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Active: 653 users

Why did T stop using transition to machinery vs Z?

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
Ruff
Profile Joined August 2006
Kazakhstan179 Posts
October 26 2021 10:04 GMT
#1
Some years ago most of Terrans were starting TvZ games with M&Ms and then switching to machinery (vultures with mines and tanks). TvZ games were extremely difficult for Zergs at that time. Why did Terrans stop using this successful strategy? Please explain and maybe attach VODs.
"Keep on dreaming, boy, cause someday you will shine" (Ogogo).
Return
Profile Joined June 2005
Ivory Coast856 Posts
October 26 2021 11:41 GMT
#2
They still do sometimes when doing the valkyrie build
Diiiscoo-oh, thats where the happy people go!
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66158 Posts
October 26 2021 14:11 GMT
#3
i feel like its because of the modern maps, which doesnt make for good TvZ late mechanic builds. hard to defend 3rd base (largo, polypoid, etc) and very open mids.
POGGERS
tankgirl
Profile Blog Joined May 2016
Canada401 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-26 15:13:01
October 26 2021 15:11 GMT
#4
all u need 2 know is in the last 2mins of this VOD

https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/627255-progamer-settings
TL+ Member
radley
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland582 Posts
October 26 2021 18:14 GMT
#5
I feel like marines openings are waste of economy nowadays, given the amount of crazy zerg variations on ladder. I prefer to play some eco mech builds, lately fast cc into 2 fact speed vult + science vessel. which is nice vs muta openings but can be hard to execute properly. Only after that I sometimes switch to mm + 2 fact tanks, which is reaction to mass hydra / lurk followups (generaly late hive builds).
TL+ Member
Crimson)S(hadow
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Philippines535 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-26 20:07:56
October 26 2021 20:07 GMT
#6
if you’re talking about the +1 5rax into split map late game mech switch on (4) player maps, i remember flash saying somewhere that it wasn’t because it was ineffective, it was mainly because it takes large toll on his hands, only being able to comfortably do it 1-2 times per day. even with queens becoming meta to counter late mech, wasn’t flash’s tvz winrate still 70%+?

so flash decided to come up with builds easier for his hands, and a lot of terrans followed simply because the builds flash invents are just that effective
"It's the end of the BW era which i devoted everything to for 10 years. I tried playing sc2, but my BW memories run too deep; I felt like I was playing an entirely different game" -ToSsGirL
Ruff
Profile Joined August 2006
Kazakhstan179 Posts
October 30 2021 09:26 GMT
#7
konadora, tankgirl, Crimson)S(hadow! thank you, comrades!
"Keep on dreaming, boy, cause someday you will shine" (Ogogo).
bovienchien
Profile Joined March 2014
Vietnam1152 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-30 11:22:39
October 30 2021 11:18 GMT
#8
On October 26 2021 19:04 Ruff wrote:
Some years ago most of Terrans were starting TvZ games with M&Ms and then switching to machinery (vultures with mines and tanks). TvZ games were extremely difficult for Zergs at that time. Why did Terrans stop using this successful strategy? Please explain and maybe attach VODs.

Before a TvZ starts I always want to take 5 rax into mech that Flash taught me on Youtube. When I am in game, I can't into mech because Z doesn't allow me to take a break. I am really so hard to breath.

Finally, M&M is only way to take 49% win rate for Terran players in TvZ from D rank to S rank.

Anyway, maybe this is answer for you


I lost a game when I have 92 units, 4 base but Zerg have 29 units, 3 bases.

[image loading]


[image loading]
https://www.facebook.com/StarcraftRemasteredVN/
LUCKY_NOOB
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Bulgaria1424 Posts
October 30 2021 14:20 GMT
#9
I just love u said machinery ; D
ko-fi.com/luckynoob
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-30 17:18:33
October 30 2021 17:17 GMT
#10
On October 27 2021 05:07 Crimson)S(hadow wrote:
if you’re talking about the +1 5rax into split map late game mech switch on (4) player maps, i remember flash saying somewhere that it wasn’t because it was ineffective, it was mainly because it takes large toll on his hands, only being able to comfortably do it 1-2 times per day. even with queens becoming meta to counter late mech, wasn’t flash’s tvz winrate still 70%+?

so flash decided to come up with builds easier for his hands, and a lot of terrans followed simply because the builds flash invents are just that effective

Flash said that he could do it a max of 3 games a day because it's so hard on the wrists. My own understanding is that Zergs have gotten better at muta micro too, and between that, the exposed timing during the mech transition, the maps, the APM requirements to play it effectively, and counters (queens for ex), it's just not a good idea to do it except in specific situations. Basically, a combination of everything.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
Essbee
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada2371 Posts
October 30 2021 20:43 GMT
#11
Queens
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3957 Posts
October 31 2021 07:12 GMT
#12
It was definitely mass queens turning tanks into broodlings. That can also be combined with a sudden muta switch. Just too many counters for zerg, that's why terran players went back to trying to get ahead in the early/mid game and only switch to mech if it can't be avoided. At least generally speaking.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-12-13 06:41:28
December 13 2021 06:39 GMT
#13
I’ve been away for a bit- wow, Z is now using Queens? A lot?
User was warned for being hilarious
whaski
Profile Joined December 2012
Finland576 Posts
December 13 2021 08:51 GMT
#14
It is mostly used with valconic openings

it's not just a music it's something else
kogeT
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland2037 Posts
December 14 2021 09:01 GMT
#15
On December 13 2021 17:51 whaski wrote:
It is mostly used with valconic openings

https://youtu.be/CGZvV2IpG7M


Correct, going 3 rax valkrie requires you to skip on +1 attack and there is no time to catch up in upgrades and it is easy to add 1 factory vulture speed/mine from that build, making it the best mech transition potential.
https://www.twitch.tv/kogetbw
confusedzerg
Profile Joined July 2021
Russian Federation102 Posts
December 14 2021 15:29 GMT
#16
On December 13 2021 15:39 [[Starlight]] wrote:
I’ve been away for a bit- wow, Z is now using Queens? A lot?

No because Terran not going mech often. Thank you.
I am a Westerner and I like homosexuality. Thank you.
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1546 Posts
December 16 2021 07:27 GMT
#17
It is true that Terran not doing mech switch feels like a regression for them, but then is it related to zerg going back to an improved 2 hatch muta opening?
No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
confusedzerg
Profile Joined July 2021
Russian Federation102 Posts
January 22 2022 16:09 GMT
#18
On December 16 2021 16:27 iFU.pauline wrote:
It is true that Terran not doing mech switch feels like a regression for them, but then is it related to zerg going back to an improved 2 hatch muta opening?

I do not think so I think just relates to how good Z was at stopping it. What really seem meta now is "2.5 hatch muta" which is a 3rd hatch at about 18-20. Good on some maps.

But if T went mech you can just make mass muta and kill initial goliath pushes.
I am a Westerner and I like homosexuality. Thank you.
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
January 22 2022 17:54 GMT
#19
On October 27 2021 00:11 tankgirl wrote:
all u need 2 know is in the last 2mins of this VOD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXsnF21Klwc&t=1254s

this was so beautiful to watch, it brought a tear to my eye. Thank you!

Who was his opponent btw?
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
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