On September 26 2011 18:11 baubo wrote: It's weird people want him to copy Best. Best to me seems to have a very precise build: Tech to arbiters while making about 1-2 control groups of dragoons(from what I can see), then mass gateways into mass zealot reinforcements for push break. Obviously I don't know the details, but his build seems to be geared towards a certain army size at a certain point. Similar to terran's 2-1 push.
Best have PvT down to a science, so I think he's the one to copy in terms of builds. Stork relies much more on harass, although not as much as some players. Best have better management than Stork and his army engagement skills, ie "1a2a3a skills" are equal. Stork have better game sense and individual unit micro, but that's just two more reasons why you shouldn't try to follow Stork's builds. A player with really good game sense will just confuse you, and a player with really good micro will give you unrealistic expectations. Best is efficient and rigid. He's the perfect player to study if you want to understand how PvT works.
On September 26 2011 18:11 baubo wrote: It's weird people want him to copy Best. Best to me seems to have a very precise build: Tech to arbiters while making about 1-2 control groups of dragoons(from what I can see), then mass gateways into mass zealot reinforcements for push break. Obviously I don't know the details, but his build seems to be geared towards a certain army size at a certain point. Similar to terran's 2-1 push.
Best have PvT down to a science, so I think he's the one to copy in terms of builds. Stork relies much more on harass, although not as much as some players. Best have better management than Stork and his army engagement skills, ie "1a2a3a skills" are equal. Stork have better game sense and individual unit micro, but that's just two more reasons why you shouldn't try to follow Stork's builds. A player with really good game sense will just confuse you, and a player with really good micro will give you unrealistic expectations. Best is efficient and rigid. He's the perfect player to study if you want to understand how PvT works.
Are you sure you're not thinking of Jangbi instead of Stork? Stork doesn't harass to kill stuff. Stork harasses in PvT is of the same philosophy as Savior's patented muta harass in ZvT. In that his harass is for delaying and "poking around" more than anything else.
PvT is suppose to be reactionary from the protoss perspective. You're suppose to add gateways in response to terran adding factories. You macro when terran's pushing, and expanding when terran's turtling. Turning PvT to a science is just the wrong way to play the game. Best can do it because he's a progamer and he understand the intricacies. But IMO it's still the wrong style because you don't feel for the flow. At its core, PvT is about reacting to terran play. And at least at my level, my observers tend to not get killed very fast and generally give me enough of a maphack.
On September 26 2011 18:11 baubo wrote: It's weird people want him to copy Best. Best to me seems to have a very precise build: Tech to arbiters while making about 1-2 control groups of dragoons(from what I can see), then mass gateways into mass zealot reinforcements for push break. Obviously I don't know the details, but his build seems to be geared towards a certain army size at a certain point. Similar to terran's 2-1 push.
Best have PvT down to a science, so I think he's the one to copy in terms of builds. Stork relies much more on harass, although not as much as some players. Best have better management than Stork and his army engagement skills, ie "1a2a3a skills" are equal. Stork have better game sense and individual unit micro, but that's just two more reasons why you shouldn't try to follow Stork's builds. A player with really good game sense will just confuse you, and a player with really good micro will give you unrealistic expectations. Best is efficient and rigid. He's the perfect player to study if you want to understand how PvT works.
Are you sure you're not thinking of Jangbi instead of Stork? Stork doesn't harass to kill stuff. Stork harasses in PvT is of the same philosophy as Savior's patented muta harass in ZvT. In that his harass is for delaying and "poking around" more than anything else.
PvT is suppose to be reactionary from the protoss perspective. You're suppose to add gateways in response to terran adding factories. You macro when terran's pushing, and expanding when terran's turtling. Turning PvT to a science is just the wrong way to play the game. Best can do it because he's a progamer and he understand the intricacies. But IMO it's still the wrong style because you don't feel for the flow. At its core, PvT is about reacting to terran play. And at least at my level, my observers tend to not get killed very fast and generally give me enough of a maphack.
There are heaps of Stork games where he has just finished the game with harass, they are less to do with delaying the opponent, and more to do ridiculous amounts of economic damage.
Storks PvT games are a lot shorter than anyone else's, he is very aggressive with his harass and if he doesn't win the game outright with reavers, he will with his dragoon micro shortly afterwards. His timings and early game is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, which is why he has a winning record against the TBLS who constantly try to play macro games against him.
Terran plays reactive to both Z and P most of the time. Even if P goes 12 nexus, Terran has to react to it one way or another. The only time P has to react to T really is against cheese.
On September 26 2011 10:54 ninini wrote: I think expansion timings should be adjusted according to your timing attack timings. Always and only expand before building up for a timing attack, and when moving out during the attack, when you're the strongest. Best is a great example of this mindset. He follows complex build orders in PvT, starting out with a 3 base arbiter push, and then follows it up with a timing push on 5-6 bases. Expansion timings are not about Gateway numbers, probes, or how long the game have been going on, it's all about when you want to push out with your next attack. If you're doing a 4 base push, you can take the expansion earlier than if you're going for a 5 base push, because since you're doing a earlier attack, you can survive a potential attack on a lesser gateway count.
I think this is one of the reasons why Zerg seems to be the easiest race to master. Zerg as a race is built with timing attacks in mind, and this makes them very flexible when it comes to endgame timing attacks.
Zerg is the easiest race to master?
I'm a random player and I find ZvP to be the hardest matchup by far. You have to micro mutas to snipe templar, scourge to snipe corsair, dodge storms, snipe observers, burrow lurkers, micro defilers, and its so easy to just lose to 1a2a3a at any stage of the game. The amount of very precise multitasking and decision making you have to do is ridiculous.
On September 26 2011 13:25 writer22816 wrote: A progamer who is going all out unit production have about 3 Gateways per saturated base. Adjust according to your macro ability.
What? Even with perfect macro, on 6 bases and 18 gateways you would be floating a ton of money.
Hey, someone said, that the perfect saturation for one base would be 2.5 times the mineral patches. Is this number the same for every race (if not whats the perfect number for zerg) ? How can I see how many workers I use at one base (since I can only select 11 units at a time)?
On September 27 2011 19:45 Weimar wrote: Hey, someone said, that the perfect saturation for one base would be 2.5 times the mineral patches. Is this number the same for every race (if not whats the perfect number for zerg) ? How can I see how many workers I use at one base (since I can only select 11 units at a time)?
You will have to count them, eventually you will just look at the mining line and get a feeling if thats undersaturated/oversaturated.
On September 27 2011 19:45 Weimar wrote: Hey, someone said, that the perfect saturation for one base would be 2.5 times the mineral patches. Is this number the same for every race (if not whats the perfect number for zerg) ? How can I see how many workers I use at one base (since I can only select 11 units at a time)?
Usually you just don't, you should know how many workers you have in the early game as a part of your build order, and in the mid and lategames you will have varying degrees of under or oversaturation that you can't really help due to heavy dependency on your expansion timings. Ultimately it just comes down to doing a visual check to get a feel for how saturated the mineral line is, and experience.
While optimal worker saturation is pretty much the same for each race, realistically they will have very different worker saturations in practice.
Zerg is the most obvious one, your worker saturation in general will vary from game to game just due to how much droning you can get away with, but as a rule all your bases will always be undersaturated because standard zerg play always relies on having lots of hatches, being ahead on expos and using the extra mining rate due to undersaturation as a way to have increased income.
Protoss will usually be just saturated, or slightly undersaturated versus terrans, and just saturated or slightly oversaturated vs zergs and protoss.
Terran in general will tend to be oversaturated so that they have some scvs to transfer on to a new expo since they tend to be the slowest expoers.
Wow.. I don't have any advice for you because I'm a noob.. I'm an avid fan of BW though, so I'll say this: I love you for giving SC:BW a chance... So many people I meet right now just shrug BW after seeing the graphics (which in my opinion are beautiful) but you sir, are awesome~
On September 26 2011 18:11 baubo wrote: It's weird people want him to copy Best. Best to me seems to have a very precise build: Tech to arbiters while making about 1-2 control groups of dragoons(from what I can see), then mass gateways into mass zealot reinforcements for push break. Obviously I don't know the details, but his build seems to be geared towards a certain army size at a certain point. Similar to terran's 2-1 push.
Best have PvT down to a science, so I think he's the one to copy in terms of builds. Stork relies much more on harass, although not as much as some players. Best have better management than Stork and his army engagement skills, ie "1a2a3a skills" are equal. Stork have better game sense and individual unit micro, but that's just two more reasons why you shouldn't try to follow Stork's builds. A player with really good game sense will just confuse you, and a player with really good micro will give you unrealistic expectations. Best is efficient and rigid. He's the perfect player to study if you want to understand how PvT works.
This is true to a sense... Best has one of the best engagement decisions... Although sometimes it's just fail decisions... Most of the time, he makes perfect decisions when and where to attack to get the best out of each push... After a push, his monster macro with ~20 gates allows him to replenish quickly... But someone pointed out his zealot movements to absorb splash and minimize damage to his forces~ and when he uses magic units, he's a beast~
All this information is more than I had expected, thank you all for the advice surrounding GW/Nexus ratio, appropriate builds, and so on. and personally I am enjoying BW more than SC2, it feels like the unit composition is so much more established; thank you all again for picking up this thread!!!
On September 24 2011 19:26 sluggaslamoo wrote: Depends on how many probes you have and how many bases.
In BW if you split your probes evenly between 4 bases you will have a lot more minerals than if you just keep it to 2 bases. In SC2 3 bases is all you need to get maximum income, but in BW you are better off having more even if you have less probes. So you will have more gateways per base, depending on how many bases you have.
You can support up to 4 gateways on 1 base, about 8-12 on 2 bases, once on 4-5 bases against Terran you probably won't even be able to count how many gateways you have. What generally happens though is that on one base you won't have that many gateways because you want to expand.
Here are some starter gateway heavy builds, pretty prevalent in the lower leagues, although they get less popular the higher you go.
3 gate goon in PvP. 10/15 gate goon range PvT Bulldog PvT 2 gate zealots PvZ
But really just build as many gateways as you think you will need, when you get better macro you will find yourself making less gateways.
What? You cant support 12 gateways on two base unless you have horrible macro. it's between 6-8, really the question being if you just want consistent troop production with enough extra resources for an expansion or tech, or just pure troops.
On September 28 2011 10:19 Bisu-Fan wrote: Wow.. I don't have any advice for you because I'm a noob.. I'm an avid fan of BW though, so I'll say this: I love you for giving SC:BW a chance... So many people I meet right now just shrug BW after seeing the graphics (which in my opinion are beautiful) but you sir, are awesome~
I bet you he plays SCII on low graphics. I do, and there literally is very little difference, and BW looks better in some ways.
EPT
