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Okay, I've been going through the Recommended Threads because I want to brush up on my Protoss basics.
About 2 gate, when I do it, I don't really see a point. So the build is 8pylon, 10gate, 12 gate. While the gates are being made, I make probes and then when my first gateway finishes, I make a zealot immediately. From here my supply is 15/17 and then 16/17 because of my probe, which is where I make my pylon.
So my one zealot is out and then my pylon is holding me back from making more. So there's like a long while until I can start producing more zealots so that 1 zealot I have is going to the Zerg's base but only to find 6 lings waiting for it so I send it back home. Here, I can make 2 more zealots now that my pylon is done. Now I send my 3 zealots over to attack but not there is a sunken and some more lings to attack my force so I retreat and the 2 gate becomes pointless.
That's how pretty much all my games go unless it is a 9 pool.
Now wouldn't 1 gate have been better as a whole even though the positions might be close (not including 12,3 LT)? I mean like after that second pylon is done, I'll just make one more zealot to hold my ramp and I would be ahead iin tech than if I went 2 gate.
I hope this makes sense or at least someone could explain to me what I'm doing wrong. I hope I'm not coming off as like a ranter or anything. I just want some insight because I don't have a training partner or anything. I'll be glad to post up a replay but I currently don't have one because this is my new computer and my old one is the one with all the replays.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
10/12 gate is a safe/semi-aggressive 2 gate you'll be doing mostly to hold versus 3 hatch ling (they break 1 gate ramps just by immense numbers) and to tech to citadel/fast lot timing attack.
try 9/10 gate/11 probe halt. It gets you 3 lots before your second pylon and actually allows super-aggressive play, but since you skip probes, you get behind on eco if it fails. However, if you do everything right, zerg will have to stop powering and your eco disadvantage will even out.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
i thought 2 gate u can make 2nd pylon at 13
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BO for 2 gate hardcore zeal rush is 8 pylon, 9 gate, 10 gate, 13 pylon.... Your BO is too slow.
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Well, there are many different ways to do 2 gates, just like there are many different ways to do speedlings. The important thing is to make sure your follow up actions are consistant with your build order. If you are doing later gates, it's so your economy and tech come faster but it sacrifices the ability to hurt him early, so don't try to do that. Pretend you're going to do that, but don't actually do it. If you do really quick gates like 8/9 feel free to bring probes; you are already gambling so it makes sense to gamble heavily. On the other hand if you are doing 11/12 gate you are going to have alot of zealots in a bit; this is strong vs 12 pool or 9 pool, make sure to cut probes if you need to to make non stop zeals and enough pylons. In an econ / tech build you never cut probes, which is why you are less aggressive.
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You don't bother with 10/12 unless the map is sufficiently small. Anyway, 10/12 is what used to be super-standard play, the safe pseudo-pressure reactionary build. It's like what 2 rax academy tech to vessels (before expo) in TvZ used to be as well.
Anyway, you should be placing your 2nd pylon at 15 supply, not 16. Cut that probe for a little while to get the pylon faster. On maps with 9 minerals in the starting location, you should generally make probes up to 16 and 17 while the pylon is building to bolster your economy--you'll get up to 200 minerals just about as your pylon and 1st zealot finish so you can still make those 2nd/3rd zealots right afterwards. If you want a slightly harder rush or are on a map with 8 minerals (common), still build the 2nd pylon at 15 but cut all probes until your 2nd pylon finishes to start your second zeal before the 2nd pylon finishes (going from 15/17 to 17/17).
10/12 can pressure a close-by 12 hatch expo build pretty strongly (forcing lings and a sunken) and can force less greedy builds to get defense early too. The point is to force the Zerg to make as many sunkens and lings as you can without losing any zealots, thus stopping their powering and teching for a while while you're still powering and gassing after your 3rd or 5th zealot. Well, you can engage the enemy in favorable positions (fighting 8 lings with 3 zeals), but you should run away out of sunken range once a sunken finishes--you're probably not going to get to do much damage in terms of actually killing stuff.
Gas should never be gotten too late (after the 5th zeal, after the 3rd is usually better, if not after the 1st-2nd for misinformation if the Zerg drone scouted 2 gate and left immediately) unless you're doing incredible damage or you decide that you've scared the Zerg enough to go FE immediately afterward. The goal from there is hard tech to archives and expoing with cannons as soon as is safely possible. Hopefully you enter midgame with a bunch of zealots from early game and a slowed-down opponent.
The advantage of 10/12 is that it's safer than 1 gate tech and stops the Zerg from powering as much early on. In practice, though, especially on the larger maps, the Zerg isn't slowed down enough from the zealot pressure, so you're actually slowing yourself down more relatively by going 2 gate than by going FE.
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Great post, Myrmidon.
This is how all of my 10/12 games go:
8 pylon, 10/12 gates, 13 zeal, 15 pylon, 17 zeal, zeal
I start pressuring with my first zeal and scouting probe, pulling back when my next pair of zeals is coming. I keep zeals coming, and gas up when I have the minerals left over from zeals, pylons, probes, etc. I do what I can to guess what tech they're going, but recently I've had Z's hiding their hydra from me and intentionally showing me lings, so I cannon up my main/nat nexi, therefore putting me so far behind that it's practically impossible to win the game.
Now, the game branches in to one of a few ways:
1. They go hydra, and I guessed right (I've stopped trying to read Z without sair--they all trick me), and I do okay. I go into the mid-game with a good chance.
2. I guess hydra, and they go muta. I type out the moment I see muta.
3. They go muta, and I guess muta. I do alright, and get ready for the tech switch to hydra.
4. They tech really fast, keep me from expo'ing, and I lose.
I'm not going to say that 10/12 isn't viable anymore, but I certainly think that FE is just better. I think it's a shame, as I feel more comfortable just going 10/12, ironically.
I think it would be nice if some better P's could share their thoughts on 10/12.
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pretty much, myrmidon hit the point straight on. 2 gate is considered pretty much obsolete now, with the exception of proxy or an early aggressive build like 9/10. In any case, with a 2 gate zealot build, you DEFINTELY want to keep your zealots alive unless you know you can greatly damage the zerg, thus, breaking even or gaining an advantage over the zerg. Generealy, however, most protoss players don't 2 gate these days because normally zerg can easily hold back 2 gate zeals and get a head start on economy. But, I'm assuming you want to know more about 2 gate. Here are my thoughts:
9/10 gate:
Very poweful early zealot build. You can get in 3 zealots before making your 2nd pylon which will pressure zerg hardcore even on most far positions. The key here is timing and efficient micro. Watch pvz replays to get an idea of when and how fast lings arrive on the scene depending on the zerg's build order. You should have kept your scouter probe alive. If zerg did FE, use your scouter probe and zeal to prevent drones from building sunkens. I believe this is a crucial to how effective 2 gate is. If you are able to successfully prevent sunkens from being built, you should be able to take down some drones / lings, or in good scenario, the expo hatchery.
10/12 gate
The goal if this build is to conserve your economy while being aggressive. I believe this build is more of a proxy than anything these days. Basically, it follows the 9/10 gate build but on a slower, but steadier pace. Obviously, it's risky on maps with a ramp like luna or lost temple where there is a wide amount of space outside the ramp where lings can wreak havoc. However, on maps like Longinus II, with smart building placement, you can effectively reduce the walking distance between you and your opponent while closing off the amount of space for lings to potentially pose a threat later on.
Remember though, with either build keep in mind that your goal is to prevent zerg from powering as effectively as possible while minimizing casualties on your side. Make smart decisions based upon the distances between bases and information you gain by scouting. Pretty much, all we can do here at the strategy section is point you in the right direction. The rest is up to you.
EDIT: Also, regardless of what build you're using, learn the art of keeping your scouter probe alive as long as possible. The information you gain from this is VERY important. Depending on how well you scout with your 1st probe, you may not even have to go sair. In fact, you may survive just based upon knowing what the Zerg is going to do because you kept your scouter alive. KEEP YOUR SCOUTER PROBE ALIVE!!!
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I think the most important reason why 2 gate builds are outdated is simply because 3 zerglings > 1 zealot (assuming no micro on EITHER side) and so it's simply not cost effective to keep turning minerals into zealots which die too fast to zerglings, it is better to include archons in the mix really fast if you want offense, or get a better economy, or high templars fast, instead of lots of zealots. The exception is when you have the +1 upgrade, in which case zealots are very cost effective against zerglings.
One of the things a 2 gate build can do is force zerg to choose between powering and taking a mineral only expansion. I mean, most zerg are going 3 hatch before tech right, so if they want to take a natural, they have to pump a little less than 2 hatches worth to match your zealot production, but that means they cant drone. The most powerful form of 2 gate that I face is really 2 gate fast expo, after forcing zerg to sunken up and make lings protoss immediately about faces and expands. This undoubtably has huge vulnerabilities to 2 hatch tech but most zerg 3 hatch anyway.
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At least on LT if I'm going to 2 gate I prefer saving up ~275 minerals after 8/9 probes and then sending a probe to duel gate at 8 psi, near my choke -- then i scout with that same probe. Then I make another probe, and a 2nd pylon.
After that I make another probe or two and make sure to cut production enough to have 200 minerals when the gates finish. The result is a very very early rush of 2 zealots + scouting probe which can do major damage to many zerg players. Typically I'll follow it up with another 2 zealots, rallied to the zergs base. Often times you can kill the early zerglings / sunken attempts with the 2 zealots + probe and then when the other two zealots arrive you can sometimes block their ramp with those. This seems to work especially well against zergs who 12 hatch at their expansion.
After those 4 zealots though I will almost always gas up and start teching to temps and start thinking about a forge, while cutting zealot production.
This build obviously hurts econ early on but I find that it typically hurts zergs just as much.
I'm a big fan of pressuring zergs in general to put a check on their powering. I like to go heavy on zealots for quite a while in the early game and just line them up outside the zergs expansion -- faking an attack occasionally to make sure they feel threatened.
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never do double gate anymore since friends have gotten better all round
with micro 3 lings > 1 zeal and the cost... well you do the math.
always FE or fast forge now or 1 gate tech
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Dont build the 16/17 probe. Just wait some secs and you're getting a 17/17 zealot.
Now ill keep reading, will edit later
Edit:
Ok, your problem is that you use this build no matter what the map is. Im Z and I find a lot more trouble against turtlers than rushers. As a matter of fact, since i have an aggresive play, i hate the defensive play =P, so If he goes agresive Im probably gonna do well.
So, First analyze if the map and the positions are worth of a 2 gate zeal rush.
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I havent played a game of starcraft in months, so I cant realy remember exactly what your doing wrong with your build but someone propably already told you.
However my advice to you, is if you have doubts about the effectiveness of double gate in pvz (some maps its realy good ie guilotine or 12-3 temple, some maps it sucks, IE into the darkness or even rush hour), try playing zerg for a while against good double gating protoss and you will begin to see the effects it has on a zerg economy.
Thats the kind of thing you dont always see from the protoss side, but it helps to have a good understanding of it.
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One more thing I would like to add (reading a small segment of the post above mine made me think about this), is that you should tailor your play style to what you know about the person you are playing. Agressive zerg seem hard to most begining protoss, however safe play is the ultimate answer to this kind of a zerg, and the opposite is true for a macro/defensive zerg. Try to play safe against blackman and you will be outmacro'ed in a heartbeat. However if you try to take 2 expoes without substantial defense against julyzerg, its gg. The same thing applies to your opening strategies.
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On February 20 2007 07:10 dream-_- wrote:
One more thing I would like to add (reading a small segment of the post above mine made me think about this), is that you should tailor your play style to what you know about the person you are playing. Agressive zerg seem hard to most begining protoss, however safe play is the ultimate answer to this kind of a zerg, and the opposite is true for a macro/defensive zerg. Try to play safe against blackman and you will be outmacro'ed in a heartbeat. However if you try to take 2 expoes without substantial defense against julyzerg, its gg. The same thing applies to your opening strategies.
Julyzerg is a bit of an extreme example since regardless of what strategy you use, chances are, you'll simply get outplayed in the end.
Also, 2-gate isn't necessarily a horrid build; you just gotta know what you're doing with it. A large portion of it comes down to what style zerg you're gaming against.
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I dont know why so much people here are saying 10/12 is obsolete. This is bulllshit. Its still perfectly viable nowadays, especially if you expand early without losing to many zlots. The goal of this is to put pressure on the zerg, basically force him to triple sunk and keep him few drones. Then you whore probe same time and expand/forge/core at around 40 pop.
The advantage of this build compared to the FE is that zerg has lower eco and cant double expand early. You re lower on tech though, and more vulnerable to quick tech by the z.
I remember i saw some time ago some F91 vs PJ bo5 where the later clearly (and easily) win two rounds going this bo.
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10/12 at the spot you would usually place your cannons for a FE into FE is a really good strategy, actually. You can start it as a semi-proxy rush and turn it into FE without the need for cannons, even if you scout hydras. Mons from 88) used this build against some really good players and wiped them with it.
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United States20667 Posts
On February 21 2007 22:14 5HITCOMBO wrote:
10/12 at the spot you would usually place your cannons for a FE into FE is a really good strategy, actually. You can start it as a semi-proxy rush and turn it into FE without the need for cannons, even if you scout hydras. Mons from 88) used this build against some really good players and wiped them with it.
This build seems to be quite popular on Req/RLT from what I've seen. The first 2 pro PvZ broadcasted on RLT used 2gate prox into FE, IIRC.
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Canada7170 Posts
I thought 9/10 gate was 7 pylon, no? Someone correct me or confirm.
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EPT
