EPTThanks for the BO and thoughts, this is a good thread
[D/G] TvZ Fast science vessels - Page 2
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Chef
10810 Posts
Thanks for the BO and thoughts, this is a good thread | ||
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On May 18 2011 11:03 iTzAnglory wrote: fantasy revolutionized the TvZ matchup forever, and this OPENING definitely started from him (idc if its mech or bio, its an opening). This should always work before C level, but after that you may start to see some timing windows against you in your play, and you might need them out ASAP like in FlaSh vs Jaedong Agreed. Didn't really notice it before, but you're cutting it SUPER close with 2hatch muta. Your turrets might even be a few seconds late if you mess up the smallest timings. The reward however is huge because while your vessel + irradiate will be lessened against mutas, the very presence of the vessel with convince Zerg to back off, and if he doesn't, you can irradiate him. It puts you at a really good tech advantage vs a 2hatch and you should be able to roll him if he doesn't damage you afterwards. As enticing as that might seem however, this build might not even be viable, as I still need to test out more. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Example of it used before fantasy vs ggplay.on colosseum. And noticed its still rather risky to use but if you get to late game with gives you this really strong timing push before defilers. Even earlier then that + Show Spoiler + | ||
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On May 18 2011 13:27 Zergneedsfood wrote: Agreed. Didn't really notice it before, but you're cutting it SUPER close with 2hatch muta. Your turrets might even be a few seconds late if you mess up the smallest timings. The reward however is huge because while your vessel + irradiate will be lessened against mutas, the very presence of the vessel with convince Zerg to back off, and if he doesn't, you can irradiate him. It puts you at a really good tech advantage vs a 2hatch and you should be able to roll him if he doesn't damage you afterwards. As enticing as that might seem however, this build might not even be viable, as I still need to test out more. Ergo, if you try to rush vessels against 2hatch mutas you die. There is no timing that is viable. You'll have to go valk if you really want to rush the starport. | ||
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Miwyfe
England101 Posts
Piano does a nice trick where he irradiates the overlord. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/49819_Jaedong_vs_PianO/vod Personally, I think the build relies on turrets too much which is bad because they are passive. Also, the Terran player is gambling that the Zerg player doesnt do something, which is split his mutas well. If the Zerg player splits perfectly and buys a pair of scourge which take down the vessel, Terran is suddenly in a pretty risky situation I believe, even if he did get an irradiate off. So much depends on one unit. It is therefore very close to being cheese, I honestly think. Whereas with mnm openings the units are not passive, they can threaten unlike turets, and they are more numerous so each individual unit is less important. The pay off of this build is an incredibly strong tech push with more tanks and vessels than usual. But to get there, a huge risk is taken. That is why I call it nearly a cheese build. It is sort of safe though so its not quite cheese. If you made this build your standard TvZ build, I think Zergs would exploit that quite easily. They would get some scourge with the initial mutas or they would do more lurker openings with drop maybe. Or they would expand to a third base earlier because the lack of pressure. Therefore I personally cant recommend tis build to be your go to TvZ standard on current maps. However, it is really fun doing tech openings like this, specifically vessels and you should definately give it a go online. Also, I have a list of some other TvZ tech openings involving valks and gols or valk and mnm or valk and mines etc if anyone wants. | ||
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Miwyfe
England101 Posts
Mind(@7) vs Crazy Hydra(@5) Circuit Breakers in February. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/56525_Crazy-Hydra_vs_Mind/vod In a nutshell: Terran delays +1 and range upgrades for faster vessel while still maintaining the image of a 'standard' 3 rax then factory build. This gives Zerg a stronger timing at muta stage but if they do not realize and do not capitalize they will find a very strong pre hive timing attack hitting them. T Build Order + Show Spoiler + rax expand academy factory (8 rines on the field) 3 rax (adds 2 at once) ebay scanners star turrets and science later, 5 rax and 2 star Z Build Order ( 'standard' ) + Show Spoiler + 3 hat lair spire (just after fac starts) hydra den evo 3rd base queens Here is some more detail if you are interested. + Show Spoiler + When the Factory starts, Mind has 8 rines. He then builds 1 medic and then 2 bats. The firebats help the illusion of pre lurker aggression . He demonstrates to Hydra that he has stim upgraded at this point as well to further show 'standard' play. Mind begins the starport before ebay and even 2nd or 3rd rax is finished. +1 weapons begins as soon as ebay completes. Only then does range upgrade get started which is at the same time as science facility start building. Here is where Minds fragility shows the most. He begins a bunker and 3 turrets in the nat while only 1 in the main and 1 at the rax. Furthermore, he only has 16 rines, 3 medics and 2 bats when the mutas hit. This is acceptable but the thing is, they are not range upgraded and they are not on +1 weapons yet and wont be for a short time yet. However, Crazy Hydra cannot easily know this and cannot easily take advantage of this even if he did. Infact it would be just a tiny bit too risky for him to commit to doing alot of damage at this point and Mind benefits when he chooses not to. Crazy Hydra attacks the natural first and plays conservatively with his mutas. This is a little bit lucky for Mind because it buys him those precious seconds to build his 2nd turret in the main and 2nd turret at the rax. Mind only loses one scv, and a bit later 2 rines. After that, Mind has irradiate and his other upgrades along with 3 tanks and 2 vessels. Hive is still building giving him a great opportunity to win the game pre defiler and he does. A bit more detail + Show Spoiler + Minds main timing attack consists of 17 rines, 3 medics, 2 bats with 3 tanks and 2 vessels. He has so far lost 5 rines and used 1 irradiate with the 2nd irradiate ready to use as he moves out of his natural. He gets a bit unlucky with his 2nd irradiate, doing hardly any damage because he targets an already nearly dead mutalisk. Crazy Hydra takes credit for using his lurkers quite well to pick off 2 of the initial 3 tanks. Both players try to pincer each other but Mind manages to be more cost effecient overall and takes the win. I like this build compared to the one Classic used in the game on fortress I posted previously. It is a variation rather than a hugely different strategy which centres around an already known strong timing attack and simply makes that timing attack stronger by not being aggressive pre lurker. The longer you delay being aggressive, the more opportunities you have to get ahead in the match by cutting corners and these adding up. However, the build never reveals itself to the opponent so he is forced to weaken himself relative to you by preparing for a pre lurker attack that isnt coming. Also any thought on the JD Piano game? | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
I'm currently at D+ with an 18-9 record vs Z. I've been using this build basically the entire time....save one time where I a-yumied (and lost), and a couple of the losses are actually me needing to leave midway through the game because my parents are coming home. Here's what I've discovered: a) I'm doing really well against most 3hatch muta variants. There are a few places that the build falls short on, for example, there are points where if you're not careful, you may run out of minerals without meaning to, which suggests that improvements still exist. However, you save a lot of money on turrets by having your science vessel really early. There are also at least THREE times when I had the "Flash irradiate" happen to me. Not so pretty, but it's not a deathblow if you're careful. b) Against 2hatch variants, the build needs to be adjusted. What I tend to do is when I scout a two hatch build order, I still go for the same build, except when I add my Starport after the factory, I also throw down an armory and get a couple of valkyries before the vessels. Provided I don't get my valkyries killed, it leaves me in a great position against 2hatch mutas. c) Against lurkers, I just add a machine shop after my factory is done and I will have 1tank/1vessel to keep Lurkers at bay. A couple of bunkers are also really nice to defend if Zerg decides to push. Updates soon! I hope to hit C- with the account I'm using to test the build but I don't have that many opportunities to play. >< | ||
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CaffeineFree-_-
United States712 Posts
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On May 26 2011 01:09 CaffeineFree-_- wrote: Well I really think you need to test this build at higher levels...iirc you are C/C- so pretty much anything will work vs D/D+ ranks. A good number of the players were C-/C but just hadn't ranked up yet. Like I said, I'm going to try to get more on it later when I reach those ranks fo sho. | ||
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ZeKk
Sweden320 Posts
On May 26 2011 01:09 CaffeineFree-_- wrote: Well I really think you need to test this build at higher levels...iirc you are C/C- so pretty much anything will work vs D/D+ ranks. +1 | ||
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Zhul
Czech Republic430 Posts
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
A couple things to note: - I prefer NOT doing the 16 cc, but instead just adding a supply on 15, a command center on 18 and a refinery on 18 (you skip a round of scvs and marines to do this). For some reason I've had more success this way. - Early ling pressure is so good against this build. In fact, it's so good that I might have to just consider working a bunker into this build. And it's no other reason but because you're off of 1rax and you just can't produce anything for a very long time. I'll get more later. I've been busy so I'm trying to get as much done as possible. Still, as long as I'm only C-, there's still a long way for this build to go! | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On May 26 2011 09:30 Zergneedsfood wrote: A good number of the players were C-/C but just hadn't ranked up yet. Like I said, I'm going to try to get more on it later when I reach those ranks fo sho. I feel like people put way too much weight in player stats, especially 'oh he was such and such last season.' When I am playing games at the D level I certainly do not try very hard. Matchup, map, mood etc... Just because someone eventually got to C, doesn't mean they gave you a C level game when you played them at D. | ||
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SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
On May 28 2011 23:23 Zergneedsfood wrote: Got to C-. A couple things to note: - I prefer NOT doing the 16 cc, but instead just adding a supply on 15, a command center on 18 and a refinery on 18 (you skip a round of scvs and marines to do this). For some reason I've had more success this way. - Early ling pressure is so good against this build. In fact, it's so good that I might have to just consider working a bunker into this build. And it's no other reason but because you're off of 1rax and you just can't produce anything for a very long time. I'll get more later. I've been busy so I'm trying to get as much done as possible. Still, as long as I'm only C-, there's still a long way for this build to go! My thoughts on these points from playing Melee games (as opposed to ladder) against Fish server zergs: - I still do the normal barracks expand where you cut marines if they 12hatch for a faster command center etc. I don't think it makes too much of a difference at least at my play level. - Yeah lings are really good. I make a bunker as late as I can but it definitely does go down eventually. - 2 hatch builds.. I hate them. Although my position may be fine, it just feels uncomfortable. | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On May 29 2011 03:27 SnowFantasy wrote: My thoughts on these points from playing Melee games (as opposed to ladder) against Fish server zergs: - I still do the normal barracks expand where you cut marines if they 12hatch for a faster command center etc. I don't think it makes too much of a difference at least at my play level. - Yeah lings are really good. I make a bunker as late as I can but it definitely does go down eventually. - 2 hatch builds.. I hate them. Although my position may be fine, it just feels uncomfortable. How's your success actually? I'm curious. I do the 18cc because I'm just scared about lings. When I go for the supply and then a marine, I feel a lot more safe against ling pressure later. Against 2hatches I delay science vessels and just go for valkyries. I | ||
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SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
I would upload some replays and stuff but my games haven't been so good. Fish melee games seem to be either against really good or really bad players. Once you start laddering though you get really good games. I think it is an alright build, I prefer to do it out of a vulture opening but I wouldn't make either variation my standard TvZ style. Against 2 hatchery though I don't really like the position you end up in even when you go Valkyries. It can work of course but it just isn't my style. today though I will play this build some and make sure I get some good games. Also ZnF, we need to sit down and play some TvT games sometime. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
On May 29 2011 05:22 SnowFantasy wrote: Yeah but I'm not really scared of lings. One thing I see flash do that I started copying was sending a second scv scout at about 14 supply. You scout one position then scout the other two at the same time. You know exactly what the Zerg is doing and can safely skip bunker or properly adapt to Zerglings. I would upload some replays and stuff but my games haven't been so good. Fish melee games seem to be either against really good or really bad players. Once you start laddering though you get really good games. I think it is an alright build, I prefer to do it out of a vulture opening but I wouldn't make either variation my standard TvZ style. Against 2 hatchery though I don't really like the position you end up in even when you go Valkyries. It can work of course but it just isn't my style. today though I will play this build some and make sure I get some good games. Also ZnF, we need to sit down and play some TvT games sometime. 2hat is fine when you open with vult/factory. You just have to remember to get starport (before expanding) and wraith asap to deal as much overlord damage as possible. (can kill around 4 if they skip Den and hydras, otherwise you only get 1-2) However, it buys time for valks to come out. There's also variations where you get cloaked wraiths instead which murder Zergs who don't get overlord speed. Another adv of opening with fac is how you can get a free win over zergs who treat it like mech and go hydra -> muta. Hitting the timing before defiler with as many tanks as possible though is really fucking hard. -_- http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/49164_HiyA_vs_ZerO Recent game of build that ZnF wants and goes to later game is http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/67072_Hydra_vs_Mind | ||
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