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Hi guys,
Since I'm playing zerg @Iccup I got the problem that I always get beaten by any Mech build of Terrran player. It's hilarious even not the tipps of the Terran them self doesnt help me. I tried everything: mass muta, fast hydra 1+ push bla bla bla. But every time I need to type "gg". I cant understand why I'm loosing all the time. I mean I had 3 bases running 4th on the way to pumping out, but then he beat me with 2 tanks and mass goliaths. At this point he had supply about 90-120 ( while he attacked me) - I just had like 50-60 and I macroed well I had 2-1 upgrades and Hive tech also was going to go for mound. So does anyone have some hardcore-helping-tips?
best regards
Johnny
Here is the link to a replay of me: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=41408
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rank? I'm around D+ and I have trouble with it too.
Well.. mass goliaths with two tanks isn't too hard, you just need mass hydras (unless its some op timing attack... then you gotta get your timings down very well also) and if you get an opportunity to snipe the tanks, do so.
I have problems when they get more tanks... but I haven't played enough games to effectively know how to beat them.
One thing I know for sure is that zergling bombs mess tanks up really badly. Muta tech switch also is very effective, as they won't have many vessels (especially if you scourge them).
If you go standard 3hatch muta, and realize they are going mech, then you should start hydra upgrades immediately (speed, range, +1 attack) and take a 4th base while droning up (they can't push out yet), while ignoring lurkers for now (useful later though, since they are invincible to tanks under swarm) and later upgrade overlord speed and drops.
Jaedong vs fantasy is a great example of dealing with mass tanks: + Show Spoiler +
Zero vs Flash is a great example of dealing with mass goliaths: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1YxHfKpMUA
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I really don't understand what you were trying to do with your build.
You went 2 hatch muta which doesn't help your economy and relies on doing some damage with the mutas while you get your 3rd, but then you added a hydra den (i assume for really early range?), ovie speed, didn't make mutas, and got a late 3rd. You then teched very quickly to 3 base hive, + 2 evo chambers which really can't produce enough units that you need against mech. You would have been much better off 3 hatching or focusing much more on expanding after your 2 hatch mutas came out.
Against mech, you really need to exploit the fact that he can't push out early. You need to expand much more than normal, and focus on droning for longer so that when he does push out, you have huge amounts of units. Really work on your build, and I would definitely suggest listening to Day9's mech podcast if you haven't already.
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/zatic/Day[9]0001-StoppingMech.mp3
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Thanks I'm going to try his build and keep attention on his tips.!
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It actually worked, thanks a lot! I Won biiiatch :D
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In StarCraft, there is ONE thing I've learned from playing. Don't think about "What I can do to win now" but rather to think "How can I win with the final result." ALWAYS be patient about winning. Don't throw units to a well fortified places. Back off and expand while containing. And Zerg vs Mech is THE epitome of this lesson.
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Ok here I go
Early pressure with ur lings(4,6): Make him pull scv or make extra marines. This way u know he is going mech if u dont see many rines around
U take ur Second Expa too Late
Bad Macro always over 1000 min and gas all the time: You should be droning up like crazy
Spiral and no Mutas??
Hydra Speed First!
At 8 you brake his front but it seems you wanna go up the ramp.
Just attack the Expo (CC or workers)
You could take ur 3Expa at that moment easyly
You were dead at this point but....
Delay his push: Force him to siege and move back Repeat
Queens !!!! Just kidding xD
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there is no cute way to beat mech. you just need a lot of units.
i think day9 points out very important aspects against mech. muta hydra ling is the best combo against mech. don't go ultralisks. its just a waste of money.
also, opening mutalisks to me is a better route because the mutas are the key in letting you scout him. opening hydras first can work but you are left playing in the dark for the most part. you will need to know his factory count or if he decided to transition to bio. going mutas doesnt mean u need to deal a whole lot of harassment. you just need to keep track of things and expand like crazy.
you were all over the place. open 2 hatch with getting both den and spire. either go for mutas or hydras. you cant afford to go both at this point since you went 2 hatch. the moment you saw the vulture up his ramp, go take another base. you have to abuse the immobility mech has to mass up as many expansions and hatcheries to fight off his fire power.
in your game, you didnt get a third hatch faster. also you didnt scout when he got his expo up and running. it was very late. even though he went for a 4 fac goliath push, there's just no way he will be able to sustain constant production of that based on one base. even so, an earlier third hatch from you together with range and speed upgraded hydras would have completely crushed him.
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I love to go 3 hat each at a different base (make 1 sunken at 3rd asap with the first larva that spawns), then add 1 more hat at your nat and then make a gas, add one more gas when the den is like halfway done. hydra speed->range. make a few hydras to protect yourself, then make drones. then make enough hydras to discourage his attack, then drone up more.
start lair + ling speed + evo +1 ranged attack +1 gas. here you make more drones or hydra/ling, depending on terran's behavior. lair -> spire (start air carapace, you can make mutas if you see low goliaths). MASS UNITS. add 2 evos start research. MASS UNITS. add hatcheries (expos mostly) when you get more minerals. MASS UNITS. expand. MASS UNITS. expand. MASS UNITS. you get the idea. when you have like 4-5 bases (or +2 upgs are almost finished) start hive to get cracklings, they rock.
avoid fighting the terran head on. the only time it's good to attack is if he's out of position or you have a good advantage or if you're trying to delay his expo a bit or he's cornered you.
that day[9] podcast rocks too. 
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i think the whole idea is to meet his army head on with all your stuff but before you do that, you need to put yourself in a position such that you can replace your entire army after you lose that first engagement. if he has a proper setup maxed army, then you will surely lose your first engagement but since you can replace your army faster(having alot of expansions and hatcheries), you can send in another wave right after the first, which should have greatly weakened his defence.
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If I know the terran is playing "standard" mech, I try to secure a third asap. I also put down a hydra den immediately after first 100 gas for lair to defend my third from vults and defuse mines. At the same time, start sending an ovie to the area outside your natural, one near his main somewhere, and one to where you're going to plant your third base. They will usually starting hitting your third hatch with vultures while it's still building and plant mines, but you can easily fend those off with the ovie and hydras. I also start second gas at regular 3hatch muta timing (lair halfway done) so you can start hydra upgrades and ovie speed. I actually don't get mutas at all until way later in the game. Like 99% terrans I've played build turrets no matter what. All the while, you're building the minimal amount of hydras necessary to defend harass and just pumping drones. When ovie speed finishes, you send that ovie you planted near his main earlier to scout what he's doing. He might just be pumping tanks and preparing to take his third or you can check his factory count to see if he's going to try to kill you. What you scout depends on whether or not you need to start full out army production or keep making drones. You can take your fourth base and put down production hatches to complete your simcity when you feel like you can support it.
There are timings when the terran can try to kill you before you start profiting from your third base, usually with like a control group golis and a tank. It's rare, though, but it's possible to hold off with hydra/ling and waiting until the hatch is almost dead to squash his army. Also, it's possible that terran can go for vult drops. It's entirely feasible to defend perfectly with good ovie placement around your main and prematurely keeping some hydras in your main.
This style of play will work well and give you great econ for the late game at least up to C- (I'm C).
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i havent read through all the posts but basically u can play it out like you would play a zvp. just have +1 expo (or +more if you are greedy and/or safe enough)
just make a lot of 1a2a3a units (mostly lings and hydras), have enough units to defend if he tries to attack and place them on the map so they can attack from all sides if the terran army comes (generally i dislike attacking mech turtled terrans)
just outmacro him but not like super heavy outmacroin at all cost... just have him slightly outmacroed with enough army not to die to some push
also have him scouted to know when he is attacking and deny the terran to make additional expos with stuff - lings, burrowed shit, lurkers, some mutas...
also if the game sticks more than usual around make sure you got more hatcheries to make new army fast... i generally dislike using ultras against mech terran who has a lot of vultures mines sieged tanks and shit and will refuse not to turtle ... i guess they are fine for drops with defilers only ;D
defilers are good too but it is hard if you are not fast
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alright i watched the rep and have 3 things to say
1st spend your minerals better after around 5th minute u had plenty and did nothing with them... learn to spend your minerals and gas so they dont get above 200-200 unless you need to make 9-10 mutas or smth ofc
2nd when you attacked you gathered even more so the above post of mine makes even more sense (not to attack unless you have him nicely outnumbered)
3rd pick better where to fight... the last battle you had your hydras were completely out of battle position, they could have worked better if better placed ;D
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Your initial attack FAILED MISERABLY .. If you see the T mech, after your third expo, take a 4th and 5th and MACRO UP. When you attacked you failed to macro while T was continued making units.
Never ever stop making units against mech T. All of it was fine until you tried to push your first batch of hydras on that ramp.
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On April 02 2011 11:05 JMave wrote:
there is no cute way to beat mech. you just need a lot of units.
i think day9 points out very important aspects against mech. muta hydra ling is the best combo against mech. don't go ultralisks. its just a waste of money.
also, opening mutalisks to me is a better route because the mutas are the key in letting you scout him. opening hydras first can work but you are left playing in the dark for the most part. you will need to know his factory count or if he decided to transition to bio. going mutas doesnt mean u need to deal a whole lot of harassment. you just need to keep track of things and expand like crazy.
you were all over the place. open 2 hatch with getting both den and spire. either go for mutas or hydras. you cant afford to go both at this point since you went 2 hatch. the moment you saw the vulture up his ramp, go take another base. you have to abuse the immobility mech has to mass up as many expansions and hatcheries to fight off his fire power.
in your game, you didnt get a third hatch faster. also you didnt scout when he got his expo up and running. it was very late. even though he went for a 4 fac goliath push, there's just no way he will be able to sustain constant production of that based on one base. even so, an earlier third hatch from you together with range and speed upgraded hydras would have completely crushed him.
Ultra can generally be traded 1 for 1 vs tanks, so if your gas count is double that of a meching terran, then ultras are reasonable.
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god i hate zerg vs mech
+ Show Spoiler +
look at the game that just happened between koll vs ramms
koll had a HUGE advantage and he STILL lost to just one push
it seems as if they have like 2 control groups of goliaths and like 5 tanks whatever you throw cant stop it
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I love zerg vs mech 90% of my zvt wins come from it. Reminds me zvp, just the unit composition is different (mutas viable in main army to limit tank numbers especially since you don't need to stack them that way SV's are not nearly as scary) The enemy gets an actual army a lot later so more time to whore drones and window for more expos. If you macro well (mins at least <500 no self supply blocking) and don't let his vults clear your expos out you should be able to win against an opponent of similar ability. “ QUOTE ”
I remembered something that Park Myung Soo said. It’s been a while, so it’s a bit fuzzy, but it was something like “Mech should be saved for Protoss.” I feel the same way, and I’m fully confident. Good management and macro is the key.
/QUOTE The Dong says how it is.
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On April 03 2011 05:18 shinjin wrote:god i hate zerg vs mech + Show Spoiler +
look at the game that just happened between koll vs ramms
koll had a HUGE advantage and he STILL lost to just one push
it seems as if they have like 2 control groups of goliaths and like 5 tanks whatever you throw cant stop it
Ummm,
2 control groups of mutas and 3 control groups of Hydras could take that easily
If the mech is 3/3, then might require another group of hydras
I think Zero has the best take of fighting mech: Hydra Ling vs Mass goliaths
Queens hydras and lings vs tanks and goliaths
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EPT
