I just want to say that I love how BW continues to evolve over the past 20 some years. Soma is starting to look like the next crop of amazing Z's with new tricks up their sleeve.
Watch this fpvod of Soma vs Snow.
I love how he is bringing back 2H into ZvT, but now he is starting to do the same in ZvP. I wanted to discuss as usually if you watch enough BW you can sort of mimic playstyles of your favorite pros and at least look competent to some degree...But try following Soma's playstyle. It ain't going to work. It looks all over the place. He is saying F U to the norms and just doing whatever he wants and it works! I mean his eco looks so busted compared to the normal ZvP meta in the first few minutes. I love it!!
What is the benefit of this playstyle? His spire is about 15-20 seconds earlier than normal compared to a regular 3H spire into 5H build, but he doesn't use it initially for quicker muta.
Anyway, I just wanted to share this replay as I love when players don't follow the norm and still rock it.
I've actually used a very similar build over the past year and I am kinda flattered that it would be used at a pro level considering I developed and tweaked it myself over time. However, it can be easily thwarted and is in no way a meta of any type. Like any strong deviation from the norm it's just another tool for the arsenal and relies on several factors to become productive. The first is it's strongest versus 1 gate openings and relies solely on denial of scout or eliminating scouting immediately. The protoss must not know how early your gas was or how early you started lair. A good protoss will immediately confirm if you've taken a third and once they realize you have not they will become suspicious. I would not use this game as an example because Snow gambled and skipped stargate (without making a DA) which allowed zerg to retain air control indefinitely. Typically, protoss can turtle, add a couple cannons, continuously make sairs and tech to templar while harassing with zealots on map to keep muta from harassing mineral lines.
However, especially if you can get away with early drones, this build becomes very powerful once +1 carapace finishes. What I've found incredibly effective is to research lurker upon getting your 5th hatch. By time protoss feels comfortable enough to push out your lurker will finish rendering their push useless while also allowing you to counter attack with muta. From here zerg can mass hydra and take a 4th.
To answer your question in the op about the benefit: 1.) You force protoss to spend extra money early on static defense and use less efficient progressions in their build due to uncertainty in what they are facing 2.) The spire finishes earlier so that +1 can be upgraded sooner than usual (the idea of this build is to drone and catch up economically while +1 is upgrading and to push out with muta/scourge upon its completion).
Soma has a really fun and interesting play style. It's pretty awesome to watch him abuse other top pros with top notch micro. Those with average micro abilities should stay away from copying Soma builds. His style works because he has great micro, timings, game sense and decision making.
The build does well against standard protoss play, even if it's scouted. We will see if protoss can figure out a strong counter. Skipping a Stargate and powering ground with a strong eco feels like the correct play against this, especially if you add in a dark archon.
The problem with Stargate is that you will still need to build 4 cannons to defend against mutalisks. Also, Zerg will have air carapace before you get air attack. Which means that protoss should never get air control. May as well cede air control and win through powering eco.
soma walloped Mini (who went stargate) with this build in the KCM series today meta shift? doubt it for ladder its difficult to pull off for the average Z player due to high mechanics requirement and game sense necessary
On December 17 2019 18:43 Hawk2 wrote: The build does well against standard protoss play, even if it's scouted. We will see if protoss can figure out a strong counter. Skipping a Stargate and powering ground with a strong eco feels like the correct play against this, especially if you add in a dark archon.
The problem with Stargate is that you will still need to build 4 cannons to defend against mutalisks. Also, Zerg will have air carapace before you get air attack. Which means that protoss should never get air control. May as well cede air control and win through powering eco.
An aggressive ground push with DA is fine as well, the drawback to this approach is the DA is not incredibly mobile and can't defend versus counters as well push.
Also, if zerg has +1 before protoss it will only be for a very small window which isn't really relevant.
On December 17 2019 18:43 Hawk2 wrote: The build does well against standard protoss play, even if it's scouted. We will see if protoss can figure out a strong counter. Skipping a Stargate and powering ground with a strong eco feels like the correct play against this, especially if you add in a dark archon.
The problem with Stargate is that you will still need to build 4 cannons to defend against mutalisks. Also, Zerg will have air carapace before you get air attack. Which means that protoss should never get air control. May as well cede air control and win through powering eco.
Having to make 4 cannons shouldn't be that big of a deal if protoss has twice the amount of workers zerg does. I think Soma does this so he can have map control early game and some of the mid game while adjusting to what he sees with mutas. Denying the protoss scout is key here in hopes that protoss doesnt make two cannons in each mineral line. There's still a few abusive timings that protoss can do. Rushing to dark templar out of your gateway at natural and morphing an archon from two gateways in the main next to cannons seems like a safe way to play it. The problem here is that two cannons at protoss natural doesn't safely defend against mutas... it only safely defends before there's a full control group of mutas.
I've actually used a very similar build over the past year and I am kinda flattered that it would be used at a pro level considering I developed and tweaked it myself over time. However, it can be easily thwarted and is in no way a meta of any type. Like any strong deviation from the norm it's just another tool for the arsenal and relies on several factors to become productive. The first is it's strongest versus 1 gate openings and relies solely on denial of scout or eliminating scouting immediately. The protoss must not know how early your gas was or how early you started lair. A good protoss will immediately confirm if you've taken a third and once they realize you have not they will become suspicious. I would not use this game as an example because Snow gambled and skipped stargate (without making a DA) which allowed zerg to retain air control indefinitely. Typically, protoss can turtle, add a couple cannons, continuously make sairs and tech to templar while harassing with zealots on map to keep muta from harassing mineral lines.
However, especially if you can get away with early drones, this build becomes very powerful once +1 carapace finishes. What I've found incredibly effective is to research lurker upon getting your 5th hatch. By time protoss feels comfortable enough to push out your lurker will finish rendering their push useless while also allowing you to counter attack with muta. From here zerg can mass hydra and take a 4th.
To answer your question in the op about the benefit: 1.) You force protoss to spend extra money early on static defense and use less efficient progressions in their build due to uncertainty in what they are facing 2.) The spire finishes earlier so that +1 can be upgraded sooner than usual (the idea of this build is to drone and catch up economically while +1 is upgrading and to push out with muta/scourge upon its completion).
you are so confused if you think you ''developed it;''
This is a mindgame b.o vs gate exp. Snow wasn't able to confirm anything with his early scout so he's forced to make more zeals and delay his gas/core (to confirm no 3rd/no hydras), which is what Soma wants. Soma's goal here is to deny a zeal/probe rescout @ his 3rd but Snow snuck units out before Soma had an ovi spotter @ his nat. Snow's 1st zeal and probe didn't tell him anything (other than no 3rd hatch at his normal 3rd) but his 2 zeal and probe re-scout told him that Soma wasn't going for hydras (unless it's a very delayed range + speed timing) and he had no 3rd, so Soma's range of b.os becomes 2 base ling/lurk bust, 2 base mutas or some sort of weird ling drop.
Soma ovi scouts Snow going for a catch all anti muta/anti front bust style (no SG/defensive cannons at main and nat + goons) so he skips making mutas because there's no opening to do any damge, instead he drones up and holds p's gate unit timing (which he knows is coming because Snow's blind). Basically Soma predicts Snow's response and squeezed out as many drones as he could before the timing hit.
Snow's 1st goon/zeal poke @ Z's 3rd was to scout for hydras or mutas, if he saw hydras he wouldn't have morphed his hts into archons. Soma gains map control after his defense cus Snow has no immediate answer vs his mutas, the game snowballs from there.
Snow has 2 options after his archon timing (obviously he's in a terrible spot now), he can either turtle on 2 bases into a DA or sneak a 3rd and play defensive behind cannons HT while massing. He tried to do the latter (right call imo, Soma had too much map control for him to sit on 2 bases and move out after DA tech) but Soma's timing @ Snow's 3rd was perfect, good HT pick-offs too. Fun game, nice mindgames.
I enjoy his games because they're too unpredictable and scrappy and that is great for viewing games. I find games way too structured and mostly terrible clones of the top guys in the respective races really ho-hum to watch.If you wanna learn and be a really great player though I guess he'd be a bad role model lol
I've actually used a very similar build over the past year and I am kinda flattered that it would be used at a pro level considering I developed and tweaked it myself over time. However, it can be easily thwarted and is in no way a meta of any type. Like any strong deviation from the norm it's just another tool for the arsenal and relies on several factors to become productive. The first is it's strongest versus 1 gate openings and relies solely on denial of scout or eliminating scouting immediately. The protoss must not know how early your gas was or how early you started lair. A good protoss will immediately confirm if you've taken a third and once they realize you have not they will become suspicious. I would not use this game as an example because Snow gambled and skipped stargate (without making a DA) which allowed zerg to retain air control indefinitely. Typically, protoss can turtle, add a couple cannons, continuously make sairs and tech to templar while harassing with zealots on map to keep muta from harassing mineral lines.
However, especially if you can get away with early drones, this build becomes very powerful once +1 carapace finishes. What I've found incredibly effective is to research lurker upon getting your 5th hatch. By time protoss feels comfortable enough to push out your lurker will finish rendering their push useless while also allowing you to counter attack with muta. From here zerg can mass hydra and take a 4th.
To answer your question in the op about the benefit: 1.) You force protoss to spend extra money early on static defense and use less efficient progressions in their build due to uncertainty in what they are facing 2.) The spire finishes earlier so that +1 can be upgraded sooner than usual (the idea of this build is to drone and catch up economically while +1 is upgrading and to push out with muta/scourge upon its completion).
you are so confused if you think you ''developed it;''
If you think of a joke never having heard it before used anywhere else it's safe to say you came up with it, no?
Did Soma come across a random replay of my game and decide to copy? No..
just because you are fooling around with some stuff on the ladder between the B ranks.... doesn't really mean anything don't inflate yourself that much you were just screwing around thx.
On December 19 2019 09:13 onlystar wrote: just because you are fooling around with some stuff on the ladder between the B ranks.... doesn't really mean anything don't inflate yourself that much you were just screwing around thx.
Lol
I think what Yaj is trying to say is that very coincidentally, whatever weird style/opening he does, it just SO HAPPENED that Soma was doing it, too. And rightfully so, Soma was probably doing this and practicing it before Yaj started tinkering with it, too. I think Yaj just means he stumbled upon it but he was doing this without actually knowing it. Of course, saying he "developed" it is a weird thing, but maybe he did -- for himself -- but obviously Soma is popularizing it and evolving it.
I get this though, because I've done some weird/funky stuff, then I go see a progamer doing it, and I think to myself, "Damn, I'm smart" but really, it's just purely luck and coincidental... and then you come to realize the pro has a massively improved and efficient version of it anyways, so you were never that 'smart' to begin with
On December 19 2019 09:13 onlystar wrote: just because you are fooling around with some stuff on the ladder between the B ranks.... doesn't really mean anything don't inflate yourself that much you were just screwing around thx.
Lol
I think what Yaj is trying to say is that very coincidentally, whatever weird style/opening he does, it just SO HAPPENED that Soma was doing it, too. And rightfully so, Soma was probably doing this and practicing it before Yaj started tinkering with it, too. I think Yaj just means he stumbled upon it but he was doing this without actually knowing it. Of course, saying he "developed" it is a weird thing, but maybe he did -- for himself -- but obviously Soma is popularizing it and evolving it.
I get this though, because I've done some weird/funky stuff, then I go see a progamer doing it, and I think to myself, "Damn, I'm smart" but really, it's just purely luck and coincidental... and then you come to realize the pro has a massively improved and efficient version of it anyways, so you were never that 'smart' to begin with
More or less, yes. I developed the build myself and for myself. As I stated before I have been using variations of this build for over a year now. Do I have a patent on the build or think that I am the only one able to conceive the idea for it? No. I think it is quite evident from my initial response the time, thought and experience I have using the build and in no way would it be possible for me to obtain that detailed of a breakdown by just recently watching Soma introduce the idea.
On December 18 2019 20:23 Broodwar4lyf wrote: I enjoy his games because they're too unpredictable and scrappy and that is great for viewing games. I find games way too structured and mostly terrible clones of the top guys in the respective races really ho-hum to watch.If you wanna learn and be a really great player though I guess he'd be a bad role model lol
sorta like kwanro lolol
soma is definitely entertaining as heck, but when he's forced into a macro game or forced to play against a solid player who wont be easily shaken by his gimmicks, it looks like a poor defenseless puppey being boxed down to the floor.
On December 18 2019 20:23 Broodwar4lyf wrote: I enjoy his games because they're too unpredictable and scrappy and that is great for viewing games. I find games way too structured and mostly terrible clones of the top guys in the respective races really ho-hum to watch.If you wanna learn and be a really great player though I guess he'd be a bad role model lol
sorta like kwanro lolol
soma is definitely entertaining as heck, but when he's forced into a macro game or forced to play against a solid player who wont be easily shaken by his gimmicks, it looks like a poor defenseless puppey being boxed down to the floor.
It's not like all he did vs BeSt and Snow was cheese...
EPT
