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usual disclaimer: i'm terrible at the game
 Sorry has been using Ghosts with Lockdown and Nukes in videos on his youtube channel recently. I'm not sure if he's just posting the games he wins but so far every one I've seen he's won, against players like Bisu and Free. It seems like a more realistic strategy than I would expect.
He's essentially playing an extra-turtle style while locking down speed-shuttles and arbiters, and then sometimes EMP+nuking nexuses, or nuking cannons. The lategame speed shuttles have become really common as of late, and this seems like it's intended to counter that.
He's squeezing out an extra bit of effectiveness from his last bit of supply, like he'll be controlling one part of the map with tanks while he goes and nukes somewhere else.
While it seems like the money spent on the ghost/nukes isnt equal to the money spent on the units they directly kill with nukes or lockdown, the space & time he's controlling with them seems worth it. It's letting him get things done cheaper elsewhere. He ends up basically making himself unkillable while the protoss with many more bases wears themselves out.
There is a game where he nukes a group of carriers but that seemed more like a gamble to me, and perhaps we should ignore that?
Here's some of the videos:
+ Show Spoiler +
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Yes, maybe some of them finally realize.
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United States9291 Posts
It's very interesting, it also doesnt even do that poorly vs a carrier switch either, which is normally another way for protoss to try to break a super turtle terran. Nuke is 8 supply, each ghost is only 1 supply. If you position 1 ghost in each recall area, that's 1 supply each, while leaving a vessel there instead is 2 supply, and emp is a skillshot while lockdown is a point and click.
Let's say there are 4 areas where Protoss can reasonably recall.
w/ Vessels, each vessel costs 100/225 and 2 supply, EMP = 200/200
w/ Ghosts, each ghost costs 25/75 and 1 supply, lockdown = 200/200
You get 2 ghosts per 1 vessel, and save 50/75 (basically another ghost without the supply limitation).
Vessel = 50 seconds to build, EMP = 76 seconds.
Ghost = 32 seconds, Lockdown = 63 seconds
If you play a turtle style with the only goal to stop recalls and shuttles from entering your base, and aren't looking to make big pushes, it's actually fairly fast and cost/supply efficient to use ghosts instead of arbiters.
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The problem for protoss is that Sorry is not turtling that much in late game, so protoss cannot freely expand entire map. The only thing I see lacking in his gameplay is controlling ghost when pushing. Which is understandable, because it is hardest part. You can see he has still problems with it, despite having strong mechanics.
Ghost supported mech army is strongest composition in both TvP and TvT, but it requires almost twice as good mechanics to be played properly, which is too much even for FlaSh. Turtle style is helping in some way, but it's not that you can completely sit on 4 bases and let protoss mine out rest of map. You still need to push forward and as more space to cover, its getting easier for protoss to attack somewhere. Thats why you need to establish some map control and late game depends mainly on it.
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I love the evolution of scbw
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could you elaborate gypsy?
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United States37837 Posts
This was very difficult to play against with standard 2 base arb 4 base carrier. The carrier transition just doesn’t work and moving back into arbs leaves an opening where you don’t have the army comp you’d desire.
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Netherlands3202 Posts
On February 24 2021 01:40 FlaShFTW wrote:
It's very interesting, it also doesnt even do that poorly vs a carrier switch either, which is normally another way for protoss to try to break a super turtle terran. Nuke is 8 supply, each ghost is only 1 supply. If you position 1 ghost in each recall area, that's 1 supply each, while leaving a vessel there instead is 2 supply, and emp is a skillshot while lockdown is a point and click.
Let's say there are 4 areas where Protoss can reasonably recall.
w/ Vessels, each vessel costs 100/225 and 2 supply, EMP = 200/200
w/ Ghosts, each ghost costs 25/75 and 1 supply, lockdown = 200/200
You get 2 ghosts per 1 vessel, and save 50/75 (basically another ghost without the supply limitation).
Vessel = 50 seconds to build, EMP = 76 seconds.
Ghost = 32 seconds, Lockdown = 63 seconds
If you play a turtle style with the only goal to stop recalls and shuttles from entering your base, and aren't looking to make big pushes, it's actually fairly fast and cost/supply efficient to use ghosts instead of arbiters vessels.
Since you're listing numbers: (You're forgetting the initial 50/50 for the Covert Ops.)
While even getting just 1 ghost with lockdown is 25/100 cheaper than 1 vessel with EMP,
1 vessel with EMP is available about 8 seconds sooner than 1 ghost with lockdown is,
but getting 2 lockdowns from 1 barracks is available 10s earlier than 2 EMPS from 1 starport,
yet 2 lockdowns is 40 seconds later than the first available EMP.
Lockdown can only affect 1 target, EMP can affect however many inside the aoe. Versus hallucination EMP is the clear winner. In case of carrier switch vs ghosts, toss could theoretically counteract that by getting hallucination, DA or even just a +2 DT to 1-shot ghosts.
All that being said... I'm hoping to see some ghost action and counter ghost play in BSL commentated by Gypsy of course.
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Thanks for highlighting this!
The new discoveries are what keep a strategy game interesting. It's remarkable how BW has continued to deliver. You'd think that with the prolonged, intense competition during the 2000--2010 period, pros would have had it all figured out, but nope.
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anyone think that Sorry faked a Nuke-strat in his ASL-game vs Shine?
He was floating the Fac above his natural, but it wasn't necessarily over the SCVs or turrets, more over his CC-addon.
How would it fake Shine out? Just make him panic?
PS: Sorry has posted a couple of games vs turtling Zerg where the nuke was very efficient.
Absolutely love his play and that he managed to find a way to use nukes in an efficient way. Never thought the day would come!
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I agree with previous post; I feel like hallucination is a natural counter to lockdown play. (hallucination is underutilized in general imo). But overall that'd be very cool to see
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looks like sorry watches artosis' stream
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How strong and how risky is the nuke-play?
Do you think it could be pulled off in an ASL-game by Sorry?
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On April 03 2021 14:29 blabber wrote:
I agree with previous post; I feel like hallucination is a natural counter to lockdown play. (hallucination is underutilized in general imo). But overall that'd be very cool to see
NOW we are talking! Luv it!
ALL HAIL KING RADLEY NUKEMASTER GENERAL
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Any pro games doing late game ghosts ?
YouTube link?
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EPT
