving you time to snipe one and continue running. Rinse and repeat. I pretty much do not advice you try this method ever, but it's included in this guide for posterity.
There is some minor debate about attack-move versus patrol when fighting Scourge. The general consensus is that patrol works better if it is placed properly (close to your Mutalisk group). I personally always use attack-move.
I am inexperienced with executing fancy micro against Scourge. There are a few ideas about killing Scourge in this thread (pages 2-4 specifically). You should read the advice offered there and test it on your own. I will mention, again, that if you have the advantage against a Scourge user, things will be much easier if you simply amass Mutalisks before attacking rather than engaging with a low number of Mutalisks. Mutalisk against Scourge micro is among the hardest in Starcraft, and the latency of Battle.net does not make it any easier.
Upgrades
Upgrades are a difficult part of Zerg play. First off, in Mutalisk versus Mutalisk battles, Carapace is always the best upgrade to get. If you can afford it, three carapace upgrades before any attack upgrades is preferred. When a Mutalisk fires, its damage is divided by 3 every bounce. This begins at 9,3,1. When you upgrade attack, this becomes 10, 3.33, 1.11, essentially an increase of 1.44 damage; however, when fighting an opponent who instead upgraded carapace, each of those hits gets reduced by 1, meaning it would become 9, 2.33, 0.11. The carapace-upgrade Mutalisks are taking 1.56 less damage per attack. If you don't understand, upgrade carapace. Additionally, Scourge benefit from the carapace upgrade, allowing them to avoid dying frmo bounce damage while closing in. It should be mentioned that because damage is counted as either an integer or a half, the numbers won't work out exactly as mentioned above, but it was just to give an example.
Upgrades' effectiveness increases as your number of units increases, so if you are getting a carapace upgrade, you are better off trying to defend and accumulate Mutalisks rather than playing a skirmish style of play. Similarly, if you suspect your opponent is stalling for his carapace upgrade to finish, you want to engage in skirmishes with Scourge and Mutalisks. If you are playing a map conducive to fast expansions and macro, you should begin the carapace upgrade as soon as your Spire finishes. If you are playing a more aggressive map, I would avoid the upgrade until you have at least expanded.
It is worth mentioning that some players have said that the cost differential between the second carapace and first attack upgrade make it more reasonable to upgrade attack rather than carapace as your second upgrade. While this may be true, if you are playing a game that is going long enough for you to consider a second upgrade, your Mutalisk numbers should be large enough that one less Mutalisk while you research the second carapace upgrade should not matter. If you are trying to punish your opponent while you have a carapace upgrade and he doesn't (much like Protoss does to Zerg while +1 weapons is finished before carapace), do not research a second upgrade. Time your attack to be maximized as soon as the upgrade completes.
As unlikely as it is, upgrade carapace against Hydralisks. Mutalisks are meant to take damage while Zerglings deal the damage. It should be noted that many players have said that they prefer getting Mutalisks attack, while helps in raiding, sniping stray Hydralisks and dealing with Spore Colonies. I disagree; I believe that carapace is necessary for allowing your army to live long enough to let Zerglings engage the Hydralisks and start dealing damage.
Grouping
To group with an Overlord or not? Let's discuss the pros and cons of each. If you group with an Overlord, your Mutalisks are easier to control when you are targeting and raiding. They are much harder to Scourge. However, you are more likely to lose that Overlord in this matchup. Losing an Overlord is actually a fairly big deal in Zerg versus Zerg. Also, when you get in large Mutalisk battles, the ones that stay clumped together tend to lose to the ones that fan out around them. I have no idea why, but from my experience, that's what happens. What I personally do is group them with an Overlord at the start of the game, and as our groups become larger, I'll ungroup them.
You should always focus fire when getting in small Mutalisk battles (less than 20). A dead Mutalisk isn't hurting you; several hurt Mutalisks are. In this vein, your groups should contain at most 7 Mutalisks, since 7 * 9 * 2 = 126, meaning you will kill a Mutalisk in 2 shots and not waste any damage. If either of you had upgraded, adjust accordingly. Once your numbers get larger than 20, forget about this and just group everything together. Once the battle starts you should focus more on bringing in reinforcements and Scourging properly.
Overlords
Overlords soak up Mutalisk bounce damage (they take damage that otherwise would have been dealt to a Mutalisk). Is this going to make up for the fact that he has 10 more Mutalisks than you? Of course not. Will it tip the balance in your favour with equal numbers of Mutalisks? Yes. It doesn't warrant getting the speed upgrade to use this tactic, but it is something to remember, especially in the case of close positions (Paranoid Androide, Lost Temple, Python). Keep in mind that Overlords benefit from the crapace upgrade as well, allowing them to soak up more bounce damage before dying. This is especially important in big, end-game Mutalisk battles.
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Terran
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The most obvious use of Mutalisk harass. I really don't have much to say here that isn't already known by everyone.
Numbers
I would say eight is ideal. Eight is enough to kill Missile Turrets quickly (as discussed in the opening section) and to one-shot Marines and Medics. Often times you will end up with nine Mutalisks simply because you have three Larvae at three Hatcheries. Once your numbers fall below 4, you can no long snipe Marines and need to change your game plan to killing SCVs or simply being annoying rather than targeting the main army.
Should you rebuild Mutalisks or build more than eight (nine)? This honestly depends on the flow of the game, but the simple answer is no. Once you've hit nine Mutalisks, you don't need anymore, and building more than that won't help much. If you opened with a two Hatch build, you may want to add Mutalisks, simply because two Hatch builds generally require great damage to make up for their lack of economy. If my two Hatch Mutalisk build was dealing damage and my opponent had no Turrets, I would make non-stop Mutalisks. If he had 4 Turrets up per base and a small army, I wouldn't bother - the economic damage has already been dealt by forcing him to make Turrets. Adding Mutalisks isn't going to deal any more damage.
Upgrades
Don't upgrade Mutalisks, it's not worth it. In the unlikely event you are fighting Terran metal, upgrade carapace.
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Protoss
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Target
Your target against Protoss is undoubtedly the Probes. Cannons are not strong against groups of more than 8 Mutalisks, so don't fear unprotected Cannons. Once the Cannons are dead, target Probes while dodging Archons. Keep an eye out for fresh Templar warping in that can be easily picked off. Don't bother with hearty buildings like the Templar Archive. If you had enough time to kill a building like that, you've only let the player come back into the game, as he has undoubtedly added several Cannons to his supply lines now.
Archons
Over Battle.net, you generally shouldn't do it. But there are a few times when it's not a bad idea to go after an Archon, and I'll break these into two groups:
The first, is engaging an Archon. You would want to do this when the mineral line is well defended, but the main base isn't. If you can kill the roaming Archon, you have free access to kill Gateways and tech buildings, as well as any new Templar that warp in. To do this, simply spread your Mutalisks as much as possible and engage. I always like to send one Mutalisks in first and run it past, ensure my grouped Mutalisks aren't taking splash damage until I have them spread. Obviously any decent player is going to target a clumped group of Mutalisks, so get them spread as soon as possible. If the Archon begins to run, give chase, while avoiding clumping back up again.
The second situation is sniping an Archon. This works similarly to fighting Marines - fly straight at it, fire and retreat before entering the Archons range. You can do this at any time, but it only makes sense to do it from above a cliff or when the Archon is having trouble getting through a Probe line.
Corsairs
Fighting Corsairs is similar to fighting an Archon head on. Lead with a Mutalisk and run it past the group of Corsairs to allow your grouped Mutalisks to avoid taking splash damage. Spread your Mutalisks around the Corsairs and target them one by one. If you want to be cute, run damaged Mutalisks away and return them to the battle after another Mutalisks has been targeted by the Corsairs. If you are going to Scourge the Corsairs, Make sure the Scourge are either spread out or cloned, and always attack from a different direction than the Corsairs are firing to avoid losing valuable Scourge to splash damage.
Always upgrade carapace against Corsairs.
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In Closing
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As I said, if you feel anything at all is wrong or needs a better explanation, let me know. This is a living guide and is definitely not set in stone. I suppose the Terran guide should be longer but it's kind of intuitive and I ran out of steam writing that part last.
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Further Resources
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http://sc.gosugamers.net/thread/142563 - GG.net thread about Mutalisks against Scourge using patrol.
I will add the Mutalisk micro training maps once I return.
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Nice guide, thanks!
+B.net lag is teh sux for mutas =[
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United States42225 Posts
Google believes that scourges is the plural for scourge.
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very nice writeup Chill <3
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Excellent write-up. You might want to add that right-clicking minerals helps grouping as well
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Grouping also works well with a trapped zergling.
Early-game Mutalisks are harassment units and should be used as such. They should never directly engage an army. Their strength lies in their mobility, picking off stray units, workers and buildings.
I agree...but only when the mutas are alone. Muta/ling in the right situations is very strong against m&m/goliaths/goons/hydras.
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Was this made because we beat that Mutalisk Control map several nights ago -_-;;;
GJ however 
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Calgary25970 Posts
It was made because watching you guys Muta micro was painful. j/k <3
On August 31 2007 04:23 LxRogue wrote:
Grouping also works well with a trapped zergling.
I didn't include little tricks like this beacuse they're not practical.
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On August 31 2007 04:41 Chill wrote:
It was made because watching you guys Muta micro was painful. j/k <3
You are so imba on mutal micro > . <
Nice guide btw.
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On August 31 2007 04:41 Chill wrote:It was made because watching you guys Muta micro was painful. j/k <3 Show nested quote +On August 31 2007 04:23 LxRogue wrote:
Grouping also works well with a trapped zergling.
I didn't include little tricks like this beacuse they're not practical.
Sure it is. If you have a little group of lings, group the mutas with one in the center that can't escape.
So if you don't like having an ovie drifting around, or if you have ovie speed, this can work better.
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On August 31 2007 04:50 EpiK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2007 04:41 Chill wrote:
It was made because watching you guys Muta micro was painful. j/k <3
You are so imba on mutal micro > . < Nice guide btw.
Hahaha I have to agree ^_^
Chill + slained = UMS imba team -_-;;
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
god there is no worse feeling in the world than being harassed by muta when you aren't prepared for it
it's just like 5 minutes of total frustration as you know that the zerg has expanded like eighty times in the meantime, and probably has fifty 5-3 ultras already waiting at his nat, and he's just mocking you by continuing to torture you with his mutas that DO NOT DIE
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nice guide, you left out the tactic of using mutas to conceal a few scourges in their group and blindside vessels.
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Calgary25970 Posts
On August 31 2007 04:55 LxRogue wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2007 04:41 Chill wrote:It was made because watching you guys Muta micro was painful. j/k <3 On August 31 2007 04:23 LxRogue wrote:
Grouping also works well with a trapped zergling.
I didn't include little tricks like this beacuse they're not practical. Sure it is. If you have a little group of lings, group the mutas with one in the center that can't escape. So if you don't like having an ovie drifting around, or if you have ovie speed, this can work better.
This is your definition of practical? Putting 4 Lings in a corner and grouping with one of them?
No.
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On August 31 2007 04:59 GrandInquisitor wrote:
god there is no worse feeling in the world than being harassed by muta when you aren't prepared for it
it's just like 5 minutes of total frustration as you know that the zerg has expanded like eighty times in the meantime, and probably has fifty 5-3 ultras already waiting at his nat, and he's just mocking you by continuing to torture you with his mutas that DO NOT DIE
OR at the end he retreats his mutas and you see guardians above the cliffs meanwhile, while he is rushing through your choke with his dark swarm and ultra/ling stuff 
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United States42225 Posts
On August 31 2007 04:23 LxRogue wrote:
Grouping also works well with a trapped zergling.
What about a burrowed ling?
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Calgary25970 Posts
On August 31 2007 05:04 .dragoon wrote:
nice guide, you left out the tactic of using mutas to conceal a few scourges in their group and blindside vessels.
I've literally never seen this. As in hiding Scourge under Mutalisks? Umm O_o
I've seen using Mutalisks or Zerglings to hate hits so the Scourge can get in.
On August 31 2007 05:08 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2007 04:23 LxRogue wrote:
Grouping also works well with a trapped zergling.
What about a burrowed ling?
Waste of 100 gas.
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Nothing really new as you said, but good reference material! Maybe we will get a TL strategy-database (TLSD?) going eventually.
nOOb: OMG my mutas dies but I want to be July!!
seasoned TL-veteran: Search --> [ url=chills thread]Nice muta-guide[ /url]
Good job, and I like how you focus on what is actually viable for mortals on bnet.
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If you want to add to the muta vs muta upgrade argument, many players use overlords with their muta fights as well (late game usually) they with their armor upgrade can help sponge up more splash damage.
Also Scourge only benefit from carapace obviously.
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Calgary25970 Posts
Thanks, updated Zerg Overlords and Zerg Upgrades section.
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On August 31 2007 05:05 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2007 04:55 LxRogue wrote:On August 31 2007 04:41 Chill wrote:It was made because watching you guys Muta micro was painful. j/k <3 On August 31 2007 04:23 LxRogue wrote:
Grouping also works well with a trapped zergling.
I didn't include little tricks like this beacuse they're not practical. Sure it is. If you have a little group of lings, group the mutas with one in the center that can't escape. So if you don't like having an ovie drifting around, or if you have ovie speed, this can work better. This is your definition of practical? Putting 4 Lings in a corner and grouping with one of them? No. The majority of todays map allows you to trap a ling behind the minerals with the help of only one other ling. That's a total of 2 and imo far better than having the wierd overlord flying around.
11mutas can 2hit-kill a turret, the last 2hp will burn down before the third attack can be completed.
11mutas will one-hit a stimmed marine with their bounce (even if the first marine dies after 4attacks all 11 will bounce if they hit at the same time, bouncing with buildings works too).
A third method on how to kill scourges that are chasing you:
http://sc.gosugamers.net/thread/142563
Also, there's a zvz late game technique known as the scourge bomb. You order all your mutas to follow a scourge and then fly the scourge into your opponent.
Ideally the scourge should absorb the first wave of fire from your opponent and your mutas should come perfectly stacked up. Theoretically it sounds good (and looks cool!), whether is efficient in practice is arguable. Was long time since I last looked into it.
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In ZvZ Muta vs. Hydra shouldn't you upgrade attack for mutas not armor? At least... I think I remember reading this from a reliable source. It makes sense hydras have 80 life so doing 10 damage is a big advantage to 9. And I don't see why 1 armor would be more helpful. I don't think i'm wrong but if I am enlighten me.
edit: Since hydras deal explosive dmg 1 armor doesn't make a significant difference to the amoutn of damage the muta can absorb and the +1 dmg to 10 makes it easier/more effective to pick off drones or hydras running in a straight line.
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Calgary25970 Posts
Jonoman92, you are wrong. you want your Mutas to absorb damage, and Zerglings to deal damage.
LegenD, Never heard of that Scourge bomb... I'll try it out later
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Armor only reduces hydralisk damage by 0.5, on the otherside he's likely to have more hydras than you have mutas. Twice as many? Dunno. Attack is also more efficient vs spores and it boosts the bounce slightly.
I'd go with attack, becouse it's cheaper.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
Excellent thread! There's always been 2 things about muta micro that I've wanted to know about for a long time.
The first one was the way progamers seem to snipe scourges when the mutas are being chased. It's weird because the Chinese version is to circle and angle and attack, while the pros don't. Their mutas simply stop at the same time, turn, attack and move on, but this happens in extremely quick succession. I've wondered for a long time how this is done and no one was able to explain it (in other threads) but I believe the GG.net thread posted by ZerG~LegenD might be it. Although I wonder if it works on bnet.
The second one was the split damage. In ZvT, you will often see skilled muta users micro against marines, shoot at the marines about twice (each shot killing 1 rine) and then a 3rd shot that kills about 3~5 rines at once. There are two theories to this, one is that the marines simply accumulated bounce shots over the time and the 3rd bounce killed them... but if you watch closely, the mutalisks seem to attack at different targets. I'm guess it has to do with patrol. There's a chance the same method as explained in the GGnet thread is used again for this. I need to test this out.
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Nice writeup! It's a great combo of how to use muta's in most situations people would come across. I've found it very informative. Thanks Chill
Definitely recommended :p
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
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Attack is definitely the way to go versus hydras, they're getting armor anyway.
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about the math
without upgrades:
9 + 3 + 1 = 13
with attack:
10 + 3.33 + 1.11 = 14.44
with armor
8 + 1.67 + 0.5 = 10.17
that's 1.44 to 2.83, almost double
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On August 31 2007 04:41 Chill wrote:It was made because watching you guys Muta micro was painful. j/k <3 Show nested quote +On August 31 2007 04:23 LxRogue wrote:
Grouping also works well with a trapped zergling.
I didn't include little tricks like this beacuse they're not practical.
I just was watching the China WCG reps (you can dl them at GG.net) and MYM.F91 used this exact trick to micro his mutas. He trapped a ling using 2 lings in combination with his ramp on PA (he was at North position.) It's probably extra useful on a map like PA where it wouln't take long for your ovies to run into death... That game was vs TR_Shine ZvT
So yes, it can be practical.
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On August 31 2007 06:02 Chill wrote:
Jonoman92, you are wrong.
No, you are wrong. About this and the attack upgrade vs hydras....
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How about the following situations:
ZvT going mass mutas vs. gols - Which upgrade to get. Is it like what you said vs. hydras, where you go carapace to soak damage, melee attack on lings to deal damage?
ZvT going guardian rush - not a super strong strat, but I think it's major enough to include this. What to upgrade, attack or carapace? My intuition says weapon so that you kill marines faster.
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On August 31 2007 07:27 Live2Win wrote:
The first one was the way progamers seem to snipe scourges when the mutas are being chased. It's weird because the Chinese version is to circle and angle and attack, while the pros don't. Their mutas simply stop at the same time, turn, attack and move on, but this happens in extremely quick succession. I've wondered for a long time how this is done and no one was able to explain it (in other threads) but I believe the GG.net thread posted by ZerG~LegenD might be it. Although I wonder if it works on bnet.
I wanted to address this point as well. I've actually been messing around with Muta vs Scourge for a bit and I've been able to pretty much get results like the pros (instead of mutas being around 2 muta length away from the scourge, I can get the muta to turn around and hit the scourge at around 3/4 muta length away and still be able to run away safely from the rest of the pack). I think the Chinese technique is the basis of what pros use but they are missing one little key that seem to make the muta attack faster, the position of the patrol click. When I was dicking around with the a muta vs scourge map, it seemed to me that the muta attack much faster if you patrol click close to them (close as in really close, almost right on the mutas). Try this on the muta vs scourge maps: once you do the 1st click (~90 degrees) to make the muta turn, immediately p+click just behind the mutas themselves and you'll find that the mutas almost instantly turn, attack and are free to move again instead of making a small loop. I actually found this out cause I tried to individually target each scourge (with patrol... I was being stupid -.-zz).
The GG.net technique doesn't seem to work for me cause the mutas take a lot more time to accelerate if you don't guide them by turning them. I think the key points really to the micro is turning (getting the muta to turn a bit first so they don't slow down), and positioning of the click so they attack as fast as possible.
Edit: About the part of muta vs hydra, the point of muta vs hydra isn't for mutas to kill the hydras cause straight up hydras will beat mutas. The point is for the mutas to take the damage while your ground ling army rapes his hydras. Mutaling isn't about mutas killing stuff, it's about lings owning stuff up cause they're so imbalanced and do too much damage.
I also made a little clip of muta vs scourge. It's basically the Chinese technique but applied for scourge at close distance. I tried to let the scourge get as close as possible so I could demonstrate it but I suck so I got hit a lot... hopefully it shows what I was trying to say
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=7CFD2A5B265CED16
You'll see that patrol close up works a lot better on scourge that are closer to you but against scourge that are farther away your mutas will just turn around and act stupid (I do it in the video) so I think patrol closer to the mutas when the scourge are close and farther away when the scourge are farther should do the trick.
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On August 31 2007 09:32 Purind wrote:
How about the following situations:
ZvT going mass mutas vs. gols - Which upgrade to get. Is it like what you said vs. hydras, where you go carapace to soak damage, melee attack on lings to deal damage?
ZvT going guardian rush - not a super strong strat, but I think it's major enough to include this. What to upgrade, attack or carapace? My intuition says weapon so that you kill marines faster. armor for sure against gols,
with guardian rush, do you even have time to upgrade? i mean you do have to get your greater spire asap. i dunno chill will know he's the definition of scrubby newb guard rusher
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On August 31 2007 06:02 Chill wrote:
Jonoman92, you are wrong. you want your Mutas to absorb damage, and Zerglings to deal damage.
never never never upg muta carapace vs hydra except if u playing air map
but hydra on air maps are no thx
but again if happen u will go dual spire vs dual evo/spire
so it will end 3-3 mutal vs 3-3hydra ?-3 devourer
on ground maps:
letz take situation
a) playing 1base mutal vs 1base hydra = upg +1 attack mutal and if u want +1 attack ling ,hydra player will put carapace first or dual if he have good timing
b) playing ?? base mutal vs ?? base hydra = upg +1 mutal if u want go fast guardian / swarm
if u play map where u cant use guard or guard doing little dmg and cant afford you fast win
then i will skip mutal upg and make dual evo hydra upg cuz u will need good positioned lurkers to keep up with hydra player
if u can manage to take map control again then i will back to muta attack upg so u can control both ground and air
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On August 31 2007 09:54 yubee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2007 09:32 Purind wrote:
How about the following situations:
ZvT going mass mutas vs. gols - Which upgrade to get. Is it like what you said vs. hydras, where you go carapace to soak damage, melee attack on lings to deal damage?
ZvT going guardian rush - not a super strong strat, but I think it's major enough to include this. What to upgrade, attack or carapace? My intuition says weapon so that you kill marines faster. armor for sure against gols, with guardian rush, do you even have time to upgrade? i mean you do have to get your greater spire asap. i dunno chill will know he's the definition of scrubby newb guard rusher
1hat and 2hat fast lurk build with mutal switching are good for +1attack timing guards
2 hat gas or 2 hat gas + hat are letz say 50/50 or less vs expirienced terrans
going +1 mutal attack with 3 hat no pressure/dmg to terran is just waste of gas and free kills for vessels
monty hall and 815 are only map nowdays where u can do 3 hat +1muta and keep up with terran
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Calgary25970 Posts
I'm leaving for vacation, I'll update this guide when I return on the 10th.
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dancing has always referred to dragoon micro and any micro like it. the moving shot was never dancing
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chill u are the man!!!!!!!!!! a real strategy post, damn it was nice to read it. keep it up dude!
i like 11 mutas btw, unlike marines with no range upgrade, the turret has a really long range and everytime u engage u take about 1-2 hits from all the turrets in range, the damage add up as terran builds more turrets, so from a pure micro standpoint 2 shot kill on a turret means u take a lot less of damage on ur mutas, especially when u are engaging like 8+ turrets.
but of course in a real fight if terran built that many i'll just laugh and make lurkers instead....still, just the fact that 11 mutas' splash damage can kill stimmed marines is worth the 2 extra mutas. teach those silly terrans who think a group of 12 marines with 2 medics is invunarable to mutas ^^
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Thanks for this guide, it has answered many questions that I've had since I started playing. Awesome work.
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Question about mutaling attack, do you send mutas first to soak up damage or lings first since there are more of them?
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
I forgot to mention, Thanks a whole bunch Chill for writing this. I'm sure hundreds of users will appreciate it in the future.
As for the Muta vs Scourge thing. arc_man, for me when I messed around with the GGnet muta vs scourge map, it worked fairly well. In fact I was able to kill all scourges w/o a single hit.
Even on Bnet, I tried it and there were times I was able to get almost all the scourges (I could have actually, but I was messing around wiht the last scourge and got hit on accident)
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On August 31 2007 05:08 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2007 04:23 LxRogue wrote:
Grouping also works well with a trapped zergling.
What about a burrowed ling?
Burrowed ling works, but I doubt you'd research Burrow JUST for the purpose of making your Mutalisk stack -_-;;;
Unless you've already researched it to surprise Transports or something with Hydralisks or to do a Zergling backstab in ZvT or something.
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does muta micro and wraith micro share the same concept? like group an scv with wraiths instead of ovie with mutas?
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Great guide. One important thing is, if you're sniping then pulling away, you have to right click move within range of the unit or units you're targeting then attack move or right click target or else your mutas won't fire. Also, I think attack move + left click is much much better than right click.
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On August 31 2007 13:02 Superiorwolf wrote:
Question about mutaling attack, do you send mutas first to soak up damage or lings first since there are more of them?
Always, always, always mutas first. If your lings are ahead at all, they'll just die.
The closer together, the better, but mutas always have to be in front.
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I have a question....sometimes I just tell the mutas to hold behind a mineral line that is hard to defend, but they end up just sitting there, not attacking. Is it because they have been hit by a unit that is out of range? Any solutions?
edit: ok, this kind of answers the question, but still a little confusing:
On August 31 2007 14:27 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Great guide. One important thing is, if you're sniping then pulling away, you have to right click move within range of the unit or units you're targeting then attack move or right click target or else your mutas won't fire. Also, I think attack move + left click is much much better than right click.
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Enlightening guide, well written, thank you.
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If you play pure muta vs pure goliaths like savior did when he lost to boxer, shouldnt attack upgrades be better then since the goliaths one-hit-damage is much higher than the mutalisks?
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can someone upload the muta micro ums please
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On August 31 2007 18:41 DrainX wrote:
If you play pure muta vs pure goliaths like savior did when he lost to boxer, shouldnt attack upgrades be better then since the goliaths one-hit-damage is much higher than the mutalisks?
Goliaths damage works just like zealots, it's two hits that together deal full damage. Therefor armor is twice as effective as usual.
The gg.net thread also accounts for b.net latency. It is well described there how to work with it. I myself never managed to master it, so I just gave up. Spore to counter scourges ftw! 
Anyway, in zvz attack upgrade for muttas is to be prefered in certain situations. It can be used for increasing an advantage while you still don't want to spend lots of extra resources on a second armor or even a first one, but only if you know your opponent won't be upgrading. Also, vs a ling scourge user attack is of course the obvious choice, as well as someone sporing up like mad.
Some questions I have about muttalisks upgrades, specifically about bounce damage.
If I upgrade my muttalisks with +1 attack, they will in theory deal 10, 3.33, 1.11 dmg. How does this work out in practice? Everyone who recieves the first bounce gets 3 dmg the two first times and 4 the last? like invisible 0.33 that stack up until it hits a full 1 dmg? Or does it simply only 3 dmg all the time?
And with armor, if I face unupgraded muttalisks and upgrade one armor on mine, they will in theory do 8, 2, 0 dmg. But will it actually deal 0 dmg on last bounce? I remember hearing somewhere that the smallest amount of damage possibly dealt is 0.5 (1dmg every second hit). So will it in practice turn out to be 8, 2, 0.5?
zulu_nation, you will find the muttalisk vs scourge micro map in the gg.net thread on this: http://sc.gosugamers.net/thread/142563
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very nice guide, you basically brought it all up. gj dude.
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On August 31 2007 13:02 Superiorwolf wrote:
Question about mutaling attack, do you send mutas first to soak up damage or lings first since there are more of them?
both should arrive at the same time, the more units arriving at the same time the more enemy damage will be spread out, letting all of ur units to live longer. its why we flank: when u attack from multiple directions more of ur units can arrive at the same time to spread out enemy damage and maximize ur own. if a ling gets locked on first it'll die fast but it doesn't matter, as soon as the attacker locks onto a muta it'll take some time before the attack can be switched to something else (time to kill the muta), that time frame is what ppl mean by saying mutas soak up the damage while lings do damage. sending in mutas first will cost u to take unnecessary damage on the mutas cuz u have less units and thus less spread of enemy fire, the time between ur mutas get hit and ur lings arrive is a window where u are taking more damage and doing less damage back, chances are ur mutas might die too fast for ur lings to finish the job. so what if 3-4 lings died before ur mutas started to take damage, they are still the main damage soakers and the lings after the initial dead ones will do the damage.
unless u have insufficient lings and u really need all of them to be alive and attacking, i wouldn't recommand sending mutas in first, but if i don't have enough lings i wouldn't attack anyway.
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On August 31 2007 07:27 Live2Win wrote:
The second one was the split damage. In ZvT, you will often see skilled muta users micro against marines, shoot at the marines about twice (each shot killing 1 rine) and then a 3rd shot that kills about 3~5 rines at once. There are two theories to this, one is that the marines simply accumulated bounce shots over the time and the 3rd bounce killed them... but if you watch closely, the mutalisks seem to attack at different targets. I'm guess it has to do with patrol. There's a chance the same method as explained in the GGnet thread is used again for this. I need to test this out.
When you see that happend in replays it's almost always patrol. Using patrol works great over lan and is muc heasier to use than singel targeting but if you try to do it online it screws up (only happens when you're under fire) for some reason which is unknown to me.
However, it is fully possible to kill rines with the bounce.
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Also, alot of people argue that you should use attackmove+leftclick instead of a right click. However, when sniping stuff (that can retilate) online their argument doesn't hold.
Sure mutas will attack even if you missclick, but the time it takes for them to do so is so long that half your group will be dead before you're out fo fire again. In case you missclick online you has to abort the attack, no matter what method you're using.
Right clicking only requires you to use your mouse, and is theoreticaly quicker. However, in practice it all comes down to what you're used to. But if you still isn't used to any method or does't feel really (un)confortable with either it's better to learn right clicking. At least if you're an online gamer.
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Attack+left click feels more accurate for me.. that circle with a dot in it makes it feel as if I take proper aim, whereas right click feels like I can miss anytime. I do both though, but generally attack command feels better..
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Great guide, Chill. I don't play zerg but it was a very interesting read. I'm sure alot of players will benefit from it.
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On August 31 2007 09:44 ArC_man wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2007 07:27 Live2Win wrote:
The first one was the way progamers seem to snipe scourges when the mutas are being chased. It's weird because the Chinese version is to circle and angle and attack, while the pros don't. Their mutas simply stop at the same time, turn, attack and move on, but this happens in extremely quick succession. I've wondered for a long time how this is done and no one was able to explain it (in other threads) but I believe the GG.net thread posted by ZerG~LegenD might be it. Although I wonder if it works on bnet.
I wanted to address this point as well. I've actually been messing around with Muta vs Scourge for a bit and I've been able to pretty much get results like the pros (instead of mutas being around 2 muta length away from the scourge, I can get the muta to turn around and hit the scourge at around 3/4 muta length away and still be able to run away safely from the rest of the pack). I think the Chinese technique is the basis of what pros use but they are missing one little key that seem to make the muta attack faster, the position of the patrol click. When I was dicking around with the a muta vs scourge map, it seemed to me that the muta attack much faster if you patrol click close to them (close as in really close, almost right on the mutas). Try this on the muta vs scourge maps: once you do the 1st click (~90 degrees) to make the muta turn, immediately p+click just behind the mutas themselves and you'll find that the mutas almost instantly turn, attack and are free to move again instead of making a small loop. I actually found this out cause I tried to individually target each scourge (with patrol... I was being stupid -.-zz). The GG.net technique doesn't seem to work for me cause the mutas take a lot more time to accelerate if you don't guide them by turning them. I think the key points really to the micro is turning (getting the muta to turn a bit first so they don't slow down), and positioning of the click so they attack as fast as possible. Edit: About the part of muta vs hydra, the point of muta vs hydra isn't for mutas to kill the hydras cause straight up hydras will beat mutas. The point is for the mutas to take the damage while your ground ling army rapes his hydras. Mutaling isn't about mutas killing stuff, it's about lings owning stuff up cause they're so imbalanced and do too much damage. I also made a little clip of muta vs scourge. It's basically the Chinese technique but applied for scourge at close distance. I tried to let the scourge get as close as possible so I could demonstrate it but I suck so I got hit a lot... hopefully it shows what I was trying to say http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=7CFD2A5B265CED16You'll see that patrol close up works a lot better on scourge that are closer to you but against scourge that are farther away your mutas will just turn around and act stupid (I do it in the video) so I think patrol closer to the mutas when the scourge are close and farther away when the scourge are farther should do the trick.
The technique where you patrol click just infrtont of the mutas then click back in the same direction doesn't work on a scorge that has targetted you. It just works vs a scouge that was a click near you and is following you now.
Last night I was practicing the chinese triangle on that scourge map and I think I got it down, but I haven't been able to try it in any live 1:1 games. Will the chinese triangle work on scourges that are targeted on your mutas?
Arc_man will you be on tonight? I would like a partner to practice this with, escpicially since I will be bored of my ass with no iccup.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
A really nice guide, although I've got something to add.
If you watch GGPlay's games vs either Iris or Flash, I can't remember, you can see him doing his muta control somewhat weirdly. He has a large bunch of mutas there, it's likely 11, and he either uses Hold or attack-move to attack with them. Doing so he's able to attack multiple rines per raid, killing 2-3 in a strike. Crazy stuff, but I'm not exactly sure on how it's done.
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Very important to know that mutalisks can't attack marines as efficiently in b net. Therefore your lurker timing has to be faster, alot faster.
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On September 01 2007 18:33 BluzMan wrote:
A really nice guide, although I've got something to add.
If you watch GGPlay's games vs either Iris or Flash, I can't remember, you can see him doing his muta control somewhat weirdly. He has a large bunch of mutas there, it's likely 11, and he either uses Hold or attack-move to attack with them. Doing so he's able to attack multiple rines per raid, killing 2-3 in a strike. Crazy stuff, but I'm not exactly sure on how it's done.
This is very common with all pro-gamers now. You need like 11 mutas or you won't be able to get double kills. All it is is pressing hold position. Doesn't work too well on battlenet however, tho its simply killer on hamachi/lan.
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On September 01 2007 09:03 houseurmusic wrote:
I wanted to address this point as well. I've actually been messing around with Muta vs Scourge for a bit and I've been able to pretty much get results like the pros (instead of mutas being around 2 muta length away from the scourge, I can get the muta to turn around and hit the scourge at around 3/4 muta length away and still be able to run away safely from the rest of the pack). I think the Chinese technique is the basis of what pros use but they are missing one little key that seem to make the muta attack faster, the position of the patrol click. When I was dicking around with the a muta vs scourge map, it seemed to me that the muta attack much faster if you patrol click close to them (close as in really close, almost right on the mutas). Try this on the muta vs scourge maps: once you do the 1st click (~90 degrees) to make the muta turn, immediately p+click just behind the mutas themselves and you'll find that the mutas almost instantly turn, attack and are free to move again instead of making a small loop. I actually found this out cause I tried to individually target each scourge (with patrol... I was being stupid -.-zz).
The technique where you patrol click just infrtont of the mutas then click back in the same direction doesn't work on a scorge that has targetted you. It just works vs a scouge that was a click near you and is following you now.
Of course it works on scourges that are attacking you too, it's just that even if you kill one the next one might catch up. But the chinese triangle is even worse in that matter as it wastes more time standing still/moving in the wrong direction.
To this date there is not one single technique, lan nor bnet, not even in progaming, that allows you to do a fully moving shot at a target behind you without losing any space at all. That however is not an issue unless the scourges are stacked up, as those closest to catching up will be the ones who die.
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On September 02 2007 02:13 ZerG~LegenD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2007 09:03 houseurmusic wrote:
I wanted to address this point as well. I've actually been messing around with Muta vs Scourge for a bit and I've been able to pretty much get results like the pros (instead of mutas being around 2 muta length away from the scourge, I can get the muta to turn around and hit the scourge at around 3/4 muta length away and still be able to run away safely from the rest of the pack). I think the Chinese technique is the basis of what pros use but they are missing one little key that seem to make the muta attack faster, the position of the patrol click. When I was dicking around with the a muta vs scourge map, it seemed to me that the muta attack much faster if you patrol click close to them (close as in really close, almost right on the mutas). Try this on the muta vs scourge maps: once you do the 1st click (~90 degrees) to make the muta turn, immediately p+click just behind the mutas themselves and you'll find that the mutas almost instantly turn, attack and are free to move again instead of making a small loop. I actually found this out cause I tried to individually target each scourge (with patrol... I was being stupid -.-zz).
The technique where you patrol click just infrtont of the mutas then click back in the same direction doesn't work on a scorge that has targetted you. It just works vs a scouge that was a click near you and is following you now.
Of course it works on scourges that are attacking you too, it's just that even if you kill one the next one might catch up. But the chinese triangle is even worse in that matter as it wastes more time standing still/moving in the wrong direction. To this date there is not one single technique, lan nor bnet, not even in progaming, that allows you to do a fully moving shot at a target behind you without losing any space at all. That however is not an issue unless the scourges are stacked up, as those closest to catching up will be the ones who die.
Actually if you do the chinese triangle it correctly it almost does look like the mutas never stop moving. The good thing about the triangle is not only do the mutas attack so quickly it is that the movements trick the scourge'S (jk) AI into moving the wrong direction giving you more space.
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id like to address the "upgrades in zvz"-part
imo it is NOT advisable to get 3 armor before any attack upgrade, imo the right upgrade-order is armor-attack-armor (after that its most likely greater spire, devourers and so on)
the second armor IS more useful then the 1st attack upgrade, but the cost-difference is too big to make the 2nd armor effective in most cases (it may be cost-effective if both of u build up somewhat like 3 groups of muta)
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On September 02 2007 03:21 houseurmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2007 02:13 ZerG~LegenD wrote:On September 01 2007 09:03 houseurmusic wrote:
I wanted to address this point as well. I've actually been messing around with Muta vs Scourge for a bit and I've been able to pretty much get results like the pros (instead of mutas being around 2 muta length away from the scourge, I can get the muta to turn around and hit the scourge at around 3/4 muta length away and still be able to run away safely from the rest of the pack). I think the Chinese technique is the basis of what pros use but they are missing one little key that seem to make the muta attack faster, the position of the patrol click. When I was dicking around with the a muta vs scourge map, it seemed to me that the muta attack much faster if you patrol click close to them (close as in really close, almost right on the mutas). Try this on the muta vs scourge maps: once you do the 1st click (~90 degrees) to make the muta turn, immediately p+click just behind the mutas themselves and you'll find that the mutas almost instantly turn, attack and are free to move again instead of making a small loop. I actually found this out cause I tried to individually target each scourge (with patrol... I was being stupid -.-zz).
The technique where you patrol click just infrtont of the mutas then click back in the same direction doesn't work on a scorge that has targetted you. It just works vs a scouge that was a click near you and is following you now.
Of course it works on scourges that are attacking you too, it's just that even if you kill one the next one might catch up. But the chinese triangle is even worse in that matter as it wastes more time standing still/moving in the wrong direction. To this date there is not one single technique, lan nor bnet, not even in progaming, that allows you to do a fully moving shot at a target behind you without losing any space at all. That however is not an issue unless the scourges are stacked up, as those closest to catching up will be the ones who die. The good thing about the triangle is not only do the mutas attack so quickly it is that the movements trick the scourge'S (jk) AI into moving the wrong direction giving you more space.
No, the silly scourge ai will appear no matter what technique you use, but only vs poorly microed scourges. A well microed scourge do not sugger from silly ai, no matter the techniqure you use.
The chinese triangle (at least the orginal variant, executed at the speed of the orginal video) means you has to fly towards the scourge for a short period of time. If the scourges aren't microed you're fine, their ai will screw up and they too will turn around. But if the scourges are microed they will NOT turn around and you will die.
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Calgary25970 Posts
This guide is supposed to be practical rather than theoretical. That's why I'm not including things like trapped Zerglings. I think that's quite impractical despite who you've seen use it.
Made the following updates:
(GENERAL - TARGETING) To add to this, fight_or_flight asks "I have a question....sometimes I just tell the mutas to hold behind a mineral line that is hard to defend, but they end up just sitting there, not attacking. Is it because they have been hit by a unit that is out of range? Any solutions?"
Yes, if there are enemy fighting units around, your Mutalisks will not attack any non-fighting units or buildings until those fighting units are out of range or dead. This is why giving Mutalisks targets is so important.
(VS ZERG - UPGRADES) Mutalisks are meant to take damage while Zerglings deal the damage. It should be noted that many players have said that they prefer getting Mutalisks attack, while helps in raiding, sniping stray Hydralisks and dealing with Spore Colonies. I disagree; I believe that carapace is necessary for allowing your army to live long enough to let Zerglings engage the Hydralisks and start dealing damage.
(VS ZERG - UPGRADES) It should be mentioned that because damage is counted as either an integer or a half, the numbers won't work out exactly as mentioned above, but it was just to give an example.
(VS ZERG - UPGRADES) It is worth mentioning that some players have said that the cost differential between the second carapace and first attack upgrade make it more reasonable to upgrade attack rather than carapace as your second upgrade. While this may be true, if you are playing a game that is going long enough for you to consider a second upgrade, your Mutalisk numbers should be large enough that one less Mutalisk while you research the second carapace upgrade should not matter. If you are trying to punish your opponent while you have a carapace upgrade and he doesn't (much like Protoss does to Zerg while +1 weapons is finished before carapace), do not research a second upgrade. Time your attack to be maximized as soon as the upgrade completes.
(VS ZERG - SCOURGE) There is some minor debate about attack-move versus patrol when fighting Scourge. The general consensus is that patrol works better if it is placed properly (close to your Mutalisk group). I personally always use attack-move.
I am inexperienced with executing fancy micro against Scourge. There are a few ideas about killing Scourge in this thread (pages 2-4 specifically). You should read the advice offered there and test it on your own. I will mention, again, that if you have the advantage against a Scourge user, things will be much easier if you simply amass Mutalisks before attacking rather than engaging with a low number of Mutalisks. Mutalisk against Scourge micro is among the hardest in Starcraft, and the latency of Battle.net does not make it any easier.
(VS TERRAN - UPGRADES) In the unlikely event you are fighting Terran metal, upgrade carapace.
(END)**************
Further Resources
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http://sc.gosugamers.net/thread/142563 - GG.net thread about Mutalisks against Scourge using patrol.
I will add the Mutalisk micro training maps once I return.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
hmmm, maybe a muta/dev guide to fighting sair/reav (like correct ratios, upgrades, timing, etc.) or is that too far away from the original point of the topic?
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On September 05 2007 22:40 Chill wrote:
This guide is supposed to be practical rather than theoretical. That's why I'm not including things like trapped Zerglings. Then why not add it? Theoretical the ol is much better, but many players won't be able to keep it fully under control and losing it only once every 4 games or so would be far worse than making 2 extra lings. Hell, losing an ol with the wrong timing could cost you 8 lurkers, or the entire game in other words.
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Great thread on mutalisk micro. Make this sticky please!
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On August 31 2007 04:41 Chill wrote:
I didn't include little tricks like this beacuse they're not practical.
How about a burrowed zergling?
EDIT: kwark beat me to it.
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great guide, great read !
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Good writeup chill, really proud of you my young one.
For those of you wondering how to do the muta vs scourge using patrol, here are some instructions:
1) group mutas with 1 overlord (or larva or ling - who cares)
2) *scourge come*-- Run away mutalisks from scourge
3) use the mutas (grouped with whatever) then click patrol right in front of the mutalisk group OR the leading mutalisk.
NOTE: you will see your mutalisks hitting scourge at this point,but you need them to run away to not get killed by the rest of the scourge.So...
4) Click somewhere away from the mutalisk (not in the direction of the scourge)
5) If there are still scourge, go back to 1 and restart.
If you are good and fast enough, you can skip steps 4-5 and just use patrol again and kill more scourge.
I made this small fpvod on the muta vs scourge map. Download it here.
Also, vs terran:
When you're trying to kill off 2-3 marines close to you, you should use the hold technique. You send your muta group right click close to the marine group then quickly click hold and run away your mutas. When you have 9-11 mutas, you can usually kill 2 or even 3 marines at the same time, because the damage is spread among the marines. This can be also very useful on maps with a lot of small traveling paths such as peaks where you can hit the marines coming through the small openings in the middle of the map.
If you want to pick off scvs or specific marines, you should use the more common approach which is right click the marine or scv. This also applies to the turret. You use the hit-and-run technique to kill the units. Even if you miss the unit, you have time to click back and run away your mutalisks. Don't worry about it.
Ah, also, don't waste your mutalisks, the're the most useful scouting units and bring plenty of joy!
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Lol, single player =)
The technique was developed wiht bnet in mind and isn't supposed to work over lan/in single player. But it seems you found a way around that problem by patolclicking closer to your mutas.
Either way, over lan you can do basicly any technique (patrol,hold, single targeting) and it will still work. That technique is special as it works just as good online.
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it works also online... if you want I can do it online too I'll make it later on and repost it. I have it in a couple of replays too... I did it in single player because of the speed factor.
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Don't bother. I created the technique, I know how to do it.
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this is a great muta micro map
http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62974
Thread made recently. I susgest adding it into the OP.
And the reason that spread mutalisks beat stacked mutalisks in a strait up battle is that if they are spread the muta splash might only buonce to 1 target, but if there stacked it will definitly hit 3 (the maximum) meaning you lose. However stacking, then dancing your mutas and picking focus firing mutas is the benefit of stacking, there is a negative and postiive to both sides.
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Didn't realize i was bumpign this like 4 months, saw a link to it in a closed thread and read the entire thing.
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I don't think it would be a problem, you provided a map and some people may have not seen this thread yet.
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thanks man very useful, i've really learned alot on how to use mutalisk effectively :p
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Wow this is great.
Except I thought it was always a good idea to upgrade attack when going ZvT since w/o attack it takes 5 to snipe a marine, while with attack it only takes 4.
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Waste of min/gas. And by the time the upgrade finishes mutas would be useless. And why use money on upgrades when you make only like 9 mutas. Mutas arent used in zvt for an attacking unit. Mostly used for harassing and to buy time.
Edit. I cant believe i miss this thread. Finished reading. Finally understood why my mutas stopped while attacking. They have to be moving and have to attack where they are facing.
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Sorry if this has been ask (scanned first few pages and didn't see it) Ensare in a muta/muta fight, as all i didnt use queens at all then i saw a ZvZ pro Video and there were multiple times when ensare was used to slow and kill running muta, is it worth it? ive used it in my games but i am very low skill level and so is my training buddy (it worked well)
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On November 29 2007 12:13 Zergaphobia wrote:
Sorry if this has been ask (scanned first few pages and didn't see it) Ensare in a muta/muta fight, as all i didnt use queens at all then i saw a ZvZ pro Video and there were multiple times when ensare was used to slow and kill running muta, is it worth it? ive used it in my games but i am very low skill level and so is my training buddy (it worked well)
It is not worth it because you need to spend over 300 gas to get to this tech and use it, have more micro, and wait a long time to have the perfect timing to execute it. zvz is all about 1 small thing that can help you secure the game.
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In the ZvZ part it said:
When you upgrade attack, dmg becomes 10, 3.33, 1.11, essentially an increase of 1.44 damage; however, when fighting an opponent who instead upgraded carapace, each of those hits gets reduced by 1, meaning it would become 9, 2.33, 0.11. The carapace-upgrade Mutalisks are taking 1.56 less damage per attack.
Im pretty new but i think i remember reading that an attack cant do less than 0.5 dmg, so if this is right the carapace mutas take only 1.17 dmg less. And in that case attack up would be more useful?
First post so, hey everyone ^^
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Well,
10+3.33+1.11=14.44, 14.44-(9+3+1)=1.44 (The extra damage added from 0-1 when fighting 0-0)
8+(9/3)-1+(9/9)-1=10, 13-10=3 (The damage reduction from 1-0 when fighting 0-0)
(9+1-1)+(9+1)/3-1+0.5=11.83 (The damage of a 0-1 muta fighting 1-0 mutas)
9+3+1=13 (The damage of a 1-0 muta fighting 0-1 mutas)
That would be the stats with the classic method. However, I'm not sure whether you subtract the armor before or after the bounce reduction, in the case of explosive damage the armor is withdrawn before the exposive reduction. If that was the case for muta bounce then both grades would provide equal boosts. Anyone has ever tried it out?
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8+(9/3)-1+(9/9)-1=10, 13-10=3 (The damage reduction from 1-0 when fighting 0-0)
this is wrong because (9/3)-1 = 2 and (9/9)-1 = 0.5 (because its the lowest damage possible.)
8+(9/3)-1+(9/9)-1=10.5, 13-10.5=2.5, so yeah its better, but not by as much as ure calculation said.
but anyway id assume both players would upgrade their mutas so they wouldnt fight 1-0 or 0-1 vs 0-0
1 atk vs 1 def is 9+2.33+0.5 (not 0.11) =11.83 (not 11.44)
1 def vs 1 atk is 13 dmg so i admit defeat, but get the math right.
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Calgary25970 Posts
It should be mentioned that because damage is counted as either an integer or a half, the numbers won't work out exactly as mentioned above, but it was just to give an example.
I mean, if you want to do the exact math go ahead, but any way you calculate it getting Carapace is better.
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Whats cloning, is it just right clicking a unit with the scourge. I'm very new.
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Calgary25970 Posts
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It's shift deselecting a unit from your group after you have told that group to do an action so that that single unit(or possibly more than one(i.e scourges killing a vessel)) will complete it's action and you can tell the rest of the group to do something else. It is done because it is faster than selecting one unit at a time manually.
Ex. You clone 2 scourges to kill a vessel in ZvT, then clone another 2 to kill a seperate one, repeat. (so there are many groups of 2 scourges that will target different vessels, using your scourge more efficiently
or
TvZ, cloning irradiates on lurkers/ultrlisks/defilers/etc
even
cloning psionic storms, cloning workers when you send some from one base to another(clone them, telling them to mine different mineral patches)
or
laying spider mines
etc
Hope that helps.
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Russian Federation25 Posts
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hey, noob question. lets say you grouped a overlord with the mutas and now that ol is in harms way/too close. you deselect it. is there anyway to make a new control group with those mutas harassin in the enemy base + an overlord in your base without sending all the mutas back to your base?
edit: basically adding a unit to a control group
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Belgium8305 Posts
have the mutas selected, shift + left click on the new overlord and it will be added to the selection, ctrl + # to make a new group out of it and there you are
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On March 03 2009 23:57 mr.fuglies wrote:
hey, noob question. lets say you grouped a overlord with the mutas and now that ol is in harms way/too close. you deselect it. is there anyway to make a new control group with those mutas harassin in the enemy base + an overlord in your base without sending all the mutas back to your base?
edit: basically adding a unit to a control group
I figured if you don't like to hotkey your overlord(s) and give command every now and then to send them back to the base, having two ovs hotkeyed and switching them after some time. I don't know how the efficiency of this though (not a zerg player).
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I can't believe I've never seen this. I think this will really help my ZvZ.
Thanks a lot Chill.
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So do you just press the overlord a couple times till looks like 1 muta? i keep spamming it and they never really fully group they start spreading as i fly
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No, you make a control group with your mutas and one overlord, you then move the group around and the mutas will clump as they fly. If you're moving around too close to the overlord they might not clump. This is all based on the "magic box" mechanic.
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so you're saying one click to the overlord is enough with 12 mutas and then fly around a bit right?
Or are you saying group 12 units with one being an overlord?
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you don't click to the overlord. You have the overlord in a group with the mutas. then fly the mutas around somewhere where the overlord isn't.
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On April 17 2009 10:11 MamiyaOtaru wrote:
you don't click to the overlord. You have the overlord in a group with the mutas. then fly the mutas around somewhere where the overlord isn't.
Oh i see but wouldnt the ol slowly follow the mutas each time?
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Yes, that's why you have to switch ovies every once in a while.
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nice write up and sorry for my ignorance but what is cloning scourges =D?
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Chill, you should link the KNF about attacking from the left
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EPT
