Some years ago most of Terrans were starting TvZ games with M&Ms and then switching to machinery (vultures with mines and tanks). TvZ games were extremely difficult for Zergs at that time. Why did Terrans stop using this successful strategy? Please explain and maybe attach VODs.

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Ivory Coast856 Posts

October 26 2021 11:41 GMT

They still do sometimes when doing the valkyrie build

konadora

Singapore66357 Posts

October 26 2021 14:11 GMT

i feel like its because of the modern maps, which doesnt make for good TvZ late mechanic builds. hard to defend 3rd base (largo, polypoid, etc) and very open mids.

tankgirl

Canada427 Posts

October 26 2021 15:11 GMT

all u need 2 know is in the last 2mins of this VOD

radley

Poland582 Posts

October 26 2021 18:14 GMT

I feel like marines openings are waste of economy nowadays, given the amount of crazy zerg variations on ladder. I prefer to play some eco mech builds, lately fast cc into 2 fact speed vult + science vessel. which is nice vs muta openings but can be hard to execute properly. Only after that I sometimes switch to mm + 2 fact tanks, which is reaction to mass hydra / lurk followups (generaly late hive builds).

Crimson)S(hadow

Philippines594 Posts

October 26 2021 20:07 GMT

if you’re talking about the +1 5rax into split map late game mech switch on (4) player maps, i remember flash saying somewhere that it wasn’t because it was ineffective, it was mainly because it takes large toll on his hands, only being able to comfortably do it 1-2 times per day. even with queens becoming meta to counter late mech, wasn’t flash’s tvz winrate still 70%+?

so flash decided to come up with builds easier for his hands, and a lot of terrans followed simply because the builds flash invents are just that effective

Ruff

Kazakhstan179 Posts

October 30 2021 09:26 GMT

konadora, tankgirl, Crimson)S(hadow! thank you, comrades!

bovienchien

Vietnam1152 Posts

October 30 2021 11:18 GMT

On October 26 2021 19:04 Ruff wrote:
Some years ago most of Terrans were starting TvZ games with M&Ms and then switching to machinery (vultures with mines and tanks). TvZ games were extremely difficult for Zergs at that time. Why did Terrans stop using this successful strategy? Please explain and maybe attach VODs.

Before a TvZ starts I always want to take 5 rax into mech that Flash taught me on Youtube. When I am in game, I can't into mech because Z doesn't allow me to take a break. I am really so hard to breath.

Finally, M&M is only way to take 49% win rate for Terran players in TvZ from D rank to S rank.

Anyway, maybe this is answer for you

I lost a game when I have 92 units, 4 base but Zerg have 29 units, 3 bases.

LUCKY_NOOB

Bulgaria1500 Posts

October 30 2021 14:20 GMT

I just love u said machinery ; D

BigFan

TLADT24920 Posts

October 30 2021 17:17 GMT

#10

On October 27 2021 05:07 Crimson)S(hadow wrote:
if you’re talking about the +1 5rax into split map late game mech switch on (4) player maps, i remember flash saying somewhere that it wasn’t because it was ineffective, it was mainly because it takes large toll on his hands, only being able to comfortably do it 1-2 times per day. even with queens becoming meta to counter late mech, wasn’t flash’s tvz winrate still 70%+?

so flash decided to come up with builds easier for his hands, and a lot of terrans followed simply because the builds flash invents are just that effective

Flash said that he could do it a max of 3 games a day because it's so hard on the wrists. My own understanding is that Zergs have gotten better at muta micro too, and between that, the exposed timing during the mech transition, the maps, the APM requirements to play it effectively, and counters (queens for ex), it's just not a good idea to do it except in specific situations. Basically, a combination of everything.

Essbee

Canada2371 Posts

October 30 2021 20:43 GMT

#11

Queens

Magic Powers

Austria4478 Posts

October 31 2021 07:12 GMT

#12

It was definitely mass queens turning tanks into broodlings. That can also be combined with a sudden muta switch. Just too many counters for zerg, that's why terran players went back to trying to get ahead in the early/mid game and only switch to mech if it can't be avoided. At least generally speaking.

[[Starlight]]

United States1578 Posts

December 13 2021 06:39 GMT

#13

I’ve been away for a bit- wow, Z is now using Queens? A lot?

whaski

Finland577 Posts

December 13 2021 08:51 GMT

#14

It is mostly used with valconic openings

kogeT

Poland2041 Posts

December 14 2021 09:01 GMT

#15

On December 13 2021 17:51 whaski wrote:
It is mostly used with valconic openings

https://youtu.be/CGZvV2IpG7M

Correct, going 3 rax valkrie requires you to skip on +1 attack and there is no time to catch up in upgrades and it is easy to add 1 factory vulture speed/mine from that build, making it the best mech transition potential.

confusedzerg

Russian Federation102 Posts

December 14 2021 15:29 GMT

#16

On December 13 2021 15:39 [[Starlight]] wrote:
I’ve been away for a bit- wow, Z is now using Queens? A lot?

No because Terran not going mech often. Thank you.

iFU.pauline

France1658 Posts

December 16 2021 07:27 GMT

#17

It is true that Terran not doing mech switch feels like a regression for them, but then is it related to zerg going back to an improved 2 hatch muta opening?

confusedzerg

Russian Federation102 Posts

January 22 2022 16:09 GMT

#18

On December 16 2021 16:27 iFU.pauline wrote:
It is true that Terran not doing mech switch feels like a regression for them, but then is it related to zerg going back to an improved 2 hatch muta opening?

I do not think so I think just relates to how good Z was at stopping it. What really seem meta now is "2.5 hatch muta" which is a 3rd hatch at about 18-20. Good on some maps.

But if T went mech you can just make mass muta and kill initial goliath pushes.