EPTBy yours truly. I've been working on it since about last October with the SC community in mind. It's quite broad, and the guide itself is relatively long. Hopefully it's a help to those in a jam with Zerg, those learning Zerg, those searching for a read, etc. Insightful criticism, suggestions and corrections are much appreciated. Pray you like it!
! [G] 12 Hatch Zerg Guide
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listal
United States228 Posts
By yours truly. I've been working on it since about last October with the SC community in mind. It's quite broad, and the guide itself is relatively long. Hopefully it's a help to those in a jam with Zerg, those learning Zerg, those searching for a read, etc. Insightful criticism, suggestions and corrections are much appreciated. Pray you like it! | ||
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artofmagic
United States1951 Posts
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LazyTorrasque
United States125 Posts
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Chanoipy
Canada320 Posts
Why don't you just build the 350 minerals of zerglings he's given you and run him over, or tech to mutas and harrass him to death? | ||
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
Therefore, in Starcraft, there are three ways of getting "ahead" of your opponent and therefore having a successful attack. a) Expanding - allows you to have a greater economy and hence a larger macro than him b) Teching - allows you to hurt him becuase your units are efficient at killing his (ala lurker/marine medic) or can hurt his mineral line (dropship for harassment, mutalisk), or prevent him from attacking (say, DT in shuttle vs Terran push) c) Attacking - if he is doing too much of a or b, the way to stop that is c, hence why pvp is all about the first expand and going up to 4-5 gates before it's thrown down. Whether a-b-c or is the best decision solely is based on matchups, positions on map, and the maps themselves. For example, in ZvT, often they will do an a, b (fast expand, sunkens - tech to lair), use the b to get an a (mutalisk contain, lurker containing), then b again (to hive, or speed drop for further contain), then finally c. However, it all depends on what you scout that ultimately decides what is the best choice - if you scout a 1fac cc in the very early stages of development with obs, you can go double expand, tech to DT drop, or atttack with 3 gate + shuttle. If it's late, your options are still the same but a much slower (and less effective) chance of success. If you let your opponent get away with one of these options without really forcing him to pay for it somehow, you will certainly lose. This is why in low level TvP T's bitch about Protoss being unstoppable - they have little concept of timing and the Protosses aren't very good with it either, Terran expands, Protoss expands, Protoss keeps pumping probes becuase he doesn't know the Terran should attack now, Terran wants to wait until 24 tank, Protoss suddenly has so much money he goes 13-15 gateway vs the Terran 5-6, Terran pushes out, gets raped, calls imbalance. Good guide! | ||
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radiaL
Andorra2690 Posts
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Sorrow_eyes
United States1007 Posts
O and exalted, good points  K just finished the whole thing... It seems that Z knows what is P doing the whole game! O the doomsday ~_~ | ||
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listal
United States228 Posts
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
Ideally, you need to realize that if it's 2 base vs 2 base, you need to get an academy quickly, becuase his options are: 2 base -> carrier 2 base -> DT -> expand 2 base -> Reaver harass -> expand 2 base -> Island All require comsat. If he's going 3 gas defiler in Zerg vs Terran, what should the Terran be doing, attacking straight into lurker ling? Expanding? Teching, and if so, what? Then of course the whole concept of "being ahead, how much can you get away with to even "increase" the lead" (aka, double expanding, how many probes can you get away with based on how many turrets / starport / whatever you see), and the concept of harassment completely blurrs timing and makes Starcraft the way it is. | ||
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[GiTM]-Ace
United States4935 Posts
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NovaTheFeared
United States7229 Posts
-Some of the advice was either incomplete/not explained well like \"you absolutely must have 6 sunks vs. 3 rax\". No. You may gradually build up to 5-6 sunks IF your muta harass or lurk/ling stuff isn\'t doing it, but you shouldn\'t be making 6 early. Just imagine making 4 and hatch 3 on time. Much better unless the terran is charging you with a giant M&M army RIGHT NOW. -ZvZ: I still think 12 hatch 11 pool vs. 9 pool is bad times, much worse than you say. And if they get cheesy and pool earlier than that it\'s GG on the spot. Luckily most zergs will go 12 gas/pool and 12 hatch is advantage there. I like the guide quite a bit, there are very few builds that really work vs. all races (even if they are to varying degrees). For example vs. random I like to go 12 pool 12 hatch/gas if Z, and 3 hatch @ ~15 if T or P. I don\'t hatch first because random zerg is almost always 9 pool thinking I will hatch first ^^; I think you can go a long way with a 9 pool, 10/9 overlord into 3 hatch vs all too, although that is much harder and requires excellent multitasking to micro your first 6 lings plus balance your econ. | ||
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Caution
2059 Posts
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listal
United States228 Posts
On July 02 2005 00:49 nova_442 wrote: I like how you cover aspects of adapting to different strategies for each race but 12 hatch 11 pool isn\'t the optimal way to open every game, even though you can give yourself a chance with it vs. almost anything (the purpose of the guide, yes?). -Some of the advice was either incomplete/not explained well like \"you absolutely must have 6 sunks vs. 3 rax\". No. You may gradually build up to 5-6 sunks IF your muta harass or lurk/ling stuff isn\'t doing it, but you shouldn\'t be making 6 early. Just imagine making 4 and hatch 3 on time. Much better unless the terran is charging you with a giant M&M army RIGHT NOW. -ZvZ: I still think 12 hatch 11 pool vs. 9 pool is bad times, much worse than you say. And if they get cheesy and pool earlier than that it\'s GG on the spot. Luckily most zergs will go 12 gas/pool and 12 hatch is advantage there. I like the guide quite a bit, there are very few builds that really work vs. all races (even if they are to varying degrees). For example vs. random I like to go 12 pool 12 hatch/gas if Z, and 3 hatch @ ~15 if T or P. I don\'t hatch first because random zerg is almost always 9 pool thinking I will hatch first ^^; I think you can go a long way with a 9 pool, 10/9 overlord into 3 hatch vs all too, although that is much harder and requires excellent multitasking to micro your first 6 lings plus balance your econ. You're right, but I only meant this guide to be for 12-hatch. I'll write 12 pool, 11-10 pool/gas, 9 pool, 10/9 pool + 11 hatch, etc. things in the future. I have plans!  | ||
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
I don't agree with some things but it's ok in overall. GJ. | ||
Empyrean
17015 Posts
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listal
United States228 Posts
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NeX-HamartiA
United States244 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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NovaTheFeared
United States7229 Posts
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[GiTM]-Ace
United States4935 Posts
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LastWish
2015 Posts
Some things are wrong. Zerg almost never uprgades +1 range weapon, instead u always get +1 armor. Reason : every unit benefits from armor, lurkers +1dmg are almost no change. Even if terran has +1 armor he will sim his marines and thus(-10hp) and if the marines are already in combat positions with medics, medic is able to heal some dmg between 2 lurker shots... | ||
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listal
United States228 Posts
my reply is very dry, but anyway, can you please name the other things that are wrong for me? it is appreciated | ||
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DooMeR
United States1519 Posts
-.-; | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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THC-303
Canada113 Posts
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
i don't know if you mentioned this, but also i like to do 10/9 hatchery, 9 overlord, 9 pool, 3 drones after. i thought it was very common to do this | ||
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listal
United States228 Posts
i only love you doomer XOXO. | ||
ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
 After deciding to learn Zerg to remedy this, I quit because I sucked so bad.Now I have new motivation to go at it again. | ||
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gulii
Sweden2791 Posts
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lebowskiguy
Greece201 Posts
This is why in low level TvP T's bitch about Protoss being unstoppable - they have little concept of timing and the Protosses aren't very good with it either, Terran expands, Protoss expands, Protoss keeps pumping probes becuase he doesn't know the Terran should attack now, Terran wants to wait until 24 tank, Protoss suddenly has so much money he goes 13-15 gateway vs the Terran 5-6, Terran pushes out, gets raped, calls imbalance. Good guide! omg. This feels so ridiculously true. lol True insight! | ||
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KageMan
India50 Posts
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KageMan
India50 Posts
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Sadir
Vatican City State1176 Posts
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oddeye
Canada716 Posts
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Nyovne
Netherlands19135 Posts
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
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Return
Ivory Coast856 Posts
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On June 08 2006 07:40 oddeye wrote: At some point in the Robotic/Stargate part you say get a spire for scourge while you already said to tech to spire to get muta. Both. BTW As of late it seems you have to register to read it i think. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On June 08 2006 12:03 tKd_ wrote: if he goes fast expand zvz does 3 hatch really work? I would think it would work if you do mass ling style instead of focusing on muta. The way I see it zvz goes like this: if he does fast tech you can mass ling to win or cripple him. If he does fast expand and you have done fast tech you can still win with some ling pressure. zvz can take advantage of both extremes, but someone clarify =/ Put it this way, if he 12 hatchs expands vs your 12 hatch main, he can do the EXACT SAME thing as you, though he has to look after his nat hatch, if you mass lings he can make just as many, though he will probably 1-2 sunk and pump some drones, and your tech wont' be faster than his and he will have 2 gas. And if he scouts you without drones on gas its basically GG as he pums extra lings +more sunks and when he gets 2-3 muta he has map control. IMO its hard to 12 hatch main vs 12 hatch expand, the thing to do is make him sunk up and expand yourself, the 3 hatch solution also allows you to reasonably mass lings without him being able to counter easily | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
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crazie-penguin
United States1253 Posts
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On July 01 2005 21:59 exalted wrote: If Player A and Player B have identical macro/micro ability, when Player A attacks Player B he will lose, every single time. Except for that whole "strategy" thing. Like positioning of attack, higher ground, better attack micro than defense micro, HAVING A BIGGER FORCE, HAVING DIFFERENT UNITS, HAVING UPGRADES, etc. There are countless variables that would make player A have an advantage over player B. If what you're saying is true, the only way to win in SC against a player of your skill level would be to never initiate an attack until they attacked first. | ||
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ZaplinG
United States3818 Posts
Name: TeamLiquid Password: 1a2a3a | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On June 08 2006 23:49 ZaplinG wrote: I've made a public account for all to use. Name: TeamLiquid Password: 1a2a3a Heh, I thought I saw that account Like 1023492942 people joined since this guide has been bumped @_@ and I think with the big guide more people will be reading at the same time. Its not that hard to sign up here. | ||
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ZaplinG
United States3818 Posts
On June 08 2006 12:10 Slayer91 wrote: Put it this way, if he 12 hatchs expands vs your 12 hatch main, he can do the EXACT SAME thing as you, though he has to look after his nat hatch, if you mass lings he can make just as many, though he will probably 1-2 sunk and pump some drones, and your tech wont' be faster than his and he will have 2 gas. And if he scouts you without drones on gas its basically GG as he pums extra lings +more sunks and when he gets 2-3 muta he has map control. IMO its hard to 12 hatch main vs 12 hatch expand, the thing to do is make him sunk up and expand yourself, the 3 hatch solution also allows you to reasonably mass lings without him being able to counter easily This is not a small factor. Dividing your defences puts too much stress on your already small army. A rushing zerg can crush this. If you can stop his lings from running past your expo into your main, then go for it. Otherwise, it is safer to do it in base. | ||
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ToT)MidiaN(
England2183 Posts
On June 09 2006 02:37 ZaplinG wrote: This is not a small factor. Dividing your defences puts too much stress on your already small army. A rushing zerg can crush this. If you can stop his lings from running past your expo into your main, then go for it. Otherwise, it is safer to do it in base. It's not a problem in the majority of maps, you can easily cover your ramp and your nat hatch and drones all at once in maps such as RushHour, LT and also Luna in a couple of positions. It's especially easy to defend an expand in 12 hatch exp v 12 hatch main games on these maps, however in 12 hatch exp v 12 pool->speed upgrade then the 12 pooler maybe able to take advantage of the situation even on maps like LT,Rushhour etc. In other maps, such as r-point for example then this may be a more significant factor, and this is why pool -> expo or 12 hatch expo builds are popular in maps like RushHour and not in maps like R-Point. | ||
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osmark
Austria15 Posts
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cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
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inlagdsil
Canada957 Posts
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
"damn another zerg guide -.-" epic bumpage | ||
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mSLeGenD
115 Posts
!oh well, welcome to TL I guess. | ||
SilverskY
Korea (South)3086 Posts
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