This is quite interesting. The theory and logic behind it is quite simple. However, on a bigger picture, instead of providing you with "maximized scouting", in reality, it seems more of you denying the P of scouting by checking the Overlord position. The probability of being scouted is going to be 33.3%, but by doing your scouting pattern, you re-affirm that 1/3rd probability, instead of him catching the overlord and causing your 12hatch to get blocked.
Very nice work; will definitely use this from now on :-)
On September 08 2011 15:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree with JMave on the subject of scouting direction
I always scout towards the opponents closest natural and send my drone across the map. this serves two purposes - to check the center for proxies, and to maximize the time i have to mine and move drones to place a hatchery before he knows where i am, while placing my overlords in the most important location for my scouting needs.
If i instead scouted his main first in a close position (on any map) and saw his nexus, that would both allow him to send a probe right away to my base to harass me and cut corners, and then I would have to send my overlord to his natural anyway to see if he fast expanded and how many cannons hes putting down. (if 1base play, the gateways as usually nearby the ramp too)
I dont actually need to see his base until the moment before i make my initial 6 (or less) lings, but he needs to see my base earlier than that in order to cannon and nexus at the appropriate time to counter my opening. Therefore, by having all scouting paths converge to around the same time of possible discovery for me, as opposed to being able to see him super early some of the time, I maximize my possible advantage and minimize my possible disadvantage.
what's wrong with scouting each other early on python? because of the close proximity of bases on python, even if you allow the protoss to scout you early you can just overpool. overpool forces 2 cannons before nex no matter what on python. he's not really going to be able to cut more corners than he would if he scouted you on the 2nd try.
I overpool most of my games regardless, but the fact that he is able to come into my base, harass my drones, and pylon my hatchery is something that i want to avoid. Also a cannon/nexus/cannon opening deals with overpool fine if you block with probes for a few seconds. if you get two cannons first automatically zerg can just make 2 lings instead of 6 and be in an economic advantage.
By not scouting towards the natural, you also delay the scouting timing of your 2nd overlord, which has to fly all the way to the farther base to see whats up. This means if the protoss is there, you are going to be in the dark for too long and will have to make 6lings automatically and possibly send out a drone to make a 3rd base before knowing if he FEd.
i always go 6 lings with overpool on python because of the common 2gate on python. even with jmave's scouting pattern i doubt you will scout a 2gate before you make lings (if he even is at the across position)? dont think the drone harass is too bad since lings come out soon anyways. just a bit annoying. and if he pylons my hatchery he will definitely have to 2cannon first and i can just kill the cannon with my lings fairly quickly. cannon/nexus on python needs more probes pulled than other maps (wide choke so you cant get a super tight simcity to block with minimal probes) and in a protoss perspective i dont think its worth it... probes cant just only block the ramp because then i can kill the cannon with 6 lings. and he can't have just probes around the cannon because then i can just runby. kind of a situation you want to avoid with toss.
i think jmave's scouting pattern is better only when the protoss is at the across position. also, nearly every progamer/gosu korean reps on python show the zerg scouting with the white scouting pattern.
For ZvT, it is a for sure thing that you will use the white path because you dont want your overlord to get sniped by marines. For ZvP however, the case is different and you can maximize the cross by air position with the second overlord. See JD's fpvod at 29 mins. Even he uses the orange path first and not the white.
Okay just to get timings straight. The first overlord that moves in the orange path reaches the same time as the second overlord in white. This is around 12 supply timing, which regardless, my drone will be sent to cross spot. If he spawns cross spot and does a 2 gate, my natural hatch will be in time to get sunkens and more lings to defend a 2 gate. cross spot 2 gate in his case is disadvantageous because I will have more time to prepare. The timing of the first overlord in orange path is not as delayed as you think.
On September 08 2011 15:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree with JMave on the subject of scouting direction
I always scout towards the opponents closest natural and send my drone across the map. this serves two purposes - to check the center for proxies, and to maximize the time i have to mine and move drones to place a hatchery before he knows where i am, while placing my overlords in the most important location for my scouting needs.
If i instead scouted his main first in a close position (on any map) and saw his nexus, that would both allow him to send a probe right away to my base to harass me and cut corners, and then I would have to send my overlord to his natural anyway to see if he fast expanded and how many cannons hes putting down. (if 1base play, the gateways as usually nearby the ramp too)
I dont actually need to see his base until the moment before i make my initial 6 (or less) lings, but he needs to see my base earlier than that in order to cannon and nexus at the appropriate time to counter my opening. Therefore, by having all scouting paths converge to around the same time of possible discovery for me, as opposed to being able to see him super early some of the time, I maximize my possible advantage and minimize my possible disadvantage.
what's wrong with scouting each other early on python? because of the close proximity of bases on python, even if you allow the protoss to scout you early you can just overpool. overpool forces 2 cannons before nex no matter what on python. he's not really going to be able to cut more corners than he would if he scouted you on the 2nd try.
I overpool most of my games regardless, but the fact that he is able to come into my base, harass my drones, and pylon my hatchery is something that i want to avoid. Also a cannon/nexus/cannon opening deals with overpool fine if you block with probes for a few seconds. if you get two cannons first automatically zerg can just make 2 lings instead of 6 and be in an economic advantage.
By not scouting towards the natural, you also delay the scouting timing of your 2nd overlord, which has to fly all the way to the farther base to see whats up. This means if the protoss is there, you are going to be in the dark for too long and will have to make 6lings automatically and possibly send out a drone to make a 3rd base before knowing if he FEd.
i always go 6 lings with overpool on python because of the common 2gate on python. even with jmave's scouting pattern i doubt you will scout a 2gate before you make lings (if he even is at the across position)? dont think the drone harass is too bad since lings come out soon anyways. just a bit annoying. and if he pylons my hatchery he will definitely have to 2cannon first and i can just kill the cannon with my lings fairly quickly. cannon/nexus on python needs more probes pulled than other maps (wide choke so you cant get a super tight simcity to block with minimal probes) and in a protoss perspective i dont think its worth it... probes cant just only block the ramp because then i can kill the cannon with 6 lings. and he can't have just probes around the cannon because then i can just runby. kind of a situation you want to avoid with toss.
i think jmave's scouting pattern is better only when the protoss is at the across position. also, nearly every progamer/gosu korean reps on python show the zerg scouting with the white scouting pattern.
For ZvT, it is a for sure thing that you will use the white path because you dont want your overlord to get sniped by marines. For ZvP however, the case is different and you can maximize the cross by air position with the second overlord. See JD's fpvod at 29 mins. Even he uses the orange path first and not the white. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDbCerq_gXk&t=29m00s
Okay just to get timings straight. The first overlord that moves in the orange path reaches the same time as the second overlord in white. This is around 12 supply timing, which regardless, my drone will be sent to cross spot. If he spawns cross spot and does a 2 gate, my natural hatch will be in time to get sunkens and more lings to defend a 2 gate. cross spot 2 gate in his case is disadvantageous because I will have more time to prepare. The timing of the first overlord in orange path is not as delayed as you think.
i've seen more people scouting white pattern than not. the same applies to white scouting pattern. you can get the drone scout in on time to defend against any 2gate. i don't see how this scouting pattern is superior to the white scouting pattern. if anything, its preference really.
your earlier posts seem to imply to me that its not just preference but it is worse off. the thing is that you waste the use of scouting with the second overlord without exploiting the close air to air distance.
okay so let's see. i get both overlords into 2 other spawning bases before drone scout. for white pattern, you only get one and you have to send a drone out to one of the remaining two while for me, i can send a drone directly to cross spot and i can see proxies on the way.
i can get overlords into his base much faster. if he spawns at cross spot, it will be important for me to see at 27/27 supply timing if i have to make hydras or if i can move into my normal mid-game drone count.
even for overpool, him getting two cannons first but me getting hatch blocked is more eco damaging to me than for him to get two cannons first because regardless, probe count is still getting stronger while i am larvae capped onto one hatchery.
if you still open overpool regardless of him seeing your overlord, then both overlords reach two bases at the same time when your lings pop so you can be sure where he is spawning and you have information on any type of holes in his wall to exploit.
On September 08 2011 15:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree with JMave on the subject of scouting direction
I always scout towards the opponents closest natural and send my drone across the map. this serves two purposes - to check the center for proxies, and to maximize the time i have to mine and move drones to place a hatchery before he knows where i am, while placing my overlords in the most important location for my scouting needs.
If i instead scouted his main first in a close position (on any map) and saw his nexus, that would both allow him to send a probe right away to my base to harass me and cut corners, and then I would have to send my overlord to his natural anyway to see if he fast expanded and how many cannons hes putting down. (if 1base play, the gateways as usually nearby the ramp too)
I dont actually need to see his base until the moment before i make my initial 6 (or less) lings, but he needs to see my base earlier than that in order to cannon and nexus at the appropriate time to counter my opening. Therefore, by having all scouting paths converge to around the same time of possible discovery for me, as opposed to being able to see him super early some of the time, I maximize my possible advantage and minimize my possible disadvantage.
what's wrong with scouting each other early on python? because of the close proximity of bases on python, even if you allow the protoss to scout you early you can just overpool. overpool forces 2 cannons before nex no matter what on python. he's not really going to be able to cut more corners than he would if he scouted you on the 2nd try.
I overpool most of my games regardless, but the fact that he is able to come into my base, harass my drones, and pylon my hatchery is something that i want to avoid. Also a cannon/nexus/cannon opening deals with overpool fine if you block with probes for a few seconds. if you get two cannons first automatically zerg can just make 2 lings instead of 6 and be in an economic advantage.
By not scouting towards the natural, you also delay the scouting timing of your 2nd overlord, which has to fly all the way to the farther base to see whats up. This means if the protoss is there, you are going to be in the dark for too long and will have to make 6lings automatically and possibly send out a drone to make a 3rd base before knowing if he FEd.
i always go 6 lings with overpool on python because of the common 2gate on python. even with jmave's scouting pattern i doubt you will scout a 2gate before you make lings (if he even is at the across position)? dont think the drone harass is too bad since lings come out soon anyways. just a bit annoying. and if he pylons my hatchery he will definitely have to 2cannon first and i can just kill the cannon with my lings fairly quickly. cannon/nexus on python needs more probes pulled than other maps (wide choke so you cant get a super tight simcity to block with minimal probes) and in a protoss perspective i dont think its worth it... probes cant just only block the ramp because then i can kill the cannon with 6 lings. and he can't have just probes around the cannon because then i can just runby. kind of a situation you want to avoid with toss.
i think jmave's scouting pattern is better only when the protoss is at the across position. also, nearly every progamer/gosu korean reps on python show the zerg scouting with the white scouting pattern.
For ZvT, it is a for sure thing that you will use the white path because you dont want your overlord to get sniped by marines. For ZvP however, the case is different and you can maximize the cross by air position with the second overlord. See JD's fpvod at 29 mins. Even he uses the orange path first and not the white. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDbCerq_gXk&t=29m00s
Okay just to get timings straight. The first overlord that moves in the orange path reaches the same time as the second overlord in white. This is around 12 supply timing, which regardless, my drone will be sent to cross spot. If he spawns cross spot and does a 2 gate, my natural hatch will be in time to get sunkens and more lings to defend a 2 gate. cross spot 2 gate in his case is disadvantageous because I will have more time to prepare. The timing of the first overlord in orange path is not as delayed as you think.
i've seen more people scouting white pattern than not. the same applies to white scouting pattern. you can get the drone scout in on time to defend against any 2gate. i don't see how this scouting pattern is superior to the white scouting pattern. if anything, its preference really.
your earlier posts seem to imply to me that its not just preference but it is worse off. the thing is that you waste the use of scouting with the second overlord without exploiting the close air to air distance.
okay so let's see. i get both overlords into 2 other spawning bases before drone scout. for white pattern, you only get one and you have to send a drone out to one of the remaining two while for me, i can send a drone directly to cross spot and i can see proxies on the way.
i can get overlords into his base much faster. if he spawns at cross spot, it will be important for me to see at 27/27 supply timing if i have to make hydras or if i can move into my normal mid-game drone count.
even for overpool, him getting two cannons first but me getting hatch blocked is more eco damaging to me than for him to get two cannons first because regardless, probe count is still getting stronger while i am larvae capped onto one hatchery.
if you still open overpool regardless of him seeing your overlord, then both overlords reach two bases at the same time when your lings pop so you can be sure where he is spawning and you have information on any type of holes in his wall to exploit.
i actually think its worse overall but i wouldnt say its stupid to do it sometimes. although the 2nd overlord is quite useless if your opponent is not adjacent, i would much rather get quick scouting. if you drone scout at 12 (with 2 drones going out to nat, 1 for hatch 1 for scout) the first overlord is not even halfway to the across base. at that timing, my 1st ovie would already be in the adjacent base. if you were planning to go 12hatch the protoss could still probe block you regardless of 12hatch/overpool because protoss always scouts across first if it doesnt see an overlord. any forward gate 9/9 or proxy gates will outright kill you 99% of the time regardless if you scout it because you already 12hatched. so i dont see how that will help you there. besides, who honestly proxies on python? ive only seen proxy gates on that map maybe 2 or 3 times out of the 1000+ games i've played on it lol. your scout pattern is good for mid game but quite terrible early game tbh. which is bad because its so much easier to get boned in early game zvp on python.
you say you would rather get quick scouting but if your opponent is not adjacent, how quick are you able to scout all places? firstly, your drone scout is usually sent out with your hatchery drone regardless of overpool or 12 hatch. so if you like to overpool, your scouting is delayed. not as quick as you like to scout.
if he still decides to scout across, then it is just being unlucky. the whole point about this is to maximize your chances with your scouting. it seems like you have not tried this out yet because my second, first and scouting drone reach the other 3 expansions at approximately the same time with 12 hatch. and i didn't get the relation between drone scouting at 12 and the timing of my overlord being less than half-way, which is actually not true.
even if proxies are rare, they still happen. 12 hatch is slightly advantageous over 9 pool because i can distract his zealots to attack my hatchery, giving my pool more time to complete and i can cancel my natural hatchery right before it completes. since i 12 hatch and my drone scout moves across, i can see proxies if it happens.
so what if he does not do early game pressure but does in fact fast expand? then you are left in the dark already without being able to see things in his base. if you follow white scouting path, your first overlord has to make a longer distance into his main compared to my first overlord.
On September 08 2011 15:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree with JMave on the subject of scouting direction
I always scout towards the opponents closest natural and send my drone across the map. this serves two purposes - to check the center for proxies, and to maximize the time i have to mine and move drones to place a hatchery before he knows where i am, while placing my overlords in the most important location for my scouting needs.
If i instead scouted his main first in a close position (on any map) and saw his nexus, that would both allow him to send a probe right away to my base to harass me and cut corners, and then I would have to send my overlord to his natural anyway to see if he fast expanded and how many cannons hes putting down. (if 1base play, the gateways as usually nearby the ramp too)
I dont actually need to see his base until the moment before i make my initial 6 (or less) lings, but he needs to see my base earlier than that in order to cannon and nexus at the appropriate time to counter my opening. Therefore, by having all scouting paths converge to around the same time of possible discovery for me, as opposed to being able to see him super early some of the time, I maximize my possible advantage and minimize my possible disadvantage.
what's wrong with scouting each other early on python? because of the close proximity of bases on python, even if you allow the protoss to scout you early you can just overpool. overpool forces 2 cannons before nex no matter what on python. he's not really going to be able to cut more corners than he would if he scouted you on the 2nd try.
I overpool most of my games regardless, but the fact that he is able to come into my base, harass my drones, and pylon my hatchery is something that i want to avoid. Also a cannon/nexus/cannon opening deals with overpool fine if you block with probes for a few seconds. if you get two cannons first automatically zerg can just make 2 lings instead of 6 and be in an economic advantage.
By not scouting towards the natural, you also delay the scouting timing of your 2nd overlord, which has to fly all the way to the farther base to see whats up. This means if the protoss is there, you are going to be in the dark for too long and will have to make 6lings automatically and possibly send out a drone to make a 3rd base before knowing if he FEd.
i always go 6 lings with overpool on python because of the common 2gate on python. even with jmave's scouting pattern i doubt you will scout a 2gate before you make lings (if he even is at the across position)? dont think the drone harass is too bad since lings come out soon anyways. just a bit annoying. and if he pylons my hatchery he will definitely have to 2cannon first and i can just kill the cannon with my lings fairly quickly. cannon/nexus on python needs more probes pulled than other maps (wide choke so you cant get a super tight simcity to block with minimal probes) and in a protoss perspective i dont think its worth it... probes cant just only block the ramp because then i can kill the cannon with 6 lings. and he can't have just probes around the cannon because then i can just runby. kind of a situation you want to avoid with toss.
i think jmave's scouting pattern is better only when the protoss is at the across position. also, nearly every progamer/gosu korean reps on python show the zerg scouting with the white scouting pattern.
For ZvT, it is a for sure thing that you will use the white path because you dont want your overlord to get sniped by marines. For ZvP however, the case is different and you can maximize the cross by air position with the second overlord. See JD's fpvod at 29 mins. Even he uses the orange path first and not the white. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDbCerq_gXk&t=29m00s
Okay just to get timings straight. The first overlord that moves in the orange path reaches the same time as the second overlord in white. This is around 12 supply timing, which regardless, my drone will be sent to cross spot. If he spawns cross spot and does a 2 gate, my natural hatch will be in time to get sunkens and more lings to defend a 2 gate. cross spot 2 gate in his case is disadvantageous because I will have more time to prepare. The timing of the first overlord in orange path is not as delayed as you think.
i've seen more people scouting white pattern than not. the same applies to white scouting pattern. you can get the drone scout in on time to defend against any 2gate. i don't see how this scouting pattern is superior to the white scouting pattern. if anything, its preference really.
your earlier posts seem to imply to me that its not just preference but it is worse off. the thing is that you waste the use of scouting with the second overlord without exploiting the close air to air distance.
okay so let's see. i get both overlords into 2 other spawning bases before drone scout. for white pattern, you only get one and you have to send a drone out to one of the remaining two while for me, i can send a drone directly to cross spot and i can see proxies on the way.
i can get overlords into his base much faster. if he spawns at cross spot, it will be important for me to see at 27/27 supply timing if i have to make hydras or if i can move into my normal mid-game drone count.
even for overpool, him getting two cannons first but me getting hatch blocked is more eco damaging to me than for him to get two cannons first because regardless, probe count is still getting stronger while i am larvae capped onto one hatchery.
if you still open overpool regardless of him seeing your overlord, then both overlords reach two bases at the same time when your lings pop so you can be sure where he is spawning and you have information on any type of holes in his wall to exploit.
i actually think its worse overall but i wouldnt say its stupid to do it sometimes. although the 2nd overlord is quite useless if your opponent is not adjacent, i would much rather get quick scouting. if you drone scout at 12 (with 2 drones going out to nat, 1 for hatch 1 for scout) the first overlord is not even halfway to the across base. at that timing, my 1st ovie would already be in the adjacent base. if you were planning to go 12hatch the protoss could still probe block you regardless of 12hatch/overpool because protoss always scouts across first if it doesnt see an overlord. any forward gate 9/9 or proxy gates will outright kill you 99% of the time regardless if you scout it because you already 12hatched. so i dont see how that will help you there. besides, who honestly proxies on python? ive only seen proxy gates on that map maybe 2 or 3 times out of the 1000+ games i've played on it lol. your scout pattern is good for mid game but quite terrible early game tbh. which is bad because its so much easier to get boned in early game zvp on python.
you say you would rather get quick scouting but if your opponent is not adjacent, how quick are you able to scout all places? firstly, your drone scout is usually sent out with your hatchery drone regardless of overpool or 12 hatch. so if you like to overpool, your scouting is delayed. not as quick as you like to scout.
if he still decides to scout across, then it is just being unlucky. the whole point about this is to maximize your chances with your scouting. it seems like you have not tried this out yet because my second, first and scouting drone reach the other 3 expansions at approximately the same time with 12 hatch. and i didn't get the relation between drone scouting at 12 and the timing of my overlord being less than half-way, which is actually not true.
even if proxies are rare, they still happen. 12 hatch is slightly advantageous over 9 pool because i can distract his zealots to attack my hatchery, giving my pool more time to complete and i can cancel my natural hatchery right before it completes. since i 12 hatch and my drone scout moves across, i can see proxies if it happens.
so what if he does not do early game pressure but does in fact fast expand? then you are left in the dark already without being able to see things in his base. if you follow white scouting path, your first overlord has to make a longer distance into his main compared to my first overlord.
if my opponent is not adjacent I can just use my drone to scout. my ovie can still get in the base to scout during midgame. ? yeah your drone scout is sent out with your hatchery drone which is what i said lol. if you overpool you dont need an early scout because the zerglings will scout for you anyways and you wont die to any early aggression build because of the early lings.
its not being unlucky. every protoss scouts across if they dont see an ovie at the bottom of their base. your scouting method only provides a few more seconds of midgame scouting IF the protoss is indeed across. if its cross position, both scouting patterns get an ovie in at the same time. if its adjacent, white scouting pattern gets an ovie in earlier.
while your pattern does scout for proxies earlier in the middle, you're going to see forward gates (which is much more common on python) later than the white scouting pattern. this is because you send drone cross position and let the 1st ovie do the scouting for you. with white pattern, the drone arrives at across position natural much faster than an ovie can. and even if you do scout the proxy earlier, whats the point? you already put your 12hatch down and im going to see it early enough with my white scouting pattern anyways. i can still cancel the hatch/prepare sunken/lings as necessary.
if he FE's im not going to be more in the dark than your scouting pattern is unless he is indeed across position. and even so it's not that much of a difference because my overlord will soon arrive there with my pattern anyways. protoss is FEing, the protoss doesnt have any attacking potential during the time im in the dark. its really not a problem at all.
"yeah your drone scout is sent out with your hatchery drone which is what i said lol". but if you read your previous post you said "if you drone scout at 12 (with 2 drones going out to nat, 1 for hatch 1 for scout) the first overlord is not even halfway to the across base". so really, what relation are you getting at? how does drone scout affect overlord scouting timing?
anyway, it just seems like you are trying to prove me wrong. which in this case, i am not going to pursue this matter. it seems like you have not read my article because clearly, i mentioned my drone moving towards the across natural and not my first overlord.
On September 09 2011 05:10 FyRe_DragOn wrote: [quote]
I overpool most of my games regardless, but the fact that he is able to come into my base, harass my drones, and pylon my hatchery is something that i want to avoid. Also a cannon/nexus/cannon opening deals with overpool fine if you block with probes for a few seconds. if you get two cannons first automatically zerg can just make 2 lings instead of 6 and be in an economic advantage.
By not scouting towards the natural, you also delay the scouting timing of your 2nd overlord, which has to fly all the way to the farther base to see whats up. This means if the protoss is there, you are going to be in the dark for too long and will have to make 6lings automatically and possibly send out a drone to make a 3rd base before knowing if he FEd.
i always go 6 lings with overpool on python because of the common 2gate on python. even with jmave's scouting pattern i doubt you will scout a 2gate before you make lings (if he even is at the across position)? dont think the drone harass is too bad since lings come out soon anyways. just a bit annoying. and if he pylons my hatchery he will definitely have to 2cannon first and i can just kill the cannon with my lings fairly quickly. cannon/nexus on python needs more probes pulled than other maps (wide choke so you cant get a super tight simcity to block with minimal probes) and in a protoss perspective i dont think its worth it... probes cant just only block the ramp because then i can kill the cannon with 6 lings. and he can't have just probes around the cannon because then i can just runby. kind of a situation you want to avoid with toss.
i think jmave's scouting pattern is better only when the protoss is at the across position. also, nearly every progamer/gosu korean reps on python show the zerg scouting with the white scouting pattern.
For ZvT, it is a for sure thing that you will use the white path because you dont want your overlord to get sniped by marines. For ZvP however, the case is different and you can maximize the cross by air position with the second overlord. See JD's fpvod at 29 mins. Even he uses the orange path first and not the white. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDbCerq_gXk&t=29m00s
Okay just to get timings straight. The first overlord that moves in the orange path reaches the same time as the second overlord in white. This is around 12 supply timing, which regardless, my drone will be sent to cross spot. If he spawns cross spot and does a 2 gate, my natural hatch will be in time to get sunkens and more lings to defend a 2 gate. cross spot 2 gate in his case is disadvantageous because I will have more time to prepare. The timing of the first overlord in orange path is not as delayed as you think.
i've seen more people scouting white pattern than not. the same applies to white scouting pattern. you can get the drone scout in on time to defend against any 2gate. i don't see how this scouting pattern is superior to the white scouting pattern. if anything, its preference really.
your earlier posts seem to imply to me that its not just preference but it is worse off. the thing is that you waste the use of scouting with the second overlord without exploiting the close air to air distance.
okay so let's see. i get both overlords into 2 other spawning bases before drone scout. for white pattern, you only get one and you have to send a drone out to one of the remaining two while for me, i can send a drone directly to cross spot and i can see proxies on the way.
i can get overlords into his base much faster. if he spawns at cross spot, it will be important for me to see at 27/27 supply timing if i have to make hydras or if i can move into my normal mid-game drone count.
even for overpool, him getting two cannons first but me getting hatch blocked is more eco damaging to me than for him to get two cannons first because regardless, probe count is still getting stronger while i am larvae capped onto one hatchery.
if you still open overpool regardless of him seeing your overlord, then both overlords reach two bases at the same time when your lings pop so you can be sure where he is spawning and you have information on any type of holes in his wall to exploit.
i actually think its worse overall but i wouldnt say its stupid to do it sometimes. although the 2nd overlord is quite useless if your opponent is not adjacent, i would much rather get quick scouting. if you drone scout at 12 (with 2 drones going out to nat, 1 for hatch 1 for scout) the first overlord is not even halfway to the across base. at that timing, my 1st ovie would already be in the adjacent base. if you were planning to go 12hatch the protoss could still probe block you regardless of 12hatch/overpool because protoss always scouts across first if it doesnt see an overlord. any forward gate 9/9 or proxy gates will outright kill you 99% of the time regardless if you scout it because you already 12hatched. so i dont see how that will help you there. besides, who honestly proxies on python? ive only seen proxy gates on that map maybe 2 or 3 times out of the 1000+ games i've played on it lol. your scout pattern is good for mid game but quite terrible early game tbh. which is bad because its so much easier to get boned in early game zvp on python.
you say you would rather get quick scouting but if your opponent is not adjacent, how quick are you able to scout all places? firstly, your drone scout is usually sent out with your hatchery drone regardless of overpool or 12 hatch. so if you like to overpool, your scouting is delayed. not as quick as you like to scout.
if he still decides to scout across, then it is just being unlucky. the whole point about this is to maximize your chances with your scouting. it seems like you have not tried this out yet because my second, first and scouting drone reach the other 3 expansions at approximately the same time with 12 hatch. and i didn't get the relation between drone scouting at 12 and the timing of my overlord being less than half-way, which is actually not true.
even if proxies are rare, they still happen. 12 hatch is slightly advantageous over 9 pool because i can distract his zealots to attack my hatchery, giving my pool more time to complete and i can cancel my natural hatchery right before it completes. since i 12 hatch and my drone scout moves across, i can see proxies if it happens.
so what if he does not do early game pressure but does in fact fast expand? then you are left in the dark already without being able to see things in his base. if you follow white scouting path, your first overlord has to make a longer distance into his main compared to my first overlord.
if my opponent is not adjacent I can just use my drone to scout. my ovie can still get in the base to scout during midgame. ? yeah your drone scout is sent out with your hatchery drone which is what i said lol. if you overpool you dont need an early scout because the zerglings will scout for you anyways and you wont die to any early aggression build because of the early lings.
its not being unlucky. every protoss scouts across if they dont see an ovie at the bottom of their base. your scouting method only provides a few more seconds of midgame scouting IF the protoss is indeed across. if its cross position, both scouting patterns get an ovie in at the same time. if its adjacent, white scouting pattern gets an ovie in earlier.
while your pattern does scout for proxies earlier in the middle, you're going to see forward gates (which is much more common on python) later than the white scouting pattern. this is because you send drone cross position and let the 1st ovie do the scouting for you. with white pattern, the drone arrives at across position natural much faster than an ovie can. and even if you do scout the proxy earlier, whats the point? you already put your 12hatch down and im going to see it early enough with my white scouting pattern anyways. i can still cancel the hatch/prepare sunken/lings as necessary.
if he FE's im not going to be more in the dark than your scouting pattern is unless he is indeed across position. and even so it's not that much of a difference because my overlord will soon arrive there with my pattern anyways. protoss is FEing, the protoss doesnt have any attacking potential during the time im in the dark. its really not a problem at all.
"yeah your drone scout is sent out with your hatchery drone which is what i said lol". but if you read your previous post you said "if you drone scout at 12 (with 2 drones going out to nat, 1 for hatch 1 for scout) the first overlord is not even halfway to the across base". so really, what relation are you getting at? how does drone scout affect overlord scouting timing?
anyway, it just seems like you are trying to prove me wrong. which in this case, i am not going to pursue this matter. it seems like you have not read my article because clearly, i mentioned my drone moving towards the across natural and not my first overlord.
my point is that with the white scouting pattern, you will scout the across base's natural much earlier than your scouting pattern. your scouting pattern has the 1st ovie going to the across position first with your drone going cross position. since a drone is quick and an ovie is slow, its only natural that the white scouting pattern will get the drone scout at the across position much earlier. it was never about a drone scout affecting the overlord scout.
its not about proving you wrong, this thread pretty much supports your scouting method as the superior method when it is not. I mean, you even stated that your advice might be wrong so I don't think theres anything wrong with some healthy debate. hope you don't take it too personally. and yes i did read your article clearly, where in my post does it suggest that i did not? "Yes indeed I drone scout cross position."
again as i said before, the drone moves to the across position not the overlord. i move my scouting drone right to the across position when i move to make my hatchery. so if you move your drone scout to 3 o clock first, how is your drone scout faster compared to mine when i send it across first since you will have no knowledge of whether he spawns at 3 o clock or not.
For ZvT, it is a for sure thing that you will use the white path because you dont want your overlord to get sniped by marines. For ZvP however, the case is different and you can maximize the cross by air position with the second overlord. See JD's fpvod at 29 mins. Even he uses the orange path first and not the white. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDbCerq_gXk&t=29m00s
Okay just to get timings straight. The first overlord that moves in the orange path reaches the same time as the second overlord in white. This is around 12 supply timing, which regardless, my drone will be sent to cross spot. If he spawns cross spot and does a 2 gate, my natural hatch will be in time to get sunkens and more lings to defend a 2 gate. cross spot 2 gate in his case is disadvantageous because I will have more time to prepare. The timing of the first overlord in orange path is not as delayed as you think.
i've seen more people scouting white pattern than not. the same applies to white scouting pattern. you can get the drone scout in on time to defend against any 2gate. i don't see how this scouting pattern is superior to the white scouting pattern. if anything, its preference really.
your earlier posts seem to imply to me that its not just preference but it is worse off. the thing is that you waste the use of scouting with the second overlord without exploiting the close air to air distance.
okay so let's see. i get both overlords into 2 other spawning bases before drone scout. for white pattern, you only get one and you have to send a drone out to one of the remaining two while for me, i can send a drone directly to cross spot and i can see proxies on the way.
i can get overlords into his base much faster. if he spawns at cross spot, it will be important for me to see at 27/27 supply timing if i have to make hydras or if i can move into my normal mid-game drone count.
even for overpool, him getting two cannons first but me getting hatch blocked is more eco damaging to me than for him to get two cannons first because regardless, probe count is still getting stronger while i am larvae capped onto one hatchery.
if you still open overpool regardless of him seeing your overlord, then both overlords reach two bases at the same time when your lings pop so you can be sure where he is spawning and you have information on any type of holes in his wall to exploit.
i actually think its worse overall but i wouldnt say its stupid to do it sometimes. although the 2nd overlord is quite useless if your opponent is not adjacent, i would much rather get quick scouting. if you drone scout at 12 (with 2 drones going out to nat, 1 for hatch 1 for scout) the first overlord is not even halfway to the across base. at that timing, my 1st ovie would already be in the adjacent base. if you were planning to go 12hatch the protoss could still probe block you regardless of 12hatch/overpool because protoss always scouts across first if it doesnt see an overlord. any forward gate 9/9 or proxy gates will outright kill you 99% of the time regardless if you scout it because you already 12hatched. so i dont see how that will help you there. besides, who honestly proxies on python? ive only seen proxy gates on that map maybe 2 or 3 times out of the 1000+ games i've played on it lol. your scout pattern is good for mid game but quite terrible early game tbh. which is bad because its so much easier to get boned in early game zvp on python.
you say you would rather get quick scouting but if your opponent is not adjacent, how quick are you able to scout all places? firstly, your drone scout is usually sent out with your hatchery drone regardless of overpool or 12 hatch. so if you like to overpool, your scouting is delayed. not as quick as you like to scout.
if he still decides to scout across, then it is just being unlucky. the whole point about this is to maximize your chances with your scouting. it seems like you have not tried this out yet because my second, first and scouting drone reach the other 3 expansions at approximately the same time with 12 hatch. and i didn't get the relation between drone scouting at 12 and the timing of my overlord being less than half-way, which is actually not true.
even if proxies are rare, they still happen. 12 hatch is slightly advantageous over 9 pool because i can distract his zealots to attack my hatchery, giving my pool more time to complete and i can cancel my natural hatchery right before it completes. since i 12 hatch and my drone scout moves across, i can see proxies if it happens.
so what if he does not do early game pressure but does in fact fast expand? then you are left in the dark already without being able to see things in his base. if you follow white scouting path, your first overlord has to make a longer distance into his main compared to my first overlord.
if my opponent is not adjacent I can just use my drone to scout. my ovie can still get in the base to scout during midgame. ? yeah your drone scout is sent out with your hatchery drone which is what i said lol. if you overpool you dont need an early scout because the zerglings will scout for you anyways and you wont die to any early aggression build because of the early lings.
its not being unlucky. every protoss scouts across if they dont see an ovie at the bottom of their base. your scouting method only provides a few more seconds of midgame scouting IF the protoss is indeed across. if its cross position, both scouting patterns get an ovie in at the same time. if its adjacent, white scouting pattern gets an ovie in earlier.
while your pattern does scout for proxies earlier in the middle, you're going to see forward gates (which is much more common on python) later than the white scouting pattern. this is because you send drone cross position and let the 1st ovie do the scouting for you. with white pattern, the drone arrives at across position natural much faster than an ovie can. and even if you do scout the proxy earlier, whats the point? you already put your 12hatch down and im going to see it early enough with my white scouting pattern anyways. i can still cancel the hatch/prepare sunken/lings as necessary.
if he FE's im not going to be more in the dark than your scouting pattern is unless he is indeed across position. and even so it's not that much of a difference because my overlord will soon arrive there with my pattern anyways. protoss is FEing, the protoss doesnt have any attacking potential during the time im in the dark. its really not a problem at all.
"yeah your drone scout is sent out with your hatchery drone which is what i said lol". but if you read your previous post you said "if you drone scout at 12 (with 2 drones going out to nat, 1 for hatch 1 for scout) the first overlord is not even halfway to the across base". so really, what relation are you getting at? how does drone scout affect overlord scouting timing?
anyway, it just seems like you are trying to prove me wrong. which in this case, i am not going to pursue this matter. it seems like you have not read my article because clearly, i mentioned my drone moving towards the across natural and not my first overlord.
my point is that with the white scouting pattern, you will scout the across base's natural much earlier than your scouting pattern. your scouting pattern has the 1st ovie going to the across position first with your drone going cross position. since a drone is quick and an ovie is slow, its only natural that the white scouting pattern will get the drone scout at the across position much earlier. it was never about a drone scout affecting the overlord scout.
its not about proving you wrong, this thread pretty much supports your scouting method as the superior method when it is not. I mean, you even stated that your advice might be wrong so I don't think theres anything wrong with some healthy debate. hope you don't take it too personally. and yes i did read your article clearly, where in my post does it suggest that i did not? "Yes indeed I drone scout cross position."
again as i said before, the drone moves to the across position not the overlord. i move my scouting drone right to the across position when i move to make my hatchery. so if you move your drone scout to 3 o clock first, how is your drone scout faster compared to mine when i send it across first since you will have no knowledge of whether he spawns at 3 o clock or not.
wait, are you referring to "across position" as cross position? im referring to across as 3 oclock if you are at 6 oclock. you said before that you send drone cross position.
i meant across as 12 o clock if i spawn at 6. so my drone goes to 12 o clock from 6 and overlord moves to 3 o clock.
On September 07 2011 11:37 NationInArms wrote: Sorry if this was answered before, but is this BW Series only going to focus on Zerg?
Hi I did not answer this question. But since you asked, I'll be doing things like building placement for P and T, how to maximize turret placement and next in my series is how to mine minerals more effectively.
Oh, good. I really need to improve my simcity (Terran). Thanks so much for these guides!
I do this scouting as well, and I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. I'd like a quick add--send the drone to the position directly across from you, and you'll scout all three positions simultaneously. You sacrifice the fast (white path) scout in favor of learning 3 positions simultaneously, and on top of that, you have the advantage of significant map coverage at that point.
EPT
