EPTreplay :
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=31882
TvZ Help vs HydraLurk
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Zalfor
United States1035 Posts
replay : http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=31882 | ||
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
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Way
Canada565 Posts
and you did not open 2 fac... you went fac port.... and the 2nd fac is not to be seen for a long time... at your first expo you only had 1 scv getting gas for the longest time... so i think you should really review ur own replay first i dont know why you wasted ur money early building a turret at expo locations early, if he went mutas arent u going to regret doing something so stupid? and your money can be spent better elsewhere, he can use 1 ling and kill all those stupid turrets you built for some unknown reason 14 minutes into the game.. u have 5 barracks and 1 factory still... whats the 2 fac you are talking about? that and skyglow1 hit you on the money, your macro is definitely off... around 13 minute something you let a group of infantry + tank wander away lured by hydras? your micro can use more work as well... your apm seems to be more spam based... I mean... letting like part of ur army drift off for some unknown reason, how often are you watching your men? then u lose like 1/4 of your forces right there, or let them get damaged, then you get creamed by his pure hydras with whats left of your main army... that's a given considering that your micro/macro is at this point, obviously not up to par. all of a sudden you put down two expos, completely defenseless and raped by the zerg... did any thinking go behind that? at 17 minutes you still have 1 factory + adding barracks? come on, what are you doing really? are you thinking at all about how you are going to break out? this is definitely not 2 fac at 18 minutes you start your second factory... a bit late isnt it... then at this i really wonder what your apm is going to, because you irradiate some lurkers only to lose 3 of your 5 sci vessels to spitting hydras...scourges, ok, i can accept to carelessness, but to just hydras? did you decide to put some of your vessels on on suicide missions or? the game was probably over around the 5 minutes mark because I am sure you really have no idea how to play into mid and late game considering your poor beginning game and right now zerg is just playing you like a tool until u die  hope this helps! to summarize: 1. your macro is not good - high money, your second factory not even a factor, you waste money building turrets not at your base and you add 2 new expos for no reason only to lose them when you can hardly secure your own base 2. your micro is not good - stray wandering groups get killed (tank+m&m), lose vessels unecessarily 3. you have poor sense of build orders keep trying though! | ||
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Alborz
Canada1551 Posts
I think you could've achieved a lot more early game, him going 4hatch and late lair. Next time view your own replay a bit more thoroughly, im sure you can distinguish your significant mistakes. | ||
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KrAzYfoOL
Australia3037 Posts
you need to work on your control, and try to roam around with a small group of mm to pressure him as much as possible, rather than 1 semi-big attack and losing and simply regenerating the army and losing it again. and some overall better game speed. | ||
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Zalfor
United States1035 Posts
i'm just not good enough ^_^;;; how should i improve my control? | ||
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Alborz
Canada1551 Posts
On November 08 2006 22:33 Zalfor wrote: i reviewed my replay before posting, but i couldn't understand where i did too much wrong. i'm just not good enough ^_^;;; how should i improve my control? just play more. if you're looking for a non-melee alternative, you could try some micro UMS maps, they wont help as much as just gaming it up though. | ||
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Way
Canada565 Posts
On November 08 2006 22:33 Zalfor wrote: i reviewed my replay before posting, but i couldn't understand where i did too much wrong. i'm just not good enough ^_^;;; how should i improve my control? did u even read what i wrote T_T? | ||
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Zalfor
United States1035 Posts
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
On November 08 2006 18:57 skyglow1 wrote: Most likely, your macro wasn't up to scratch. I don't need to see the replay to predict that. The big big majority of players in TvZ do not macro well enough. If your cash went above 500 minerals, then thats not good enough macro. You can work on imprioving your macro first if you want. 500? ur joking people nowadays are macro hoes | ||
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Alborz
Canada1551 Posts
On November 08 2006 23:04 YoiChiBow wrote: 500? ur joking people nowadays are macro hoes Im confused, are you referring to 500 as being too high or too low? | ||
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Blind
United States2529 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On November 09 2006 00:07 Blind wrote: 500 is easily exaggerated. It actually really depends what part of the game you're talking about. But mid-game, it's not uncommon to have over 500, and late-game, it's definitely ok. Definitely ok? If you have the potential to have the level of mechanics to keep your micro at a good standard and still spend that extra cash to keep it as low as possible, then why not? Sure, your micro might go down the drain in late game if you try that, but if you work on the level of mechanics and fluency with mouse + keyboard then you'l be able to keep up micro with cash staying below 500 throughout the game. | ||
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Blind
United States2529 Posts
Sorry, but you just said it like anyone could easily do what you described. Please show me a replay. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
If you are winning with your current army and you macro from your current barracks etc you might still go way above 500 becouse you dont have the time to set up new barracks but anyway money in the bank tvz is not so bad always | ||
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oddeye
Canada716 Posts
On November 09 2006 05:32 Patriot.dlk wrote: 500 minerals is nothing. 2k is not to much either it depends on your income and what you need to do in the game. If you are winning with your current army and you macro from your current barracks etc you might still go way above 500 becouse you dont have the time to set up new barracks but anyway money in the bank tvz is not so bad always 500 isn't a lot, but having too much money in bank for tvz ain't great at all, better to spend now and win fight | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
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OverTheUnder
United States2929 Posts
On November 09 2006 17:35 skyglow1 wrote: Fine, I guess some gamers are too lazy to do a few more actions to keep their money down late game. Play how you want to play. "late game" trying not to get over 500 is ALOT of work, these aren't just "some gamers" watch some pro reps and see how many semi long games they stay below 500:O Also, having money in the bank later game is good when u need to start pumping out a specific unit after an enemey tech change ( random example) and other things t_t | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On November 10 2006 01:11 Drowsy wrote: riiiggghhhttt, so off of this ridiculous "OMG MACRO IS JUST HOW LOW YOU KEEP YOUR RESOURCES!1!1" bullcrap, I think you need to read through Chill's thread about shit you need to do before posting to ask for help :O I never said that...I meant below 500 as a good aim or target for someone trying to improve their macro. Sure, its unlikely they'll stay below 500 for the whole game, but the ridiculously difficult target makes the improvement larger imo. | ||
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DarK]N[exuS
China1441 Posts
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lololol
5198 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On November 10 2006 03:01 lololol wrote: The money you'll put in one unit build cycle for your facts/rax/ports late game is a lot more than 500, so keeping your money lower than this is nothing else, but completely useless. Sorry I don't understand. The 500 I'm talking about is after you've done 1 build cycle for your units, then you have some cash still left over. So you make a rax/fact/scv/expo etc. Oh ok I understand now, but I was thinking about build more often than regular build cycles, which is again a big ask but possible. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
2/3 facs = 300/450 mins assuming you make tanks 8 rax = 400 mins assuming you make MMF 2 depots = 200 mins 1 port = 100 mins assuming you make vessel/ds = 1000/1150 mins Sometimes you even need to have money for upgrades Chances are you need to be around 1000 minerals for a cycle to be optimal even when you go SK and make no tanks(more raxes will make up for that AND the marine buildtime is faster than tanks) | ||
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On November 10 2006 03:41 Guybrush wrote: 3 resource nodes 2/3 facs = 300/450 mins assuming you make tanks 8 rax = 400 mins assuming you make MMF 2 depots = 200 mins 1 port = 100 mins assuming you make vessel/ds = 1000/1150 mins Sometimes you even need to have money for upgrades Chances are you need to be around 1000 minerals for a cycle to be optimal even when you go SK and make no tanks(more raxes will make up for that AND the marine buildtime is faster than tanks) Thats why you don't just do 1 cycle after another, but spend money whenever you can (but not queuing up any units). | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On November 10 2006 02:12 skyglow1 wrote: I never said that...I meant below 500 as a good aim or target for someone trying to improve their macro. Sure, its unlikely they'll stay below 500 for the whole game, but the ridiculously difficult target makes the improvement larger imo. its even worse as a goal to a new player because they will focus on keeping their money low to the exclusion of everything else, which is just as bad as building up 3k/3k resources. | ||
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On November 10 2006 15:33 IdrA wrote: its even worse as a goal to a new player because they will focus on keeping their money low to the exclusion of everything else, which is just as bad as building up 3k/3k resources. Thats why I think its important to focus on 1 thing at a time. Like say they build up a decent macro base then they retain this level of macro while concentrating on other things like micro. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
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Blind
United States2529 Posts
Actually, the reason I brought up the ridiculous 500 mineral macro requirement was because the tone of your post made it seem like you could do it yourself. | ||
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KiRa
Korea (South)4 Posts
On November 09 2006 23:57 OverTheUnder wrote: "late game" trying not to get over 500 is ALOT of work, these aren't just "some gamers" watch some pro reps and see how many semi long games they stay below 500:O Also, having money in the bank later game is good when u need to start pumping out a specific unit after an enemey tech change ( random example) and other things t_t not realy true , i can keep my money under 500 and im not pro gamer t.t | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Way
Canada565 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2006 22:16 sMi.KiRa wrote: not realy true , i can keep my money under 500 and im not pro gamer t.t 5000*  | ||
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Alborz
Canada1551 Posts
sup | ||
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On November 10 2006 21:59 Blind wrote: It's bad to focus on the one thing you suggested because the suggested thing is impossible (or if you want to be technical, it'll take years to learn). You even said "focus on improving macro first", so he may unknowingly brush aside other important factors of the game such as timing, unit choice, micro, etc. while trying to attain what you suggested. Actually, the reason I brought up the ridiculous 500 mineral macro requirement was because the tone of your post made it seem like you could do it yourself. I'm too crap at explaining things and expressing myself so I can't really get through my idea T_T Below 500 isn't too hard a thing to achieve either. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
On November 10 2006 15:28 skyglow1 wrote: Thats why you don't just do 1 cycle after another, but spend money whenever you can (but not queuing up any units). 1 cycle doesnt mean queing up units. You're supposed to spend as little time as possible macroing, hence you're only returning to your base the moment before your previous cycle ends in terms of units coming out of the buildings. This way you will produce efficiently and continuous from your buildings assuming you're back in time. And to do the cycles (assuming you do them fast enough) you need the previous mentioned amount of money to complete them time-effectively, and not get stalled due to to insuffient resources. Assuming you'd only have 5 gateways you make zealots from lategame, then yes getting over 500 would suck, as you most defnitely hotkey all of them and spam for example 5zzzzzz etc continiously as you get new money. Then your units wont come out in waves but individually at different times out from the gateways. Chances are you wont macro like that in TvZ as its a very microoriented MU and when you get more expos than your natural, you dont have room for more than 2 raxes lategame if you have a big enough army + two scans. Your goal is to use as little time as possible macroing hence the cycles. You dont see Nada sitting above his factories waiting to get money to produce in his two last factories, when he has 10 facs. Your method of macroing is excellent early game, but as mentioned when you reach a certain income and bigger armies that require more micro you need to limit the time spent on macro very low. You dont seem to have understood my previous post please read it again. | ||
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
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Way
Canada565 Posts
don't feel bad because they cant understand u, lol ^^ | ||
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