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Zerg Army Composition?

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
zeratultassadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia30 Posts
April 22 2010 03:51 GMT
#1
Please excuse my noobyness, but as a relative newcomer to SC: BW I have some general questions about zerg army compositions. No, I don't have a replay, and I'm not even asking you to analyze a certain game I played.

Just please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. k thx

ZvZ…
Get lings, get ling speed, spire, get mutas and scourge, and micro like crazy FTW. (basically lings, mutas and scourge)
______________________________________________________________________
ZvT…
vs terran bio…Lings early on for scouting and harass, ling speed, spire, muta harass, lurker if he has no detectors, otherwise ultralisk mound, ultra speed, defiler mound, dark swarm, plaguuuu (usually used for rines/medics and vessels). Guardians optional. Queens rarely used, except by Jaedong when he’s in even more raping attitude than he usually is, ensnaring unsuspecting rines and medics. (basically lings and ultras with defiler support)
vs terran mech…mutas and HEEEEEDRAAAASSS!!!! Ignore spider mines and tank splash damage.
______________________________________________________________________
ZvP…
9 pool if you want to catch him off guard before he gets any cannons. Lings in the beginning, then either mutas to kill his main if he has no cannons and/or corsairs, ling/lurker/ultralisk with optional defiler play (dark swarm) if he has mostly zealots and archons, and mass hydras if he has mostly goons while sniping templar with mutas. kill sairs with either scourge or hydra, depending on build. Complicated matchup involving reacting to the opponent, even more so than in other MUs.
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________

All MUs, excpect ZvZ, involve overlord drops into opponent’s main and expos. TARGET nexus/command center. Infest command center if you want to humiliate your opponent. GG NO RE
... ... ...
and PLEASE don't link a liquipedia article about zerg build orders or something, i just want your OPINIONS...
0mgVitaminE
Profile Joined February 2009
United States1278 Posts
April 22 2010 04:49 GMT
#2
Why wouldn't you want liquipedia articles when some of them are complete guides to certain matchups?
Hi there. I'm in a cave, how bout you?
GeMicles
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada307 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-22 05:08:33
April 22 2010 05:08 GMT
#3
okay im not gonna be like vitamin E here and give you advice.
you have zvz right but for terran bio, you can go lurks even if he has detection. what you are doing right now is the crazy zerg style going directly to hive tech rape without going lurker ling first. lurker ling is an efficient bio killer. just remember to send lurks in first before lings.

for zvp, deflieler play is mandatory. plague however, is used more than dark swarm.
i pikachu in the shower
Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6170 Posts
April 22 2010 05:43 GMT
#4
On April 22 2010 14:08 GeMicles wrote:
you have zvz right but for terran bio, you can go lurks even if he has detection.
Yeah. And it's very standard.

to op: it's not that simple to say what mix of units you need in each match up. The questions are When and Why?
Spazer
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada8029 Posts
April 22 2010 06:00 GMT
#5
If you're new and playing standard, do not skip lurkers vs bio unless you have a very, very good reason. They're excellent for containing the terran player early on. They also wreak havoc on bio armies if they don't have good micro.

Ignore spider mines and tank splash damage.
Good luck ignoring that.

ZvP…
9 pool if you want to catch him off guard before he gets any cannons. Lings in the beginning, then either mutas to kill his main if he has no cannons and/or corsairs, ling/lurker/ultralisk with optional defiler play (dark swarm) if he has mostly zealots and archons, and mass hydras if he has mostly goons while sniping templar with mutas. kill sairs with either scourge or hydra, depending on build. Complicated matchup involving reacting to the opponent, even more so than in other MUs.

A 4 pool will come out before cannons. A 9 pool will not. The reason why people use 9 pool is so that the probe can't block your drone from putting down another hatch.

You should consider reading more articles on Liquipedia. The zerg guides are pretty comprehensive about what you should be doing.
Liquipedia
TriniMasta
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1323 Posts
April 22 2010 06:06 GMT
#6
your description sounds very.. how do I put it...
amateurish... I mean you get the basic stuff but the wording is just showing that you only have a slim view on the whole picture

"All MUs, excpect ZvZ, involve overlord drops into opponent’s main and expos. TARGET nexus/command center. Infest command center if you want to humiliate your opponent. GG NO RE"

Where did you get the overlord drop thing? This is really your preference. Usually into the late game, or not at all.
정명훈 FIGHTING!!! Play both T and P.
HickleStine
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia276 Posts
April 22 2010 06:21 GMT
#7
9 pool or overpool is standard in ZvP.

Btw mass hydras is fairly good against all protoss builds/army compositions, you just need to worry about sniping templar and reavers, however opening with mutas is a good choice too.

btw dark swarm is basically useless against zealots and archons

Lurkers are very good against zealots, hydras are better for dealing with goons.
Also, you usually need scourge to counter corsairs, but hyrdas can do the job (i think?).
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
April 22 2010 08:49 GMT
#8
go read liquipedia a bunch, theres a bunch of mistakes in here
My. Copy. Is. Here.
ConsummateK
Profile Joined April 2010
United States98 Posts
April 22 2010 14:38 GMT
#9
It's interesting, because as a brand new poster (and BW player) I want to get involved in the community...but generally anything I would talk about is covered ad nauseam.

I can still throw my opinion out on certain things I suppose, but until I have a solid grasp of things that's not going to mean much anyway. Just an observation.
Papvin
Profile Joined May 2009
Denmark610 Posts
April 22 2010 17:44 GMT
#10
You're oversimplifying things. Your ideas aply well to some situations, but not every situation at all. Many zvz's end before even getting a single muta out, and ling speed is in no way mandatory. Also, even in the muta stage, lings can be game winners in simultaneous attacks.
In all, my opinion is that you have an okay idea about the mu's, but you need to play more to see the subtlety's in them.
"It's criminally negligent to dismiss Rock's contributions to other people's careers", Dukethegold
Gao Xi
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Hong Kong5178 Posts
April 22 2010 18:06 GMT
#11
On April 22 2010 15:00 Spazer wrote:
If you're new and playing standard, do not skip lurkers vs bio unless you have a very, very good reason. They're excellent for containing the terran player early on. They also wreak havoc on bio armies if they don't have good micro.

Show nested quote +
Ignore spider mines and tank splash damage.
Good luck ignoring that.

Show nested quote +
ZvP…
9 pool if you want to catch him off guard before he gets any cannons. Lings in the beginning, then either mutas to kill his main if he has no cannons and/or corsairs, ling/lurker/ultralisk with optional defiler play (dark swarm) if he has mostly zealots and archons, and mass hydras if he has mostly goons while sniping templar with mutas. kill sairs with either scourge or hydra, depending on build. Complicated matchup involving reacting to the opponent, even more so than in other MUs.

A 4 pool will come out before cannons. A 9 pool will not. The reason why people use 9 pool is so that the probe can't block your drone from putting down another hatch.

You should consider reading more articles on Liquipedia. The zerg guides are pretty comprehensive about what you should be doing.

thought most people will prefer overpool so it doesn't put them far behind, and can still double expand on that. if the Protoss skimps on his 2nd cannon, you can runby with speed and
mess up his sair timing. If he does skimp you can just use your lings to keep map control until the sair comes out.
龔智禮 _________________________________________________________________________________________________ CJ NATION
gaizka
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States991 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-22 18:16:54
April 22 2010 18:07 GMT
#12
I feel your notion for zvt and zvp is just bad, I'm bad at zvz so maybe thats why I don't see something wrong with it.
1.Lurkers if he has no detection.
2.Guardians optionals.
3.Ignore spider mines and splash damage.
4.9 pool if...
5.Mutas if he has no cannons.
6.optional defiler play.
7.Reacting to the opponent.

1.Almost always you get lurkers against terran, if he has no mobile detection, they will contain him until then. Even against mech, you can harass with lurker drops.
2. Against some strategies you will need them they are very good at pushing against tank lines, some build transition easily into guardians like 2 hatch muta.
3.As said before, good luck with that. You need detection against mech or else you will loose so much to the mines. Maybe you haven't faced mech before because how can you even think about ignoring tank damage.
4.The protoss can deal with 9pools easily with probe blocks, good building placement.
5.Mutas are good even if he has defence against them, you just don't win immediately.
6.You will need defilers no matter what in the late game, makes the zerglings a lot stronger, they can push archons, dragoons, take out cannons and snippe nexus.
7.Protoss is the one reacting to zerg, generally.

You said you didn't want 'go read liquipedia' responses, but go read liquipedia.
Bwenjarin Raffrack
Profile Joined November 2008
United States322 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-22 19:36:23
April 22 2010 19:34 GMT
#13
On April 22 2010 23:38 ConsummateK wrote:
It's interesting, because as a brand new poster (and BW player) I want to get involved in the community...but generally anything I would talk about is covered ad nauseam.

I can still throw my opinion out on certain things I suppose, but until I have a solid grasp of things that's not going to mean much anyway. Just an observation.


Because of how old Brood War is and how long we've all been playing it, TL tacitly, perhaps unintentionally, assumes a modicum of basic knowledge that generally goes unspoken on Liquipedia and the fora. For newcomers to the game, or those with no prior RTS knowledge, that assumption leaves a distinct gap between just picking up the game and readily absorbing information off of Liquipedia.

Indeed, I'd imagine it would be very difficult trying to sort through the wealth of information around here for the first time. However, if you do put in the effort of reading Liquipedia, the Recommended Threads, and watching VODs, it is not difficult to ascend quickly past that initial learning curve and beyond. After that, opportunity for discussion isn't lacking. Present yourself well, formulate your ideas well, and you'll probably be received well.

Not sure if I should really be responding to the OP, but I will anyway. Edit: Regretting this decision now.

ZvZ

Your composition analysis is generally correct. Extreme focus should be given to the initial build orders. ZvZ as a match-up is very volatile, and tactics and micro reign supreme.



ZvT


Standard ZvT against bionic is a match-up of ebb and flow, as evinced by the reactionary tech transitions, swings in map control, down to even the cyclical nature of drone production.

While Terran expands, zerglings gain early-game map control. After Terran gets his academy, stim, and medics, he's in charge, forcing the Zerg to build sunken colonies while he techs to mutalisks. The mutalisks keep the Terran hemmed inside his base because of the threat of harassment. Terran's economy from his expansion kicks in, and he finally gets a large enough army to be able to move out onto the map.

Zerg uses lurkers (and the threat of hold lurkers) to counter the Terran's growing, roaming bionic army while he quickly makes his way up to hive tech. Terran gets tanks, which out-range the lurkers, and science vessels so that he can push his way across the map to the Zerg's natural and break through the sunken colonies. Zerg burrows and unburrows his lurkers while forcing the Terran to siege his tanks with his mutalisks so that he can buy time for defilers and consume. Terran reaches Zerg's natural, but defilers arrive just in time to push him back with dark swarm.

Zerg pushes further out onto the map while he upgrades ultralisks (armor first or else they get murdered). Terran irradiates defilers and ultralisks to soften them up, and Zerg gets scourge to kill vessels and plague to weaken the Terran ball and minimize the vessel count. The game continues to go back and forth until the Terran is crushed underfoot or the Zerg is starved.

Of course, many refinements have been made and variations can occur throughout the whole game. Hydra/lurker, late game hydra/plague, fast mutalisks into guardians, crazy Zerg ultralisk rushing, etc. One thing to note is that Zerg's "timing" opportunities are somewhat more rigid because of the nature of hatchery production. Also, it's not only that lurkers require detection but also that they are simply strong units in general.

Against Terran mech, Zerg plays with his unit combination to delay the Terran push. Making more mutalisks forces more goliaths, until Zerg switches to making hydralisks to force Terran to wait for tanks. Terran must be incredibly mindful of his unit combination and tread a very fine line when he steps outside to secure another base. Also, rushing to hive tech isn't as critical against mech.



ZvP

Assuming forge FE, pool-first openings are to force Protoss to build cannons before the nexus and to prevent scouting after the first probe is dead. Before he can confidently proceed, Protoss needs to build a stargate and scout with corsairs. Zerg builds a spire to gain early air dominance with scourge. The staple Zerg unit is the hydralisk, and mutalisks (or queens, if you're (Z)ZerO) later to snipe high templar. Lurkers ward off masses of zealots and are used for contains, of course, while sniping observers with scourge. After Protoss gets his standard ball rolling, Zerg usually transitions into ultraling with defiler to nullify dragoons and archons, but hydralisks and lurkers are also effective combined with plague. Sniping expansions with dark swarm and cracklings is critical, as well as late game doom drops on the main.

If the Protoss goes corsair/reaver, zerglings are burrowed around the map for vision while hydralisks are burrowed in strategic locations. If Protoss transitions into corsair/carrier, we usually see the most exotic unit composition. Queens, devourers, defilers for triple the goop against corsairs, carriers, arbiters, archons, dark archons.


In short:
On April 23 2010 03:07 gaizka wrote:You said you didn't want 'go read liquipedia' responses, but go read liquipedia.
I'm not as thunk as dreople pink I am.
zeratultassadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia30 Posts
April 22 2010 23:09 GMT
#14
Thanks a lot guys. I'm really pleased with all the feedback I received.

I tried reading Liquipedia, but with the huge amount of information on there it can seem a little daunting, especially to beginners. I guess I was looking for stuff that's similar to what's already on Liquipedia, but with a bit of a more personal touch.

I'm gonna try out these strats now!!!
Again, THX !!!
ConsummateK
Profile Joined April 2010
United States98 Posts
April 22 2010 23:13 GMT
#15
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 23 2010 04:34 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2010 23:38 ConsummateK wrote:
It's interesting, because as a brand new poster (and BW player) I want to get involved in the community...but generally anything I would talk about is covered ad nauseam.

I can still throw my opinion out on certain things I suppose, but until I have a solid grasp of things that's not going to mean much anyway. Just an observation.


Because of how old Brood War is and how long we've all been playing it, TL tacitly, perhaps unintentionally, assumes a modicum of basic knowledge that generally goes unspoken on Liquipedia and the fora. For newcomers to the game, or those with no prior RTS knowledge, that assumption leaves a distinct gap between just picking up the game and readily absorbing information off of Liquipedia.

Indeed, I'd imagine it would be very difficult trying to sort through the wealth of information around here for the first time. However, if you do put in the effort of reading Liquipedia, the Recommended Threads, and watching VODs, it is not difficult to ascend quickly past that initial learning curve and beyond. After that, opportunity for discussion isn't lacking. Present yourself well, formulate your ideas well, and you'll probably be received well.

Not sure if I should really be responding to the OP, but I will anyway. Edit: Regretting this decision now.

ZvZ

Your composition analysis is generally correct. Extreme focus should be given to the initial build orders. ZvZ as a match-up is very volatile, and tactics and micro reign supreme.



ZvT


Standard ZvT against bionic is a match-up of ebb and flow, as evinced by the reactionary tech transitions, swings in map control, down to even the cyclical nature of drone production.

While Terran expands, zerglings gain early-game map control. After Terran gets his academy, stim, and medics, he's in charge, forcing the Zerg to build sunken colonies while he techs to mutalisks. The mutalisks keep the Terran hemmed inside his base because of the threat of harassment. Terran's economy from his expansion kicks in, and he finally gets a large enough army to be able to move out onto the map.

Zerg uses lurkers (and the threat of hold lurkers) to counter the Terran's growing, roaming bionic army while he quickly makes his way up to hive tech. Terran gets tanks, which out-range the lurkers, and science vessels so that he can push his way across the map to the Zerg's natural and break through the sunken colonies. Zerg burrows and unburrows his lurkers while forcing the Terran to siege his tanks with his mutalisks so that he can buy time for defilers and consume. Terran reaches Zerg's natural, but defilers arrive just in time to push him back with dark swarm.

Zerg pushes further out onto the map while he upgrades ultralisks (armor first or else they get murdered). Terran irradiates defilers and ultralisks to soften them up, and Zerg gets scourge to kill vessels and plague to weaken the Terran ball and minimize the vessel count. The game continues to go back and forth until the Terran is crushed underfoot or the Zerg is starved.

Of course, many refinements have been made and variations can occur throughout the whole game. Hydra/lurker, late game hydra/plague, fast mutalisks into guardians, crazy Zerg ultralisk rushing, etc. One thing to note is that Zerg's "timing" opportunities are somewhat more rigid because of the nature of hatchery production. Also, it's not only that lurkers require detection but also that they are simply strong units in general.

Against Terran mech, Zerg plays with his unit combination to delay the Terran push. Making more mutalisks forces more goliaths, until Zerg switches to making hydralisks to force Terran to wait for tanks. Terran must be incredibly mindful of his unit combination and tread a very fine line when he steps outside to secure another base. Also, rushing to hive tech isn't as critical against mech.



ZvP

Assuming forge FE, pool-first openings are to force Protoss to build cannons before the nexus and to prevent scouting after the first probe is dead. Before he can confidently proceed, Protoss needs to build a stargate and scout with corsairs. Zerg builds a spire to gain early air dominance with scourge. The staple Zerg unit is the hydralisk, and mutalisks (or queens, if you're (Z)ZerO) later to snipe high templar. Lurkers ward off masses of zealots and are used for contains, of course, while sniping observers with scourge. After Protoss gets his standard ball rolling, Zerg usually transitions into ultraling with defiler to nullify dragoons and archons, but hydralisks and lurkers are also effective combined with plague. Sniping expansions with dark swarm and cracklings is critical, as well as late game doom drops on the main.

If the Protoss goes corsair/reaver, zerglings are burrowed around the map for vision while hydralisks are burrowed in strategic locations. If Protoss transitions into corsair/carrier, we usually see the most exotic unit composition. Queens, devourers, defilers for triple the goop against corsairs, carriers, arbiters, archons, dark archons.


In short:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2010 03:07 gaizka wrote:You said you didn't want 'go read liquipedia' responses, but go read liquipedia.


Certainly. I don't begrudge the community at all it's just sort of something I thought was interesting. I think that it may be challenging to really get into the TL community (or at least be able to interact) without first spending a good amount of time doing some self study. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. Actually, it's probably a good filter for some of the less savory forum types

*Goes back to Liquipedia
Twaxter
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada190 Posts
April 24 2010 13:50 GMT
#16
ya, against a mech terran, you got to which time to push. if the terran unseiges for any reason, or is on a weak leapfrog. you rush in and burrow with your lurkers. specific stuff is on liquipedia.

against Bio terran, you have to do a lurker hold. (if you don't know what it is, youtube it) and you successfully defend agaisnt terran pushes without a ridiculous amount of units.

against a ZvP, most of them just do forge expand, some of them go to 2gate/proxy gate. against a forge expand, you want to contain his army with zerglings, and have either hydra's or a spore colony up for his early corsairs. You can go muta lisk, but the P's I play usually mass corsairs, and corsairs rape muta's/ovies. So I usually just go scourge. You set up a lurker contain, spread lurkers out, you have to know storm dodging. you can resort to doom dropping, and just win your sheer number of hive tech units.

against a ZvZ, these are risky and fast, (as stated on liquipedia). You want to rush to spire, while keeping track of his expo's and zergling count. you make sunkens as necessary. you usually win due to pure micro and macro experience. you gradually take expo's and gain map control.

It's helped me countless times

btw, just read up liquipedia, and they give you specific timing guides and strategies, other than BO's give it a read, and get a practice partner.
Lose and Learn
JohnBall
Profile Joined December 2008
Brazil1272 Posts
April 24 2010 15:34 GMT
#17
Welcome to teamliquid!

Since Bwenjarin Raffrack has given a detailed answear already, I'm just going to add that the greatest challenge to playing zerg is to grasp the strategical depth of the race. Zerg is able to make the largest and fastest tech switches and is able to quickly adapt to anything the opponent does. However, knowing what to do to adapt and how to react takes a lot of insight into the race. In short, zerg is the most strategically challenging race.
perfecting the art of five pool forever
ProoM
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Lithuania1741 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 22:36:27
April 24 2010 22:28 GMT
#18
On April 22 2010 15:00 Spazer wrote:

The reason why people use 9 pool is so that the probe can't block your drone from putting down another hatch.

Welllll not exactly ;P. overpool is used to get early enough lings to destroy pylon blocks early enough + to force 2 cannons before nexus (even tho many P's are trying to get away with cannon-nexus-cannon, but they have to cut probes for it ). 9 pool is used for all of these + ability to deny scouting early enough for P to be worried. Also, 9 pool (imo) works better against 2 gate or 1 gate tech, but other than that, overpool vs fe is better ;P.


As for standard unit compositions, to answer OP question:
("->" = transition)
ZvZ:
Lings -> Muta/scourge

ZvT
Muta/Ling->Lurker/ling/defiler->Ultra/ling

ZvP
a) Speedlings -> Lurker/Ling + Mutas
b) Hydras -> Hydra/Lurker (<3 this ;P)
IMBA - International Mountain Bicycling Association.
DreaM)XeRO
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Korea (South)4667 Posts
April 25 2010 00:34 GMT
#19
ZvP

you shouldnt ALWAYS go 9 pool. if the map is 4 player or long rush distance its a waste
he can get away with 1 cannon and sim city. instead go for an overpool into expansion

forces him to get his cannons ANYWAYS.

transition into 3 hatch lair/spire. If you dont want mutals transition into 5 hatch hydras
and pump baby. Get lurker aspect and secure your 4th gas and hive up
cw)minsean(ru
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