EPTPlus when i watch pro reps i can hardly ever manage to even come close to what they seem to be able to do. They have godlike drop control and timing i just dont understand how they can do so much. But thats besides the point. Any tips?
TvT All about it
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
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_PulSe_
United States541 Posts
Plus when i watch pro reps i can hardly ever manage to even come close to what they seem to be able to do. They have godlike drop control and timing i just dont understand how they can do so much. But thats besides the point. Any tips? | ||
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joohyunee
Korea (South)1087 Posts
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BalloonFight
United States2007 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
its all about who controls the money money money money money money P.S. money is evil | ||
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PersonMan
United States113 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=44072 | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17732 Posts
edit. i went like 0-7 tvt in pgt | ||
jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
On October 07 2006 22:18 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I dont want to hijack this thread. Um i was thinking of making the same thread/topic. I have no idea what to do in tvt. In my pgt my tvz and tvp can go d+ but its my tvt which is like d--. I have no idea what im doing and what i have to do. I dont know why im doing this and what counters what what to do on some maps. Like I played tvt with dronebabo he said people dont 2 port wraith alot on luna. And i heard 2 port counters 1 fac port. Also i lose every tvt to tanks. Everytime in mid game im just macroing and the guy is at my enterance with tanks. How do i break this. Should i keep at scv to see when its coming. When its comes i can break out but if i dont see it long i cant break the contain. And than he starts turreting everywhere. Most terrans my lvl i meet have no idea about tvt. Can someone explain the basics. When to use vult+tank or gol+tank or wraith+tank. When to make bcs or something. And does your build differ from what you scout with your rax? Im just clueless about this mu. edit. i went like 0-7 tvt in pgt Wow I'm in EXACTLY the same boat. D+ TvZ, D+ TvP, D- TvT. I've been trying to improve my TvT so much it's getting really annoying. | ||
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jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
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lawl mart
United States1289 Posts
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besiger
Croatia2452 Posts
http://artofbw.atspace.com/ | ||
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SchOOl_VicTIm
Greece2394 Posts
On October 07 2006 22:40 jkillashark wrote: Somebody wrote a good TvT Strategy Dossier on WGTour.net iirc. no it wasn't good | ||
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PersonMan
United States113 Posts
On October 08 2006 06:22 BeSiGeR wrote: i find everything for my T vs Anythingthatmoves needs here http://artofbw.atspace.com/ The tvt section is not finished  | ||
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Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On October 07 2006 22:10 Plexa wrote: once you have a SOLID macro advantage (like an extra secure expo) you have basicly won its all about who controls the money money money money money money P.S. money is evil I dont play t, but wouldnt it make sense to say whoever controls the gas? I think that would be more important. | ||
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_PulSe_
United States541 Posts
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Hitokiri
Spain306 Posts
First off: Expansions, the more expansions, there is a possibility to harass better, as well as being harassed. A very good move is to expo to your nat, and then when you have 4 siege tanks move to one of the mains and expo there. Units: Tanks > Vultures > Goliaths > Vultures > Tanks. The effectiveness of a unit depends on how you use it. Mines are very good for breaking some tank lines, for delaying attacks. Tanks have great range so other units can't attack. Scvs are a very important part of TvT; scvs distract tank fire, so when you are outnumbered you can use your scvs to break out. Wraiths are good for early scv dmg, and diversion of the opponent's build order, they are, however, bad against goliaths and scans, so in middle-late game you should use them to take out scattered units as well as dropships. Dropships are amazing units, they allow the terrans to have a greater versatility, allowing you to travel faster whilst avoiding the cluter of mass units. They also work well for harassing and dividing the concentration of the enemies units. Bcs, bcs are good as well as they are bad. Bcs + tanks are one of the best combinations, they allow you to take care of mass goliaths + tanks, but are somewaht vurnerable to mass wraiths. Bcs alone suck, they die easily to wraiths and/or goliaths. Buildings: A not so known fact is that 3 facts can 95% of the time out macro 4+, since people believe that goliaths are bood for head to head fights, they are not. Keeping constant production of tanks from 3 facts beats having 5 buildings whilst only 4 are producing. Thats a very basic intro to TvT | ||
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PersonMan
United States113 Posts
From the artofbw site: Possible Openings You have...........! -Fast CC -1 fact expand -2 fact vult (with/without port) -2 fact gol (with/without port) -2 fact tank (with/without port) -2 fact vult tank (with/without port) -2 fact gol tank (with/without port) -2 fact vult gol (with/without port) <--Im gonna try this one ;D -3 or 4 fact builds -1 fact single port -1 fact double port Tell me if im wrong but from my lil tvt experience I think: Fast CC and 1 Fact Expo > 1 Fact Port and 1 Fact 2 Port? 2 Fact Gol and 2 Fac Gol/Tank > 1 Fact Port and 1 Fact 2 Port? 1 Fact Port and 1 Fact 2 Port > 2 Fact Vults and 2 Facts Tank/Vult? 2 Fact Vult and 2 Fact Tank/Vult > Fast CC and 1 Fact Expo? 2 Fact Vult and 2 Fact Tank/Vult = 2 Fact Gol and 2 Fac Gol/Tank? or maybe there all = with a lil scouting and adapting. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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PersonMan
United States113 Posts
it was my 2 fac vult gol vs his 2 port proxy wraiths. Wraiths got pwnd >< | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
On October 08 2006 15:12 PersonMan wrote: i finally found a tvt it was my 2 fac vult gol vs his 2 port proxy wraiths. Wraiths got pwnd >< Care factor: Below rock bottom | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
If you want advice, you're better off posting a rep and asking for help. The "tanks > goliaths > vults > tanks" thing is just a myth. It's really not true at all. In sufficiently large quantities or if sufficiently well placed, tanks dominate ground. TvT ground focuses entirely around tanks. How you place your tanks is more important than anything else (on land maps). Obviously this shows the significance of the tank push. It should be obvious that pushes are particularly valuable on maps where you can set up containments that are difficult to break (i.e. there are a lot of choke points -- remember, a choke point is much more than the entrance to your base; a choke point is any point that restricts the movement of their army). This should also show you the significance of dropships; strategical placement of tanks around the map. So what are the purposes of goliaths and vultures? You obviously aren't going to overrun 20 well placed tanks with goliaths or vultures even if you are way ahead in supply. Vultures allow you easy penetration in areas of bad or insufficient tank placement. For instance, say you are playing a TvT on Luna and your opponent has control of the middle, his main, his nat and the nat to another base while you control only your main ant nat. Suppose he doesn't have any tanks at the nat NOT connected to his main and suppose he left the side path to your mineral only undefended. Suppose he is at bottom left and you are at top left. To put it mildly, he's kicking your ass with the better positioning and the econ advantage, but with vultures you can even up the score a little bit by pounding the nat not connected to his main. So why not use dropships instead of vultures? Your opponent has a 1 gas advantage. Dropships are going to cost you valuable tanks that you will need later if you have any hope of reclaiming this game (Invariably you are going to want to push out just far enough so that you can send large tank forces around the side path taking your mineral only and the nat at the top right base and eventually that main base as well). If you can get that positioning, you have a chance at coming back into the game. Also, as I described the situation, his containment is imperfect, which gives you the opportunity to exploit this weakness in his positiong. Vultures are also really good scouting tools. Never undestimate the value of mine placement. If you have good eyes, you will be able to read some of his attempts at dropping you just from mines spread all over the map. If you can predict where he will drop effectively, then you will nullify his added tactical placement of tanks, making those ships and their contents essentially useless unless he is smart enough to keep them with his push. Goliaths are good for taking some of the hits that your tanks might otherwise take such as for clearing spider mines as well as keeping his air off your tank lines (drops, wraiths and floating buildings that expand his field of vision). The more the game becomes an air war, the more important goliaths become. Also, if both players have high enough supply and good positioning, vultures become essentially useless, whereas goliaths become better at exploiting weaknesses because of their greater firepower, tougher armor, more hp and making it difficult for him to defend himself using aerial units. There are three basic components to midgame TvT: tanks, dropships and wraiths. Vultures and goliaths are fine but they play a more secondary role. Tanks are to set up your positioning. Dropships expand your ability to position units. Wraiths are to limit his ability to position units. Late game, tank/BC becomes the most dominant army type, but it is highly limited in terms of speed and cost. You see tank/BC armies develop usually in positions where there is a map split and a resulting stalemate due to neither player being able to expand their position or compromise their opponent's. | ||
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Alborz
Canada1551 Posts
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MarcX
Netherlands772 Posts
On October 08 2006 19:39 Alborz wrote: nice post Mortality | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17732 Posts
On October 08 2006 19:39 Alborz wrote: nice post Mortality | ||
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AnGuRuSO-Z
95 Posts
On October 08 2006 08:56 fusionsdf wrote: [removed quote within quote] I dont play t, but wouldnt it make sense to say whoever controls the gas? I think that would be more important. Super correct | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
The idea of TvT is simple: unit placement, but how you get the right placement and how you get a good position can sometimes be difficult to understand. Anything else I need to talk about? Turret placement? Various openings? Various types of maps? Specific maps? ;; | ||
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Alborz
Canada1551 Posts
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crazie-penguin
United States1253 Posts
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Alborz
Canada1551 Posts
but I think lockdown is underused in TvT. its really effective vs tanks/bc/vessels/dropships etc. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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PersonMan
United States113 Posts
On October 09 2006 19:23 Mortality wrote: Hmmmm, cool that you guys liked my post, but did I help the thread poster any? :o The idea of TvT is simple: unit placement, but how you get the right placement and how you get a good position can sometimes be difficult to understand. Anything else I need to talk about? Turret placement? Various openings? Various types of maps? Specific maps? ;; Yes please,if you have the time. Especially openings since that might be an easier subject to understand. Question: You say Tanks are really important TvT, but why do people open with Fast Expoes, Vults, or Wraiths? Somone once told me 2 Fac tanks sucked ass. :S Something about 2 Facs=1 Fac early game... | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Tanks are the be-all and end-all of ground based TvT, yes, but in small numbers they are not particularly powerful, since once you sneak inside siege range, they have to go back to tank mode, meanwhile you are pounding the shit out of them. 2 factory tanks runs into two SERIOUS problems very early: it needs a ton of gas and by itself it is very vulnerable to to air. A third problem is exactly what I said in the last paragraph: tanks in small numbers have problems keeping enemy units at range. The fact that you went 2 factory means that you are going to try to set up positioning that limits his ability to position and opens up space for you early (containment or even game ending if he makes a mistake), but you have these problems to contend with. That is why we see better two factory choices in tank/goliath and fast vult. Tank/gol is not vulnerable to air and if the opponent uses vultures, it is much easier to keep the vultures from killing your tanks if and when you choose to siege them. Also consider that if you always move a goliath ahead of your tanks, then if a bunch of mines pop up (too many for your army to handle all at once), then you aren't losing 100+ gas on tanks. Fast vulture is the fastest mech attack available, so it relies on that superior speed to expose holes in your opponent's timing. Also, even if you can't fully capitalize by doing damage in his base, you can set up mines strategically around the map that make it hard for him to push on you, provide you with scouting information, and make it more difficult for him to expand (he will have to clear the mines first). Since it's a quick build, even if your scouting SCV dies early, you will be able to figure out your opponents strategy and react to it in time, and since you were just spending on vultures, you have a midgame gas advantage due to the gas you stored up. 2 facs = 1 fac isn't really true, but remember that the longer you stay in a 1 base (1 gas refinery) game, the more limited you will become in being able to support tanks off of 2 factories, so if he sets up good positioning early enough, then he can play defensively and expand well before you. Also, if he went fact/port, then his wraith(s) give him two advantages: extra vision for his tanks, and they pick-off tanks at the front of your lines allowing him to creep out. Fac/port is simply stronger than 2 fac PURE tank....provided the palyer using fac/port is not careless about losing units. Also, once you get 3+ tanks, then at ANY point in the game, well placed tanks in siege mode will always be able to make double their worth in kills against a tank push. If you are only 1-2 tanks, then they will just stay in tank mode and roll up next to you and kill you of course. ;; Purpose of FE: gain a critical money (GAS) advantage to get stronger midgame power. Purpose of fast vultures: expose weaknesses in your opponents strategy. Purpose of wraiths: scouting + limiting his ability to position (since he will need turrets or goliaths to cover any ground position and you are also shutting down his ability to use dropships to position units). | ||
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_Carlodajin_
Peru88 Posts
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WastedYouth
United States563 Posts
Things to take under consideration > What map are you playing? maps like luna emphasise strong ground control whereas maps like LT are all about air control (drops/wraiths) > How close are the positions? further positions mean faster expansion. Closer positions mean 2 fact and sometimes even 3 fact tomfoolery >is your opponent's build well-rounded? Can you catch your opponent with his pants down before you expand? For example if you lay a bunch of mines in front of his base and he goes pure tanks to try to clear them you can throw up 2 starports and switch to wraiths and REALLY bust his balls. Maybe your opponent is 3 fact vulture whoring so you build a dropship and put some goliaths behind his minerals. You can have some fun with these tactics but keep in mind if they fail you're going to fall way behind. anti-builds 14 cc: open with a FD TvP build except research siege. Once the first fact is done being made start on a second one for vultures. Send scvs along for the attack so they can try to bunker. Expand as the first wave heads over there. sure-thing vultures: on further spots and medium spots 2 fact tanks/gols with an academy. Build your cc in your base early and float it out when the comsats finish. Be weary of ramp blitz w/ vults: wall in or make extra marines or a vulture or two + goliath or two before getting tanks. On close spots start with a tank before making vultures to put some oomph behind your rush. goliath drops: 2 fact tanks. On close spots you can counter before expanding and on far spots you can actually expand and still counter later. Think about it. If your opponent's drops are even sort of fast and he drops as little as 1/3rd of the units he builds to harass your scvs that makes him vulnerable at his front entrance early through mid-game. two port wraiths: this is one of my favorite anti-builds. Expand after your first fact. Then throw up 3 starports. You'll find that you will outmass your opponent on wraiths about two fold making it easy to gain mid-game map control. Try to catch your opponent by surprise if possible. tactics mid-game follow-up: the most common mid-game build is to get 4 factorys for tank/gols and then get a starport for drop prospects. Even if you aren't planning on using the starport it's good to have options and to prevent your opponent from knowing you aren't. scv production: ultimately the goal of a good economy is to balance your mineral count with your gas count so that at any given moment you're 300 minerals 300 gas as opposed to 1200 minerals 100 gas. If you plan on expanding rapidly you don't need to cut scv production at all until you're done expanding. If you plan to turtle and massive drop or just play aggressive without expanding you'll want to cut scvs when your minerals and gas start to balance. If you watch most experienced gamers they'll make a few scvs, see how that effects their economy, and make more a little later if their mineral count is still too low. switch ups: Switching from mass tanks to mass wraiths, mass wraiths to mass drops, drops to mass tanks are all very effective. If you can trick your opponent or catch him off guard you can gain a huge adantage in TvT. Sun Tzu would have liked to play this match up ^_^ "inching": Tanks can shoot further than they can see. If your tanks can see your opponent's tanks you can inch such that you're within range of fire but out of range of sight and land the first hits. This can be accomplished by floating a rax, scanning, or best yet using an scv as fodder so you can get vision of their tanks while at the same time wasting your opponent's first shot. If your opponent's tanks aren't lined up perfectly you can cut down his sieged tanks one at a time. This is especially effective if you find yourself contained early on far spots (which is an extremely stupid mistake on your opponent's part). containment: most unexperienced TvT gamers prioritize containment too high GENERALLY SPEAKING. If you contain your opponent on close spots you're going to get dropped to death. On far spots his 2 fact will break your containment using the above tactic and you'll end up being the one contained. On either spots he can switch to wraiths if he hasn't already (probably the reason u were able to contain him in the first place) and force you to unsiege and go home and you'll end up contained. Don't contain unless you have a strong ground advantage or at least a profound reason. upgrades: once your vehicle weapons reach 2-0 it takes your tanks one less shell to kill your enemie's tanks assuming he isn't upgrading armor. It's for this reason that in TvT you should go for the 2-0 as soon as possible Make sure to constantly scan your opponent early/mid-game because his strategy is often subject to change. Follow these basic guidelines and you'll begin to develop a sense of timing. Once you know what counters what you won't easily lose any TvT as long as you keep a hawk eye on your opponent. And for god sakes don't take second and third expansions before you can hold them and hope you won't get scouted. It's just dumb and unnessesary and definately not viable. late game's a little more abstract so I'll let you figure that out on your own. Just remember not to abuse battlecruisers until the game really is at a stalemate or you're going to get rolled or massively dropped before the 3rd or 4th one finishes. Plus bcs are gay. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
You NEED extra SCVs. If a drop comes along or a push manages to take down an expansion, you need to be able to replace those SCVs. You DON\'T want to be stuck rebuilding 234782 SCVs. You\'d rather just transfer SCVs around from base to base and then maybe make a few more to replace ones you lost/get that extra buffer quantity again. Containment is extremely important. The concept of containment, however, extends well beyond the typical notion you find in ZvP. In ZvP, a Zerg will often contain you to just your main or just your main/nat. TvT containment is nothing like that. You\'ll find that ALL choke points around the map and ALL cliffs around the map provide opportunity to contain your opponent in some region of the map. It\'s important to recognize that notions like choke points and containment are very broad military notions, which are misinterpreted by a lot of people, many of whom don\'t really understand the strategy of the game. These notions extend well beyond what the main entrance and nat area. | ||
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Alborz
Canada1551 Posts
On October 10 2006 09:32 Mortality wrote: It's not very practical against tanks. Against a few tanks, sure, but against 6+ not practical at all. true, i was just thinking to my game where I went mm and the enemy had 4 seige, locking them down got me the game ;D | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17732 Posts
Do you have any replays of tvt. Good tvt that might show the basics or could you recommend any games. Also the importance of builds. Like does a certain build counter something? Like when i play tvt i always wonder what should i do. 1 fact port, 2 fact, 2 port, gol drop, vultures? | ||
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Midnight[yR]
Korea (South)164 Posts
On October 08 2006 12:24 GrandInquisitor wrote: just go boxer-style and mm rush every time *rawr* Haha I agree ^_^ | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3426 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
In terms of builds, fac/port is the most flexible build out there, so it's a kind of all-around build. A lot of people have difficulty using it since you can't afford to lose many units early from sloppy control. 2 fac tank/gol push is a very solid option on maps where you can set up a very solid position early. For instance, it's a really strong option on Requiem (Requiem TvT is amazingly fun for me even though it's a bit of a rock-paper-scissors match, it happens to be the case that fast push is the most consistently strong option since there is more room to succeed if you make a mistake, so it's usually just a game of pure early game tank positioning), or in vertical positions on Gaia. Gol drop isn't so common anymore because it's a bit weak in general, sacrificing power for versatility (fac/port has more or less replaced it now though). I hardly use it except on island maps or in games where I am pulling a random build out of my hat to throw off my opponent. Wraiths make it hard to be mobile with the dropship, you are lacking in firepower and the ability to set up a strong position early since you have no tanks, and it has less of an ability to expose weaknesses than fast vult. 2 port wraith is very strong wherever dropships are important for ground mobility. This not only means island and semi-island maps, but it means maps with an abundance of cliffs (it's even a fairly effective option on LT for that reason...if you can control the air with wraiths early, all natural cliffs and islands are belonging to you~), and even very large maps where walking distances are painfully long (Xeno Sky). 2 fac vults is a solid all-around option in general on ground maps, since as I said, it's good at exposing weaknesses in your opponents build, not only because you can get aggressive early, but because you can lay mines all around the map for scouting and to slow down possible pushes. The more mobility a map has, the better. It may surprise you to learn, however, that it isn't a very strong option on Requiem since often your opponent fast pushes and with the short rushing distance, there's not a lot of room to place mines to inhibit his movement and if he doesn't fast push he will very likely wall off (only takes 1 depot, so if you kill the depot with a tank later on it won't hurt him that badly). | ||
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
http://sc.gosugamers.net/replays.php?id=3025 In short, tester makes a comeback from 90 pop vs a 150 pop (maybe 120, but it was definetly in the 3 digit range.), really entertaining. | ||
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Alborz
Canada1551 Posts
On October 11 2006 13:40 QuietIdiot wrote: If anyone has this rep, it shows off the incredible chess-like antics of TvT http://sc.gosugamers.net/replays.php?id=3025 In short, tester makes a comeback from 90 pop vs a 150 pop (maybe 120, but it was definetly in the 3 digit range.), really entertaining. download to that replay doesnt work for me T_T | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17732 Posts
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Midnight[yR]
Korea (South)164 Posts
On October 09 2006 19:23 Mortality wrote: Hmmmm, cool that you guys liked my post, but did I help the thread poster any? :o The idea of TvT is simple: unit placement, but how you get the right placement and how you get a good position can sometimes be difficult to understand. Anything else I need to talk about? Turret placement? Various openings? Various types of maps? Specific maps? ;; Would it be a good idea if I went Vessel tech and use Matrix? | ||
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PersonMan
United States113 Posts
Speed or Mines first? One Addon or Double Addon? Why do some people switch to Gols, some to Tanks, some Expo, and others just make Vults non stop? Does it depend on what they scout? Do you have to cut SCVs? And for any opening, why do ppl make a vult before add-on? When do you get your Ebay? When do you get your Academy? When do you get your Armory? | ||
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WastedYouth
United States563 Posts
On October 12 2006 07:42 PersonMan wrote: I have some questions on the 2 Fac Vult opening: Speed or Mines first? One Addon or Double Addon? Why do some people switch to Gols, some to Tanks, some Expo, and others just make Vults non stop? Does it depend on what they scout? Do you have to cut SCVs? And for any opening, why do ppl make a vult before add-on? When do you get your Ebay? When do you get your Academy? When do you get your Armory? The vulture before add-on is to kill the 1 marine that shoots at the rax/kills scout and hopefully a few scvs thereafter. Sometimes people will even make 2 vults to kill the marine and the one defensive vult. One remedy is to make 2 marines to sit on your ramp and Just get the add-on. What you build depends on a few things. If the spots are close you might get a tank first to put some oomph behind your rush. On far spots people get 2 add ons and get speed + mines asap. Really it's a matter of common sense. If they have only 1 fact + expo or starport you don't need speed and you don't need an early tank, but you do need a faster armory/ebay. If they're obviously going 2 fact vults with 2 add ons you should probably just get gol/tank and academy and expand quickly inside ur base. Just use common sense. On maps like nostalgia or luna gas is tight, so people will counter vults with more vults, springing for the 3 factorys. You shouldn't cut scvs assuming you plan on taking your natural soon. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
I'm working on a rep pack. People may already have some of the replays I will show but I will include them all anyway and write a few words about what you should look at in each of them. | ||
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_PulSe_
United States541 Posts
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Alborz
Canada1551 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=other&file=TvT_Rep_Pack.zip That's a sort of first installment of replays I like. Unfortunately in February of this year my old hard drive broke (it sputtered a bit and then stopped working completely; since it was a mechanical problem that happened very suddenly I had nothing backed up and lost maybe 8k replays + the mid term I was working on -_-;; ), so my current archive is somewhat limited. If you want I can go and search for more replays that I have seen and liked. Also I didn't add anything from my private archive. I have some private replays of some good TvT players and I'd have to check with them if they will let me upload any. I wrote some brief write-ups of the games but I cut them out of this post since I think it's better to just watch the replays, enjoy them and study them. Games in there.... -Midas vs Casy @ PA from WCG Korea -NaDa vs Oov games 1 and 3 from IEF -Boxer vs Oov @ Guillo -Mind vs Shudder @ Luna -Nada vs Ggomma @ Darkness -Kouros vs Blaze @ Luna -Fantasy vs Finepix from Sandlot -Super vs KH practice game for IEF @ Luna -Super vs KH from Sandlot | ||
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Alborz
Canada1551 Posts
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17732 Posts
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