EPTHow do i counter this? is the 3 hatch mutas that i'm so used to still viable?
thanks..
[ZvT] How to counter mech terran?
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Tacticas
Israel74 Posts
How do i counter this? is the 3 hatch mutas that i'm so used to still viable? thanks.. | ||
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saritenite
Singapore1680 Posts
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Tacticas
Israel74 Posts
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Sky.Technique
United States271 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=89581 Go under the "race specific" column please. It makes me sort of mad when people are obs'in with me in zvt and they are liike "why isnt he tech'in to hive and is only doin hydra/muta and stuff, how is he mass expandin like this and gettin away with it" | ||
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Gao Xi
Hong Kong5178 Posts
Regarding the problem: Since they're going for mech, you can delay your mutas and power drones longer, and get your 3rd base out faster. For example if you where playing on destination, and the terran mechs, you throw down a hydra den instead of a spire, get 2-3 hydras to block the bridge to your 3rd, and power drones for a bit, then get a spire. The thing with mech is, they cannot strike you early, except with vultures so, you can get more drones out early. You can go for 3 hatch mutas, however i find that the terrans will have turrets and some goliaths to defend and it isn't as effective as it could be. When facing the terran mech ball, it is important to target fire tanks, and attacking the ball before seige tanks are seiged. Unit composition is important, you will need mutas always with your hydras, because mutas will draw goliath fire, while your hydras will snipe the tanks. So what I do is: 9 drone - scout 12 hatch @ expo 11 spawning pool 13 hatch - inbase -After you put down your 3rd hatch get an extractor- Once the spawning pool finishes build 2 or 6 lings. 16 Overlord 1st 100 gas, get a lair 2nd 100 gas, get speed and 2nd extractor By now you should have an idea of whether he is going mech or not. If you see hes going mech: throw down a hydra den, and a sunken @ your nat get your 4th hatch at your 3rd base, and block the bridge with 2-3 hydras you should be powering drones after you know hes going mech, once you throw down your 4th hatch, get a spire, and proceed to save larva at 300/600 spire life, and have atleast 18 pop space. You should get +1 missle attack first then +1 carapace. You should get hive pretty fast, but not as fast as you would if you were playing Bio, swarm really helps. You get hive around 4 gases usually. Once you have swarm, you should be getting ultras. Since the terran usually has a shit ton of tanks that will just rip through hydras even under swarm. If you're attacking the mech ball while seige tanks are seiged, bring some lings and throw them first to draw tank fire, and move in with your hydras just behind the lings. | ||
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
dont get hive btw you dont need that shit vs mech | ||
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G3nXsiS
United States656 Posts
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nttea
Sweden4353 Posts
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Juno
United States3 Posts
and not every terran do mech... | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
hive is only important for me to get if i want +3. always upgrade air carapace if you're planning on using mutas. golis rape them otherwise. | ||
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Housemd
United States1407 Posts
If you see him going mech, use his lack of mobility to expand and all out attack towards the mid game. Also, knowing the map can help you a lot as well. As i mentioned above, you need to use his lack of mobility and drop a couple of cracklings/ultras/hydras everywhere along the map where he has expos, since he will have to run his scvs due to that fact he cant get reinforcements quickly enough which will damage his econ. Don't try to engage the army head on, try to weaken them slowly...kill a few tanks with hydras, re-mass hydras and attack again. Remember, zerg can produce units faster then terran. Also, defend early vulture harass..gl | ||
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lokiM
United States3407 Posts
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Gao Xi
Hong Kong5178 Posts
On March 21 2010 22:42 lazz wrote: hydras.. mutas... expand a shitload.. dont get hive btw you dont need that shit vs mech what? Ultras under swarm take very little damage, goliaths and vultures do no damage to units under swarm. It should help a lot versus a late game mech army with a lot of tanks. | ||
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
On March 22 2010 04:47 Gao Xi wrote: what? Ultras under swarm take very little damage, goliaths and vultures do no damage to units under swarm. It should help a lot versus a late game mech army with a lot of tanks. you're ignoring mines? what part of defilerultraling counters mines? | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
There are two threats. 1) Early game vulture / drop / wraith cheese 2) Late game army control and map domination by siege tanks Many games will end because of the first factor. You should first try to get past it. I use a modified 3-hatch muta build to get through 1). You can indeed choose 3-hatch muta, but not in its pure form. The build I use: 12hatch 13pool (assuming I scout no 8rax rush -- I scout early enough to tell. if he goes 8 rax, 11pool it and then 14hatch, then 4 lings) 15hatch 17gas 17creep colony at nat Lair with 100 gas Den with 50 gas 24Ovie 3 hydras till 27 More hydras if wraiths start coming, also build spores if 2port wraith Spire once Lair finishes Sunk in main once Lair finishes if no wraith (protect against vult drop, though you should have enough hydras anyway -- this is just a precaution) 9 mutas Expo as quickly as possible 11 mutas Muta carapace Make mutas until he gets a science facility (by scouting well) Meanwhile, upgrade Hydra attack first, then carapace, attack, then carapace. If you see a Science Facility go up, go Hydra speed / range. There's no benefit of getting ling speed with 3-hatch muta. If you want to block vultures, use buildings. If you want to break his wall... well, because he'll have vultures, the only time speedlings will work is if you catch him offguard (doesn't happen often). Also, if you don't get a hydra den with the next 50 gas after lair, you'll lose to a well-executed 2port wraith. Watch this replay against a strong Terran going 2port wraith -- you'll see that I have hydras JUST in time for his wraiths (but not enough, so I end up losing the game). The key is to get a good number of hydras, whether you plan on using them for offense or not. Then you can transition to mutas or whatnot. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3789 TADStRyKeRZ zjflwl1ckT.rep As many people have pointed out, you need LOTS OF SHIT midgame. Not because you want to attack necessarily, but because a pre-Hive mech ball push is possible, and you want to be able to counter when that happens (don't face his army head-on without swarm). Get Hive for late game. Position hydra / lurkers at important chokes, use Dark Swarm to prevent them from expos. The plan is to starve them off and hold them at 3 bases max while you take the rest of the map. I disagree with getting Ultralisks under any circumstance in ZvMech. They are the worst unit against sieged Tanks, even under swarm. They are also a purely offensive unit, and this strategy of whoring till minerals run out is best served by defensive, ranged units. Here's a good replay of mine demonstrating the entire gamut: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3774 lionLouiskT TADStRyKeZ.rep Key points: * Use sim-city (building placement) to block vulture runbys. * Get many hydras early to block cheese, but not too many to cut into your eco. * Whore drones. ZvMech is not a low-econ match-up. * Make as many expos as you can get away with as early as possible. Mech takes a while to materialize an army. * Upgrade Muta armor twice, then attack upgrade twice, then armor then attack. You want armor upgrades because they are your meat shields against Goliaths while your Hydras rape everything. Also useful to get armor beacause if they go Valks, Mutas+armor shrug them off easily. * Upgrade Hydra attack, then carapace, attack, carapace. Hydras are supposed to be the major damage dealers. * Your mid-game army should be Hydra + Muta. Harass scvs if you can with mutas, but don't lose them carelessly. * Mutas => Tanks, Hydras => Goliaths. * Make LOTS OF SHIT mid game for the purpose of countering if he makes a timed pre-Hive push. * If he comes at you before making a 3rd, counter. Do NOT attack his army head on. He'll wipe out your main but you'll wipe out all his buildings, so it's a good trade. Just keep running away and expoing at random places and continue to build mutas one by one. Your army will get larger, his smaller. *You DO want to get to Hive as soon as possible, but only after making enough shit that forces him to take a 3rd instead of pushing out. * Get Hive, research Lurker and Consume. Put your hydras / lurkers / defilers in places where he would expo and expo there yourself. It's a money game from there. Just starve him. * The best part of this strategy is that it wins using what the Zerg does best -- expo whore and defend with Dark Swarm, same as in ZvBio. Let the Terran come to you, always, because it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to break into a sieged mass of tanks. * What if he gets position, sieges up 20 tanks, gets mass expos, and just sits there? The answer is simple: you shouldn't have gotten into that situation in the first place. | ||
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Gao Xi
Hong Kong5178 Posts
On March 22 2010 05:08 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: you're ignoring mines? what part of defilerultraling counters mines? You can mine drag with lings? | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On March 22 2010 05:32 StRyKeR wrote: The response build depends heavily on the type of mech strategy the Terran chooses to do. There are a number of mixed opinions about what to do versus mech late game, but here's my experience-based opinion on ZvMech. There are two threats. 1) Early game vulture / drop / wraith cheese 2) Late game army control and map domination by siege tanks Many games will end because of the first factor. You should first try to get past it. I use a modified 3-hatch muta build to get through 1). You can indeed choose 3-hatch muta, but not in its pure form. The build I use: 12hatch 13pool (assuming I scout no 8rax rush -- I scout early enough to tell. if he goes 8 rax, 11pool it and then 14hatch, then 4 lings) 15hatch 17gas 17creep colony at nat Lair with 100 gas Den with 50 gas 24Ovie 3 hydras till 27 More hydras if wraiths start coming, also build spores if 2port wraith Spire once Lair finishes Sunk in main once Lair finishes if no wraith (protect against vult drop, though you should have enough hydras anyway -- this is just a precaution) 9 mutas Expo as quickly as possible 11 mutas Muta carapace Make mutas until he gets a science facility (by scouting well) Meanwhile, upgrade Hydra attack first, then carapace, attack, then carapace. If you see a Science Facility go up, go Hydra speed / range. There's no benefit of getting ling speed with 3-hatch muta. If you want to block vultures, use buildings. If you want to break his wall... well, because he'll have vultures, the only time speedlings will work is if you catch him offguard (doesn't happen often). Also, if you don't get a hydra den with the next 50 gas after lair, you'll lose to a well-executed 2port wraith. Watch this replay against a strong Terran going 2port wraith -- you'll see that I have hydras JUST in time for his wraiths (but not enough, so I end up losing the game). The key is to get a good number of hydras, whether you plan on using them for offense or not. Then you can transition to mutas or whatnot. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3789 TADStRyKeRZ zjflwl1ckT.rep As many people have pointed out, you need LOTS OF SHIT midgame. Not because you want to attack necessarily, but because a pre-Hive mech ball push is possible, and you want to be able to counter when that happens (don't face his army head-on without swarm). Get Hive for late game. Position hydra / lurkers at important chokes, use Dark Swarm to prevent them from expos. The plan is to starve them off and hold them at 3 bases max while you take the rest of the map. I disagree with getting Ultralisks under any circumstance in ZvMech. They are the worst unit against sieged Tanks, even under swarm. They are also a purely offensive unit, and this strategy of whoring till minerals run out is best served by defensive, ranged units. Here's a good replay of mine demonstrating the entire gamut: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3774 lionLouiskT TADStRyKeZ.rep Key points: * Use sim-city (building placement) to block vulture runbys. * Get many hydras early to block cheese, but not too many to cut into your eco. * Whore drones. ZvMech is not a low-econ match-up. * Make as many expos as you can get away with as early as possible. Mech takes a while to materialize an army. * Upgrade Muta armor twice, then attack upgrade twice, then armor then attack. You want armor upgrades because they are your meat shields against Goliaths while your Hydras rape everything. Also useful to get armor beacause if they go Valks, Mutas+armor shrug them off easily. * Upgrade Hydra attack, then carapace, attack, carapace. Hydras are supposed to be the major damage dealers. * Your mid-game army should be Hydra + Muta. Harass scvs if you can with mutas, but don't lose them carelessly. * Mutas => Tanks, Hydras => Goliaths. * Make LOTS OF SHIT mid game for the purpose of countering if he makes a timed pre-Hive push. * If he comes at you before making a 3rd, counter. Do NOT attack his army head on. He'll wipe out your main but you'll wipe out all his buildings, so it's a good trade. Just keep running away and expoing at random places and continue to build mutas one by one. Your army will get larger, his smaller. *You DO want to get to Hive as soon as possible, but only after making enough shit that forces him to take a 3rd instead of pushing out. * Get Hive, research Lurker and Consume. Put your hydras / lurkers / defilers in places where he would expo and expo there yourself. It's a money game from there. Just starve him. * The best part of this strategy is that it wins using what the Zerg does best -- expo whore and defend with Dark Swarm, same as in ZvBio. Let the Terran come to you, always, because it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to break into a sieged mass of tanks. * What if he gets position, sieges up 20 tanks, gets mass expos, and just sits there? The answer is simple: you shouldn't have gotten into that situation in the first place. It would be a shame to close the thread after this post... | ||
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Papvin
Denmark610 Posts
On March 22 2010 07:30 Saracen wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 22 2010 05:32 StRyKeR wrote: The response build depends heavily on the type of mech strategy the Terran chooses to do. There are a number of mixed opinions about what to do versus mech late game, but here's my experience-based opinion on ZvMech. There are two threats. 1) Early game vulture / drop / wraith cheese 2) Late game army control and map domination by siege tanks Many games will end because of the first factor. You should first try to get past it. I use a modified 3-hatch muta build to get through 1). You can indeed choose 3-hatch muta, but not in its pure form. The build I use: 12hatch 13pool (assuming I scout no 8rax rush -- I scout early enough to tell. if he goes 8 rax, 11pool it and then 14hatch, then 4 lings) 15hatch 17gas 17creep colony at nat Lair with 100 gas Den with 50 gas 24Ovie 3 hydras till 27 More hydras if wraiths start coming, also build spores if 2port wraith Spire once Lair finishes Sunk in main once Lair finishes if no wraith (protect against vult drop, though you should have enough hydras anyway -- this is just a precaution) 9 mutas Expo as quickly as possible 11 mutas Muta carapace Make mutas until he gets a science facility (by scouting well) Meanwhile, upgrade Hydra attack first, then carapace, attack, then carapace. If you see a Science Facility go up, go Hydra speed / range. There's no benefit of getting ling speed with 3-hatch muta. If you want to block vultures, use buildings. If you want to break his wall... well, because he'll have vultures, the only time speedlings will work is if you catch him offguard (doesn't happen often). Also, if you don't get a hydra den with the next 50 gas after lair, you'll lose to a well-executed 2port wraith. Watch this replay against a strong Terran going 2port wraith -- you'll see that I have hydras JUST in time for his wraiths (but not enough, so I end up losing the game). The key is to get a good number of hydras, whether you plan on using them for offense or not. Then you can transition to mutas or whatnot. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3789 TADStRyKeRZ zjflwl1ckT.rep As many people have pointed out, you need LOTS OF SHIT midgame. Not because you want to attack necessarily, but because a pre-Hive mech ball push is possible, and you want to be able to counter when that happens (don't face his army head-on without swarm). Get Hive for late game. Position hydra / lurkers at important chokes, use Dark Swarm to prevent them from expos. The plan is to starve them off and hold them at 3 bases max while you take the rest of the map. I disagree with getting Ultralisks under any circumstance in ZvMech. They are the worst unit against sieged Tanks, even under swarm. They are also a purely offensive unit, and this strategy of whoring till minerals run out is best served by defensive, ranged units. Here's a good replay of mine demonstrating the entire gamut: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3774 lionLouiskT TADStRyKeZ.rep Key points: * Use sim-city (building placement) to block vulture runbys. * Get many hydras early to block cheese, but not too many to cut into your eco. * Whore drones. ZvMech is not a low-econ match-up. * Make as many expos as you can get away with as early as possible. Mech takes a while to materialize an army. * Upgrade Muta armor twice, then attack upgrade twice, then armor then attack. You want armor upgrades because they are your meat shields against Goliaths while your Hydras rape everything. Also useful to get armor beacause if they go Valks, Mutas+armor shrug them off easily. * Upgrade Hydra attack, then carapace, attack, carapace. Hydras are supposed to be the major damage dealers. * Your mid-game army should be Hydra + Muta. Harass scvs if you can with mutas, but don't lose them carelessly. * Mutas => Tanks, Hydras => Goliaths. * Make LOTS OF SHIT mid game for the purpose of countering if he makes a timed pre-Hive push. * If he comes at you before making a 3rd, counter. Do NOT attack his army head on. He'll wipe out your main but you'll wipe out all his buildings, so it's a good trade. Just keep running away and expoing at random places and continue to build mutas one by one. Your army will get larger, his smaller. *You DO want to get to Hive as soon as possible, but only after making enough shit that forces him to take a 3rd instead of pushing out. * Get Hive, research Lurker and Consume. Put your hydras / lurkers / defilers in places where he would expo and expo there yourself. It's a money game from there. Just starve him. * The best part of this strategy is that it wins using what the Zerg does best -- expo whore and defend with Dark Swarm, same as in ZvBio. Let the Terran come to you, always, because it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to break into a sieged mass of tanks. * What if he gets position, sieges up 20 tanks, gets mass expos, and just sits there? The answer is simple: you shouldn't have gotten into that situation in the first place. It would be a shame to close the thread after this post... Amen to that. Stryker's posts are always so thorough (spelling?) and spot on. Horrible op, completely amazing repsonse. | ||
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ChApFoU
France2982 Posts
There was an amazing mech T vs Z VOD around here not too long ago. The Terran was Flash but I don't remember who the zerg was, maybe Kwanro. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
On March 22 2010 16:54 ChApFoU wrote: I've been away from the game for quite a time too but as far as I remember mech vs zerg is kinda weak on most map and is countered by muta/ling into ultra/cracks/defiler. You might want to get ranged hydra if he's harassing hardcore with vultures early on. Don't forget that if you see him getting short of gas and lacking of vessels and goliath you can revert back to a surprise mass muta scourge. There was an amazing mech T vs Z VOD around here not too long ago. The Terran was Flash but I don't remember who the zerg was, maybe Kwanro. that game was more like how not to play against mech haha | ||
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0mgVitaminE
United States1278 Posts
On March 22 2010 16:54 ChApFoU wrote: I've been away from the game for quite a time too but as far as I remember mech vs zerg is kinda weak on most map and is countered by muta/ling into ultra/cracks/defiler. You might want to get ranged hydra if he's harassing hardcore with vultures early on. Don't forget that if you see him getting short of gas and lacking of vessels and goliath you can revert back to a surprise mass muta scourge. There was an amazing mech T vs Z VOD around here not too long ago. The Terran was Flash but I don't remember who the zerg was, maybe Kwanro. Day[9] advises against getting ultra to face mech. Because they have so much hp, they take all the damage mech can throw at you instead of cutting it short like a ling would. They are very cost ineffective, and so he recommends a mix of hydra/muta/ling abusing your mobility early to take a ton of expansions. Already been posted, but if you haven't listened to day[9]'s podcast on this, just do that. | ||
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unionbank
Australia666 Posts
I refer to the complex spectrum in terms of the many variations of Mech Terran such as fantasy build/vulture run by/vulture drop/pure goliaths/tanks.. However i will teach you some vital skills required to handle whatever Mech you face. In the simple spectrum i refer to the simplicity of the game plan and that is out number your opponents units, out number his expansions and don't let him expand to more than 3-4 gas. Simple but its not as easy as it seems. At lower level D-/D/D+ verse a Mech you should mainly be looking at pumping 2 primary units and that is the Zergling and Hydralisk. Everyone seems to underestimate the power of Zerglings against Mech late game. A combination of Zerglings and Hydra's is way more devastating than just pure Hydra's or Muta's OR Hydra and Muta. And of course going Hive late game is also very vital for the upgrade as well as Defilers. Defilers enhance the potential power of Zerglings and is key ingredient in weakening the Immense power of Mech. When taking on Mech and you have scouted his early gas that is going up simultaneously with the Barracks he will 90% of the time make 1-2 vultures but if his doing a mine/speed vulture slaughter build where he pumps many vultures to some how scrummage his way through your choke point then you will lose unless you lose no drones whatsoever. A good way to prevent these vulture run by's is by placing you're Overlords in the correct spots to see what his doing if you see no speed upgrade and only mine, you know his expanding and making goliaths. Although i cannot explain the nitty gritty of everything i would just like to summarise make sunkens early on to prevent Vulture's block your choke if possible with hydra's/Lings and put the overlords in the right spot to scout what his doing ( most important )** and i personally like to go early Hydra Den as well as the Ranged and Carapace upgrade for that extra fire power. And the last thing that i want to say which is a big mistake many Z players make against Mech Terran is NEVER i repeat NEVER battle front on against a Seiged line of tanks and mines and goliaths and what not UNLESS you outnumber his units so immensely and only when you have so many hatcheries and so much resources available and even that i don't encourage. Play tag with the Terran. Your the mouse his the Cat his fat and slow and lazy run and run around terrorizing his expo's never walk front on into him, drop his main drop his natural drop his expo's do whatever it takes to make him work for it. -Intermediate Mech expert analyst/specialist. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66156 Posts
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Sky.Technique
United States271 Posts
On March 21 2010 21:53 Gao Xi wrote: This should be in strategy. Regarding the problem: You should get hive pretty fast, but not as fast as you would if you were playing Bio, swarm really helps. You get hive around 4 gases usually. Once you have swarm, you should be getting ultras. Since the terran usually has a shit ton of tanks that will just rip through hydras even under swarm. If you're attacking the mech ball while seige tanks are seiged, bring some lings and throw them first to draw tank fire, and move in with your hydras just behind the lings. um no.. tanks deal over 70 amage, if you replaced those ultras with lings here is what would happen (assuming you mass hydra/muta as you should, then sprinkle in lings to take the initial fire instead of ultras) 1. you minimize the damage that tanks can do (tanks vs ultras will do full damage, while vs lings they would do a max of 35 damage 2. have more money for other stuff 3. if you continue ultra production then any halfway decent terran (flash did this too) will jhust mine up the field and your ultras will pop so fast, and its very bad for you because that is a lot of gas a common misconception is to get a lot of carapace upgrades fast. well vs mech your shit is gonna die super fast, it is more important to do as much damage to the mech ball as humanly possible, you should max out on your attack first, prioritize your attack dmg upgrade, then if you want you can get carapace, but it is not htat effective dont be afraid to expand zerg!! and one of the main reasons i used to lose to mech is i never kept hydras/mutas/ near my expaansions to ward off the vultures. even if a vulture gets one drone kill iit was worth it, keep like a sunken or two (even inside your main base, since vultures running past your nat sunken line is not uncommon (trust me)) as mentioned earlier, just get a lot of stuff, dont rely on lurkers/hive as much (im not sayin defilers are bad, but use it for plague more then dark swarm) and please listen to the day9 podcast i linked, day9 basically says the same stuff i am On March 21 2010 22:42 lazz wrote: hydras.. mutas... expand a shitload.. dont get hive btw you dont need that shit vs mech yes you do somewhat neeed it. when you hear day9 say stuff about hive vs mech, he is saying you shouldnt RELY on hive as much as vs bio which iss why you get it later edit: i see a lot lot of people here saying hydra/ling is the way to go, and i disagree. you SHOULD sprinkle in some lings if you odnt have them, just to soak the initial fire, but here is the logic behind hydra/muta 1. (terrans point of view) oh he has a lot of hydra, ill just make mass tanks then i can push out) 2. terran is about to push out and sees a shit load of mutas. "ok now i need some mass goliath here to counter the mutas" do you see what is happening here? by havin hydra/muta (and lings ^^) you are DELAYING his inevitable push, and delaying that push that long means more expansions for you, N A SHIT LOAD MORE UNITS to crush his push, and when he does finally push out, you will have like 4 control groups of hydras and 4 control groups of mutas then you can just attack move ftw or if your kwanro you can ling bomb(lol) | ||
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knightpraetor
United States180 Posts
Almost every game they have enough turrets and quickly build up goliath count so I can't snipe many goliaths /turrets; freaking range. if i opened 2 hatch should i just get the minimal 6 and transition into hydras while expoing and droning fast, simila to what i do with 3 hatc muta? i thought that most pros go valk early on in a fantasy type build to hold, but i can't even deal much damage when they just go fact with goliaths and range to defend | ||
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Tajja
United States33 Posts
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WuzzupPeeps
130 Posts
From then on it's really preference, some people prefer hydra/muta, some people prefer hydraling, some people prefer hive play. I'm much more lenient towards mass hydra/muta and delay that hive tech a lot until I have a monstrous economy. Make sure that you're making a ton of bases. This is an absolute must versus mech. First of all, taking more bases means that that mech player has less bases to take himself. 2, if he decides to push out and tries to kill your expos, you can just counterrack and kill his third/nat/whatever base, a terran losing a base hurts a lot more than you losing 350 minerals and some drones. I find many lower leveled mech players to be overly aggressive with their midgame units, but more competent mech players would concentrate more on just setting up a ton of bases and making a crapload of defenses. Against the former just spam some hotkeys with your hatches and push him back with box select and a-move as early timing windows for terran mech pushes are really thin unless he managed to do a ton of damage with vultures/drops. Against the latter just take more bases, don't have to saturate each of them but just having some mining is fine. Make sure that your terran opponent isn't expanding too much beyond a third or fourth base. Once you build up a ton of resources, spam some hatches and attack him with your huge 200 force. If you didn't screw up too bad you would lose your whole army but doing some decent damage to the T as well. Then with your massive amount of hatches just produce another 200 army and repeat until you break the terran defences. Do note that this is my style of play but you may prefer hive play over this if you have more success. But from my experience, one thing that I seriously stress is to never make ultralisks. Against m&m they're great but vs mech they're the worst possible things you could make. Tanks and mines will wipe out half your ultras and by the time they arrive at their targets another round of tank shots would take out them all. Lower tier units are much more effective vs mech. | ||
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TwoPac
United States163 Posts
On March 22 2010 04:47 Gao Xi wrote: what? Ultras under swarm take very little damage, goliaths and vultures do no damage to units under swarm. It should help a lot versus a late game mech army with a lot of tanks. Ultralisks MELT under tank fire. +6 carapce doesnt do shit vs 85 splash. | ||
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jakel
36 Posts
Ahzz has amazing videos on how to deal with mech and I definitely recommend going to his youtube channel and watching zvt mech. A couple rules I would say -expand like crazy - this has been pointed out a lot but it's important to realize how vital this is. You are able to expand fairly early and secure at least 3 bases, if not more. -don't throw expensive units around (there's an argument going on and Ultralisks are NOT effective against mech AT ALL) stick to hydra/muta with upgrades and maybe some lings to spend any extra money - Don't worry about rushing to hive - hive is mainly important for defilers and upgrades but that doesn't mean it's anywhere near as vital as it is in zvt bio. Just chill at lair for a bit until you can comfortably take it without any risk. - Build units to counter his - if he makes tanks, make mutas and when he makes goliaths, make hydras- this keeps you in control of unit production and makes life living hell for him as he tries to counter what you make -don't fall behind in upgrades - with all those bases you should definitely be able to afford it - as a rule of thumb (for me) I follow Ahzz's advice and get a hydra den with my FIRST 50 gas after 3 hatches are down. This negates any vulture harass (with 1 sunken and 1-3 hydra(s) at ramp) and also severely limits the 2 port wraith build. So in summary, ultras and lurkers are fantastic against bio, but hydra/muta is much more effective against mech. EXPAND EVERYWHERE keep up on upgrades and don't panic when you see mech and as long as you can handle vulture harass you can easily secure enough bases to win EDIT : When he moves out, consider a small (not too small like 12-16lings?) drop in his main just to keep him on his toes and make him paranoid. EDIT 2: Defilers still rock | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
I think his livestream is livestream.com/striderdoom but if its not then just search day 9 daily on the TL search bar. | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
On March 25 2010 00:52 SubtleArt wrote: Day9 answers it best. Watch his analysis of Effort v Ruby on eye of the storm and Kwanro v Puma on Judgement day. I think his livestream is livestream.com/striderdoom but if its not then just search day 9 daily on the TL search bar. Also yes you need mutas AND hydras. Pure hydra allows him to mass as many tanks as he feels like massing while hydra / muta forces goliaths and turrets as well as gives more options for harass. As a Terran I always lose to mech when zerg expands a lot in the midgame. Screw the bio ZvT concept of holding him back with mutas to secure a 3rd. Just take an extra 2 bases early in the midgame cause midgame mech pushes are weak as hell and you can generally crap out a ton of stuff if Terran pushes midgame. Oh and always 3 hatch vs mech...its almost always better. You don't have maphacks (I hope) so you can't know right away if its mech but on maps like desti where bio is shit just 3 hatch right away This is from a terran perspective btw. | ||
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
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Bibbit
Canada5377 Posts
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