what was ur building orders and stuff before starcraft was so famous in korea? was it just random units and no micro? for ex. attacking with firebats, goliaths, vultures, valkeryies (which is never used now), marines, ghosts. did u all ever do this kind of stuff before there were famous building orders and strategys?
Below are some things i wanna know who made up this kind of stuff.
Terran: Who made up the thing about going marines and medics against zerg? And who made up the building orders to tech? I heard boxer made most of these but...
Protoss: Building order, fast expo strategy, sairs/reavers, teching against terran.
Zerg: You all get the idea. And the awesome trick with overlords?
i used to use more firebats in TvP. i stopped using them though, unless zerg's going mutaling. then firebats save MM. TvP I used to get MM + tank. lolz.
akumufu - 8 year old SC fan from Korea? %))) Didnt play vanilla SC? BroodWar was a very good add-on for vanilla SC - almost all race got what they wanted. So it was obvious what to use for expirienced vanilla players after a month of DT or lurk rushes.
Terran - using m&m in TvZ - it was a natural solution for those who played vanilla SC. Because without stimpack terran forces were simply destroyed by zerg ground. But without medics stimpacking in wrong time was very dangerous. So Boxer didnt invented it.... Mech vs toss - i remember it in 99, (orky)Soul was experimenting it on me (no wall-in, bunker near CC) %) Dunno where did he get that idea
Zerg - Overlord scouting or what? Scouting was obvious...
Toss - its harder, but those days TOSSes had 2 points - vulnerable to muta and super mega haxor cool reavers. So - reavers were downgraded and corsairs were introduced in BW. Teching vs terran - simply dunno - think it happened when terran started to wall on LT. Fast expo - i used it in 99. As far as i remember some of the XDS members posted a strategy about it (maybe it was Grrr)
On September 30 2006 15:42 akamufu wrote: what was ur building orders and stuff before starcraft was so famous in korea? was it just random units and no micro? for ex. attacking with firebats, goliaths, vultures, valkeryies (which is never used now), marines, ghosts. did u all ever do this kind of stuff before there were famous building orders and strategys?
teaching against terran: LARRY THE WIERD aka Ssamjang invented it.
Like people said, most things was natural for experienced vanilla players. And walling with terran goes back to Warcraft II.
Naturally I had a newbish startout with many bunkers into BC. But in a week or something a friend showed me replays and tought me hotkeys so ya tech in two matchups with every race was what I did..
I remember basically do random stuff whatever (usually mass carrier, mass b/c), no scouting, and then hope for the best in one gigantic battle after about 30 minutes
On September 30 2006 16:54 travis wrote: this post is about 'before the gosus', right?
so how can it be about bw and not vanilla sc
IMHO - SC became mass popular in Korea and their overall level became much higher than the others only after the BW came out (and it didnt happened instantly). And i pointed out that main concepts of the game have borned before Korean progaming community established and started to rule everybody.
Pre-BW I didnt ever make more than 1-2 of any production building, beacuse I figured "Eventually it would be wasted mineral when I am all mined out."
And I made units in groups of 12. So I would have like 12 dragoons, and then I would make 12 carriers. Which to me was the ULTIMATE POSSIBLE ;;
After BW came out I would read strats on starcraft.org and broodwar.com and generally would just do things like fast marine/tank drop with bunkers and I only played seriously right after 1.08 came out anyway.
[B] Zerg: You all get the idea. And the awesome trick with overlords?
If you all could help me out, that'd be great
i meant as in with the mutalisks about the overlords. and actually, marine and medics wth tanks against toss is good if they only stick to goons and zealots, like anytime does. and im akamufu, and im 14 in america, i just live in america
zerg went muta/ling vs most things early, and earlier than that 2 hatch hydra raped everything in the ladder ( when 1 hatch spawned larvas faster ) against all races.
On September 30 2006 17:44 red.venom wrote: Pre-BW I didnt ever make more than 1-2 of any production building, beacuse I figured "Eventually it would be wasted mineral when I am all mined out."
rofl same here i actually just played mass bgh games i remember those days were really funny because with no decent internet connection to play @ bnet our ''clan'' go to differents cybercafes looking for challenge really good times
I think the Olv muta thing happend by mistake. When you drag the box over mutas as soon as they pop hatch, sometimes you get a olv or larva in the cntrl group. Most likely someone noticed that the mutas stacked and found out why.
How do you make the olv spin? That is something I forgot how to do because when I knew it I didn't use it.
I just think through years of playing and trial and error the players adapted into the fastest possible and most reasonable way to do something to its fullest.
Before I even knew how big b.net was, before I had the internet, and was running BW on a 64mb ram 133mhz cpu I played comps in 8-way FFAs. Stuff like 40 mutalisk armies, storming, arbiters, dragoons. Heh i just mixed random units and tried to get money. I do remember stuff like that ass world map with 3000 per patch at the mains, and there was a center expo. I'd sit there with templar and 10 goons and cannons and arbiters trying to hold it against 4 comps trying to kill me >.< I just mucked around with units and had such a basic understanding. I actualy used DAs! Then there was the rigged 12 car army that crushed everything. Man I played 8 hours long FFAs back then VS the AI oO This was 1.04 thanks to no internet. I never mass expo'd, i wonder who invented that...And stim, i barley knew that existed let alone use it.
On September 30 2006 19:14 RaGnArOkY wrote: I just think through years of playing and trial and error the players adapted into the fastest possible and most reasonable way to do something to its fullest.
The flipside is that its not really as much fun to play now. And I mean that in a purely sim-city sense. The age of experimentation is over. Now its just technicality.
On September 30 2006 17:44 red.venom wrote: Pre-BW I didnt ever make more than 1-2 of any production building, beacuse I figured "Eventually it would be wasted mineral when I am all mined out."
And I made units in groups of 12. So I would have like 12 dragoons, and then I would make 12 carriers. Which to me was the ULTIMATE POSSIBLE ;;
Me too. And if one carrier got hurt beyond the shields it'd be retreat time, that carrier would be retired to base and a new one would be built. If it's damaged then it is no longer as strong as it can possibly be.
On September 30 2006 19:10 M7Excellence wrote: I think the Olv muta thing happend by mistake. When you drag the box over mutas as soon as they pop hatch, sometimes you get a olv or larva in the cntrl group. Most likely someone noticed that the mutas stacked and found out why.
How do you make the olv spin? That is something I forgot how to do because when I knew it I didn't use it.
If you wanted it to to spin say on a command center, you center it on the cc first, then you right click somewhere else and immediately press patrol and left click on the cc. So the overlord will be patrolling between 2 very close points and will twirl round and round.
On September 30 2006 18:44 Alborz wrote: SC seemed a lot more fun "before the gosus"
why is that? and yeah, sc now is all a certain order, and only boxer seems to be the only one being able to come up with new stuff, but its not even that out of the box you know? its all ultimate micro, no revolution thing. before i knew sc was so famous, i usualy made 2 of every unit buildings and made 12 units of each and attacked like on this map called sc color money.
On September 30 2006 20:58 skyglow1 wrote: [removed quote within quote]
If you wanted it to to spin say on a command center, you center it on the cc first, then you right click somewhere else and immediately press patrol and left click on the cc. So the overlord will be patrolling between 2 very close points and will twirl round and round.
On September 30 2006 21:02 akamufu wrote: [removed quote within quote]
why is that? and yeah, sc now is all a certain order, and only boxer seems to be the only one being able to come up with new stuff, but its not even that out of the box you know? its all ultimate micro, no revolution thing. before i knew sc was so famous, i usualy made 2 of every unit buildings and made 12 units of each and attacked like on this map called sc color money.
I just guessed it would've been more fun since everyone would have their own unique strats, it wouldnt be the stock-BO's you see in most games now. Just a thought.
Battle Reports are accounts of StarCraft and StarCraft: Brood War games. These in-depth accounts are created to provide an in-depth view into the strategies and tactics employed by top players. Although we do not accept unsolicited submissions for the Battle Reports section, we do encourage our players to share their game experiences with others.
On October 03 2006 23:46 Aukai wrote: I remember before goon time was extended, PvT was just goon rush > win?
I think that's about true. 1 hatch hydra rushes were also quite valid before larva spawn was slower
And in vanilla I did tank+m pushed everything. Push1: do dmg, Push2: do more dmg Push 3: have BCs and win. Opponent was contained and got owned by BCs, I think that was my short period of gosu-ness when I got the timing down, ofcourse it didn't last more than a month or so
The first time I saw a terran Wall on temple was Elky in 99 in the final of a small tourney (he used to be protoss but played random for that tourney).
A korean player beat me PvZ with a fast expand, I has an over in his base and thought he was a newb since his timing was slow, when I noticed he had his natural, was too late...
I also saw Grrr... use Fast Expand vs Uther in a tourney in France where he was invited with Thor.
i remember basically having very little concept of macro, and playing around with weird spell usage.
like i remember a couple games using ghosts with lockdown tvp to counter carriers, then hallucination to counter lockdown (carriers clumped together so ghosts can't tell which ones are real), then EMP to counter that
on BGH i used to make for the start pylon forge and then cannons like 15 cannons mabey more
after that made 200/200 limit carriers with all upgrades it took me like 1 hour mabey more and after that made cannons all over mai base surround and then attack nad like after 1.30-2.00 hours i attacked
using marins medics or marins tanks on vanilla was obviously obvious vs z. What is interesting is the first guy using pure mech vs toss (on vanilla) which was , in first times very hard to use and to mico i guess.
I played vanilla when game come out. I made first bo 7pylon probe 2 gateway mostly played 2v2, after rush I then decide mostly I just tech to goons. I don't rember haw many probes I made. My killer strategy was on big maps where nobody knows were enemy is I won many 1v2 then just by selecting zerg and going mass muta. I made 1 hath muta and made expo for every 300 minerals I had left.
It maybe suprising but almost nobady made defence in 2v2 games that I had played, most zerg just go fast muta whithout lings, terrans marines/fierbats.Game was fun to me because I didn't care about my speed just about my decision making and I didn't have to be fast to be above average I didn't think about the fact that I was limited whit my speed.
zealots only goons was "high tech" didnt know abt upgrades wtf are spells? computers were unbeatable always forge before gate 9 cannons was a mediocre number never expand 8 probes only
yea... then i played a little more like fastest but then it was still like 100 cannons then maxout on 3-3-3 carriers...
On October 03 2006 22:38 WhatisProtoss wrote: ExecutorZileas, the #1 Beta BroodWar player before Korean-pros created many Terran and Protoss strategies, employing a lot of templar usage.
He published a lot of strategy guide build orders online.
hah i remember when i was protoss newbie before i realized T will be the race i play 15,000 lt & non money games, I read all the reports on battle.net and then i stalked Zileas on his website and he was like oh i dont play SC anymore but he gave me some storm tips that are very effective. Storm the front guy, etc.
What I consider to be the original and originator of a lot of Terran strategies is Heartcutter. He's a really old school terran who made a lot of excellent battlereports (and strategy reports) to battlereports.com.
The best part about him is that, since all his strategies were written as battereports and submitted to the website, they all have exact dates of posting, so you know exactly when, at the latest, he knew about these strategies. Unlike saying 'well boxer knew about this early on', we have, to the day, when Heartcutter had these strategies down.
By 1999 he had come to these conclusions:
TvZ: Go m&m, getting to 3/3 fast, and mass science vessels. Effectively SK terran, but in 1999.
TvP: Go for a wallin (LT) with 3 marines at the choke, then 2 factories with mines and tanks. Also published a 'deep six' guide, talking about using mass tanks (skipping vultures except for the very first one produced) to fight off mass goon containment.
TvT: Pure metal, along with wraiths. He earlier used m&m, but found it ineffective. Again this is the standard strategy nowadays (or some variant thereof), but he had it written down in mid 1999.
He's also credited on the battlereport website as an 'originator of many terran strategies'.
Basically, Heartcutter had decided upon the main strategies used today and even codified them in battlereport strategy posts, back in 1999. And the dating is undisputable: the battelreport is timestamped when it is submitted, so its not subjective like 'I think X knew about Y strategy back around 99/2000', its to the day
In 1999 I reinvented starcraft, as well as most of the strategies you see today.
Shame that those koreans kidnapped me and forced me to tell the secrets. On my way back I asked for my lawyer if I had a case of egame copyright, but he denied. Later on I found out the reason for his negative attitude was that he played SC as well, and was making good use of all the BOs.
GG
No one remembers me though, cuz my name was hard to spell. =( NebuchadnezzarSchwarzenegger
Seriously, I used to use the computer as a role model, and thought that a combination of all units force and special abilities was the key to success. So usually I would go 2 barracks, 1 fac, exp, start port, fac, sci, star port. And go around making ghosts, bcs, tanks, mnm, vults, goliath with all the reaseaches. Then try to use them all to my best. Optic flare on observers, lockdwn carriers, irradiate mutas, nuke ccs, etc
I think Agent911 invented BBS rush, considered the first cheese (he played it on a small 2 players ladder map and won a lot with it) but i can't remember where i read this.
I think the Deep Six was Barracks, not Factories. It was using Marines, Medics, and Ghosts versus Protoss from 6 Barracks. But this was after he had already invented the "Bunkless wallin" and "Mechanized Terran" versus Protoss.
TvP: Go for a wallin (LT) with 3 marines at the choke, then 2 factories with mines and tanks. Also published a 'deep six' guide, talking about using mass tanks (skipping vultures except for the very first one produced) to fight off mass goon containment.
On October 04 2006 18:20 Mindcrime wrote: [removed quote within quote]B]On October 04 2006 07:49 bearnet2001 wrote:
TvP: Go for a wallin (LT) with 3 marines at the choke, then 2 factories with mines and tanks. Also published a 'deep six' guide, talking about using mass tanks (skipping vultures except for the very first one produced) to fight off mass goon containment.
[/B]
Er... That's not what Deep Six was.[/QUOTE]
yea deep six was wallin in then going 6 barracks m&m vs toss....I remember reading that battlereport when it came out. Sadly, I played protoss for the next 5 years after that, but finally was able to do it to FA one day.
Heart cutter still plays too, he is on my f list on west! (as if i still play though =/) i cant find my SC CD, only my BW one...
On October 04 2006 23:11 maleorderbride wrote: [removed quote within quote]
yea deep six was wallin in then going 6 barracks m&m vs toss....I remember reading that battlereport when it came out. Sadly, I played protoss for the next 5 years after that, but finally was able to do it to FA one day.
Heart cutter still plays too, he is on my f list on west! (as if i still play though =/) i cant find my SC CD, only my BW one...
On October 04 2006 18:50 Teroru wrote: [removed quote within quote]
wtf? who were you?
I am $playaz$-Syn / $playaz$-Wubby
lol i have no clue what name i used back then sorry
I faintly remember both of the names u listed i wasn't in playaz, myself. I played alot of bgh with diablo, and played alot of LT with... was his name xeros? xeno? I think he was probably the best player in the clan.
i also remember playing alot with god-of-w@r.. at least I think that was his name. he was pretty good back then
On October 05 2006 00:26 Fedaykin wrote: Does anyone have a clue why they call it that....?
"One major use of vanilla is in flavoring ice cream: the most common flavour of ice cream is vanilla, and thus most people consider it to be the "default" flavor. By analogy, the term "plain vanilla" or just "vanilla" is used as a synonym for "plain"." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanilla )
One off the first times i played SC in pccafe i had a haaard time figuring out how to turn creep into sunken colony ^^ And for 15 minutes i think i never had more than 2 hatches and 20 units :-) GoSU!!
i went straight for battlecruisers every time. then started bitching when i got raped before building a single unit, so i demanded island maps. didnt work.
i didn't want to share this because it works for me when protoss doesn't expand, but what it is is blocking off your tech against the toss and his initial zealot rush and if hte toss doesn't do fast expand, you do 2 hatch fast burrow upgrade and break his wall by stacking lings with burrow and unburrowing them. The way I time it, speedlings should follow shortly as well. This is all in and it usually works under the circumstances that the toss doesn't find out what you're doing and doesn't make that forge in time.
of course you can do it with drones but for me its more micro that relies on 3 drones, drone drill. w/e
Before I knew the world of progamers I was a total newb...
I only started playing at about 1.07/1.08 (2001-ish?) and most of the maps were either shared bases or predecessors of Fastest Possible...
Kept running my marine/firebat "armies" into masses of cannons at chokes, I thought lining your base perimeter with cannons/turrets was hardcore gosu and what experts all did.
Then I learned the 12 stargate/24 carrier no rush 15, and then I thought I was god -.-''
Vs computer I used to do a reverse wall in on the protoss choke, making supplys/rax down the ramp w/ floating ebay to preven toss from comming down the ramp. haha xD
i remember when i first got sc i played single player sometimes. i would make "Good" maps and give myself no minerals and comps like 100000000 then i would keep restarting till i got my starting location (which was always at some really good spot realtive to the comps. i would do all the cheats and just fuck around with units killing comps.
you know, like power overwhelming and food for thought then mass MC to win lol. i remember always wondering what stasis field was and when i used it for the first time i thought i could nuke then stasis the ghost ad it would still fall.
Wouldnt the first "Before gosus" be all kind of playtester/ developers of the game. That actually made the different units for different purposes... Some units/ abilities coming directly from the predecessors of starcraft warcraft 1 and 2 ... Other coming from other games or new. Either way, i dont think that different players would find something "new" that is that obvious like using "mech vs toss" without the developers actually realizing it/ encouraging it. After all that is one of the concepts of assymetrie that they used to sell the game.