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I've got a question about this replay. It's a game I played on Luna, PvZ. He opens 2 hatch in base pool, where I open 1 gate sair. He places his third hatch at his nat, and my scout dies shortly thereafter.
My corsair scouts his den and lair, with like 2 or 3 hydra hatched at the time I arrive... Naturally, I expand with cannons, assuming lurker.
About a minute later, I'm rampaged by 20 hydras or so.
Any suggestions as to what I can do?
It's a tough situation because I see the lair + den, but I do get a look at about 8 or so hydras (which is too many for lurkers i think), and he didn't have any lings (which usually support lurkers). Were these my only warning signs? Should I have attacked sooner? What about having lings run up my ramp?
I don't think I should've gotten more cannons, since hydras >> cannons, and I couldn't get storm because I had spent so much to get an obs. I also wasted money on goons, again expecting lurker.
The only problem I can see is that I misread the 3 hatch hydra until too late, the lair threw me off. I tried stopping probes completely so I could put down 3 more gates and try to catch back up in army size, but by then it was just too late.
Rep Here: http://rapidshare.de/files/35409745/pvz.zip.html
Help plz x_x;
(This isn't a PvZ cry thread, either ^^)
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Hmm, you opened sair but then didnt follow up with quick archives for storm/DT.
You don't need robo that early even if he is going lurkers, get after expo is up and going.
If your sair had've killed his scouting lord (which was on your mini-map for a bit) and you had gone with the regular sair/dt opening.. he couldnt have done shit with his hydras. +they make good scouts.
Running 5 legless zeals around vs speed hydras is useless.. lost them for no reason.
really just watch some sair/dt reps, you wouldve had storm when they hydras came too.
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United States4991 Posts
o_O
Well, you have a sair, you should be able to see it coming because of that. Keep your sair running around so you can see if he does anything drastic like that. After that it is just a case of beating 3 hatch hydra, but that wasnt really your question...
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Because I don't have any reps of sair->dt/storm on Luna (or any similar map), I'm going to ask a lot of questions. If you know of one, or a bunch that could help me, point me in that direction and I'll let you go. :D Thanks!
On October 03 2006 19:30 siro) wrote:
Hmm, you opened sair but then didnt follow up with quick archives for storm/DT.
Well, I had scouted the Lair and so I thought that my next logical move was to get a robo, seeing as how I "knew" lurkers were coming. Since he had taken both of his gases, I figured that was a logical decision. I figured getting storm so early would just make me take longer to break out, seeing as how I'd have gotten storm first, and THEN I'd have to get robo. Should I be doing this anyway? How does that help me breakout quickly? It seems like it hurts me, unless he's going 3 hatch hydra like the Zerg did in this rep.
On October 03 2006 19:30 siro) wrote:
If your sair had've killed his scouting lord (which was on your mini-map for a bit) and you had gone with the regular sair/dt opening.. he couldnt have done shit with his hydras. +they make good scouts.
Shouldn't I send the corsair to the Zerg base first, to see what his tech is (and then setup a counter), kill any overlords vulnerable in HIS base, and then leave and kill the ones near my base? I would think that'd be the most logical way to do it. Am I wrong, or did I misunderstand?
On October 03 2006 19:30 siro) wrote:
Running 5 legless zeals around vs speed hydras is useless.. lost them for no reason.
Looking at the game now, I really can't justify doing that at all. I have NO IDEA why I sent those zealots out. I know orignally it was to clear the Zerglings sitting in front of my base, but I don't know why I sent them to the Zerg nat.  Maybe I missed the sunks or something, but that seems dumb.
On October 03 2006 19:30 siro) wrote:
really just watch some sair/dt reps, you wouldve had storm when they hydras came too.
Yep, I know usually against 3 hatch hydra you want to exp with cannons and get storm, but I didn't realize it was 3 hatch hydra until it was too late. Should I have gotten storm regardless of whether it was lurker or hydra? What do I do with the DT I make (assuming 2)?
Once again, any reps you can suggest would help a lot~
(<3 TL.Net, responses are so fast here)
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Was there anything else I could've done to be more successful?
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Well then maybe your main and only problem was losing the sair. Next time you lose it, be sure to send another scout, just in case he was faking. I've won a lot of games this way, where toss carelessly losses his sair, i switch to muta and rape the probe line.
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If you spot him going den/lair then getting storm first is perfectly fine. You sair/dted for a reason, get that expo up asap and start storm. Keep your sair alive and see if he's pumping. That way you don't get tricked by fake lurker, and if he's going all in hydra (or all in anything, really) then getting quite a few cannons is not a bad thing. Storm is better most of the time because the obs is not going to help you since you aren't going to be offensive when it comes out and doesn't help you at all on defense, whereas storm gives you the opportunity to be offensive (if he's being greedy with expos) or to defend or to harass. If he's hardcore going for a contain you probably want robo after 1 or 2 temps, but otherwise it's probably ok to wait until after you have 3, maybe even 4 temps.
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Really what is it with all of these people doing sair build not playing standard.
Since you type that you dont have any reps on luna here you go. I reccomend this game of Draco vs. Nora on luna. Even though he loses, it is a great example of the usual way to play stargate - > archives tech -> expo.
http://www.yaoyuan.com/show.php?SID=47505
If you would have played remotely like this i belive there would have been less problems. But, watchign at 8x+ its clear that there are likely other issues as well. For instance, usually you'll want to grab your gas at expo asap.
If you see mass hydra like that storm+enough cannons+rest of money on zeals is how it goes usually. This game, should have had 3 storms at the time the zerg attacked. That with zeal+cannon would have been fine. Other cases may be more difficult though.
What could you have done better though considering your situation? Not lose sair. not lose those 5zeals. Realise that many hydras means somethign is up and build more cannons at front. Have goons right behind cannons and drag probes off asap so you have a fighting chance. And so on.
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Loosing the sair is very very very bad. Scouting information is much more important than killing an extra lord. If you lose your corsair, you're at the mercy of an intelligent zerg like the one that you played--meaning, you get crushed because you have lack of information or even misinformation. If you're not fast enough to constantly scout around and babysit the sair/annoy stray overlords, then consider using shift-clicks and/or moving the sair to the side for a little while while you macro or something.
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download the sandlot week 2 games and watch fa's game 1 vs reason. reason doesn't use a fake lair, but it's toss that sairs vs hydra rush.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 03 2006 21:17 yare wrote:
download the sandlot week 2 games and watch fa's game 1 vs reason. reason doesn't use a fake lair, but it's toss that sairs vs hydra rush. that was a gg 
and yes, u shuold watch it
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Well I can't look at the replay now because I don't have bw on this computer, but your initial post doesn't make sense. Even if you had seen 8 hydras, 1 minute is not enough for him to get 12 more. 2 hatches just don't generate enough larvae for that in 30 seconds.
So basicly, you didn't scout properly. You should have seen more hydras, or a third hatchery.
Rather than getting ob, if you're gonna get cannons and expo anyway, get dt and/or storm first. No use having ob if you don't attack, and you're safe with cannons. Nony had a PvZ VOD when zerg IS going fast lurk and he still got storm before ob.
And yes, sending sair to his main first is good, but then clearing ovies close-by is VITAL when going 1-gate-sair into templar and expo.
And finally, one or two extra cannons won't put you back that far, since you're not playing at progamer level. Hydras > cannons in small numbers, but if there's no other way for you to defend (no storm, or whatever) just get more cannons. I won several games on PGT with fast expo, and getting mass cannons (7-8) if zerg was going all-in-hydra. It sux a bit for your economy, but it sux a LOT more for him since he's way back in technology/drones. Then, as soon as your storm comes out, you can just walk all over him. However, don't get too many cannons unless you know he's desperate to attack. (i.e. he tried to go with 10-ish hydras, but you had 4 cannons so he backed off and waited for more, then, if storm isn't close to being done, add a few more)
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my scout dies shortly thereafter.- noot good ^.^
With usual Sair/dt you shouldn't have problems with either one route the zerg went.
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dont lose your scout, and watch out for HIDRA SPEED!
if you see that, u know what will come...
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if you open with sair which is like a SCOUTING build and fail to scout zerg's tech then you suck
btw. I think most zergs love then a protoss starts with this build, wasn't it considered autoloss for some time?
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the whole point of going sair is the scouting. that is about 100x more important than being able to kill 1 or 2 overlords. having a sair and keeping it actively looking around his base (without getting it killed) is like having a map hack. if you opened with sair nothing he can do should surprise you. just learn from this experience that lair doesn't necessarily mean he's rushing to lurks. he could just as easily have gone muta too. keep your sair active in his base and see what he's doing. if you had done that you would've seen him massing hydras long before they attacked and been able to adequately defend it with zlots+cannons+storm.
it's analogous to a game i played yesterday where i saw with my sair he only had a couple hydras and was making a spire. i assumed since he was making a spire he was going to attack with mutas, but he just made 2 scourges and the rest hydra+lurk. you can never tell just from zerg's tech what he's going to do, because a fake building is only 150/100 or so, and is going to be useful to him later in the game anyway.
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On October 07 2006 09:58 8882 wrote:
if you open with sair which is like a SCOUTING build and fail to scout zerg's tech then you suck
btw. I think most zergs love then a protoss starts with this build, wasn't it considered autoloss for some time?
Yeah until they discovered that DTs are really helpful if Z can't get ovies around you till they get speed, so you can get expo an stuff. =P
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United States24792 Posts
The general rules which were covered above in various places, that I keep in mind when playing sair dt expo are:
Sair to zerg base, then pull it back to kill the 1-2 ovies near your choke, before the hydras can get there, otherwise your dt will complain later
Always robotics after expansion
The moment you see a den is reason enough to get storm asap. If your later scouting with sair (after killing the 1-2 ovies near choke) reveals he has a spire now you can always meld templar and get cannons up in time.
A slightly less standard choice is to get a quick reaver rather than storm to defend which will be effective vs both hydras and lurkers (if somewhere an annoying lurker is chopping away at the edge of an exposed building, run a zeolot over it and give it a couple of scarabs).
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Try to keep your scout alive and if you lose it send another one.Scouting is vital in pvz.If you still don`t manage to do that go for the safest build jujdging on what you got to see with ur 1st scout.In this case expo with storm.
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I would like to add that a fast lair while using 3 hatch hydra isn't even a "fake lair"; youu should expect fast lair even when a player is using a all in mass hydra build. You need fast ovie speed vs sair/dt regardless of your own build in order to expand outside your nat(or second nat on some maps). It is better to prepare builds that can be safe vs hydra/muta/and lurk, as a skilled zerg can switch almost seamlessly between all 3 by preparing a well timed dual tech 3 hatch build. Sair/dt while wasting very little minerals on zealots and getting quick storm/cannons accomplishes this. The key is building the perfect amount of cannons around your nexuses and getting the fastest possible storm without dying to a quick strike. This will allow you to add gates the fastest, maintain safety vs all techs due to the versitility of storm, and in general give you the best possible mid game macro. That being said it is incredibly hard to do vs a good zerg
Hydras are not auto > than cannons. Sometimes with some builds such as fast expo builds as P vs all in hydra builds P is required to mass cannons sometimes 5 or more. However once the initial hydras are stopped P will run over the zerg in minutes. There is a tv game of pusan I believe it was. Once the initial hydras fail protoss will have a huge economic and tech advantage.
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well you made the robo too early, templars should have came instead, cannons are your detectors - what micronesia said
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
every time i see this thread in the lower left i see 'beating Lake Fair' and i go 'wtf he wants to own kids at a carnival'
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On October 08 2006 14:18 intrigue wrote:
every time i see this thread in the lower left i see 'beating Lake Fair' and i go 'wtf he wants to own kids at a carnival'
rofl yeah or i keep thinking beating Lake like Lake[Name] or it just reminds me of some korean amatuer guy - _-a and that the guy cheated or something. hmm.
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Some ideas:
1. Normally you'd want storms early instead of obs early. You can storm everything zerg has, but instead you made ob, and ob can't do anything beside detecting. At least you can storm lurkers xD.
2. If you see den/lair, you should never automatically assume lurkers. He maybe just getting lairs to get the ovi speed... It will be foolish to presume lurkers while he may just be anticipating your sair/dt build with a fast speed ovi+hydras.
3. If you lost your scout, put a probe between ur base and his, hopefully you'll see it comming, and when you do, add more cannons and pull LOTS of probes off. Zeal+probe does okay vs hydras as a last resort ><
4. You should'nt lose ur sairs T_T that's kinda auto loss there hehe
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EPT
