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Hi all, there's been some threads about ZvP, a recent one describing Zerg's recent metagame trends in having advantage over P, as the Zerg metagame has reached the point where the muta batch is used to snipe templars, allowing for Protoss's army size to be reduced through psi storm reduction.
Everyone knows that P relies a lot on those storms to keep their army equivalent or greater in size to Z's army. Pure zealot/dragoon/archon gets ravaged by pure hydralisk, ling, lurker and it's always been like that for the most part.
P had their times, the original 2 gate opening which led to a lot of zvp imba discussion, 1 gate tech with stargate, then finally FE variations, +1 legspeed after FE, the FE into corsair reaver, FE into 4 gate zealot/archon for that push on destination, FE into zealot/sair, all of this.
Z has matched them all the way, and it seems the point that most modern ZvP/PvZ are at are the accumulation of hydralisks and then a batch of mutas at an appropriate timing to snipe protoss templars which essentially resets the army advantage back into Z's favor for long enough to make that advantage into a larger advantage.
Now, I do not do the statistics, I know there are those that love to get in the nitty gritty and rely even solely on statistics of match-up percentages, which is great and fine, so I will not get into any statistics.
What I do want to bring up for discussion is not anything *new,* or even necessarily innovative - it's the Dark Archon. What I do want to bring up for discussion and thought is it's new possible use in the current PvZ/ZvP metagame coinciding with the timing of that one batch of Zerg mutalisks that is used to snipe protoss templar.
The unit has been used for ages, especially lategame PvZ by many players for maelstrom vs ultralisk masses but the metagame use of the unit has been very limited in that respect, as there is no set timing established by professionals or even foreigners to begin producing a Dark Archon.
Not to mention there was never a need. The Dark Archon is virtually limited in it's metagame usage, as it's a unit that is time and energy dependent, that has no guaranteed pay off for creating. It does not do direct damage, so it's net worth is not added into your army.
But now there is a clear need for the Dark Archon in this muta-stacking and templar-sniping age of the metagame. I think the Dark archon more than ever now will end up having a place in the PvZ mid-game at that timing of the mutalisk snipe group - but only if players begin to use it, and start grinding in a specific timing to produce that dark archon.
When a Zerg player creates that batch of mutas, it is essentially the same purpose for which a player would build 1 queen, or 1 dark archon, or get one early science vessel - for that one limited metagame use at that timing of the game.
The "Bisu Build" or style of play going straight to corsairs, and using dark templar to harrass, can be effective, but Zergs are so used to it now, that it's shut down relatively easily.
But, the build and style should not be dismissed by current progamers or us now because I think you can use the same exact style and build but now branch it off to make that specific timing for building up Dark Archon energy.
Rather than attempt for a harrass that in the current metagame we know has a high percentage of being stopped, I think players need to start experimenting with using the same dark templars of bisu style of play for a dark archon to accumulate energy for maelstrom, while then playing "straight up" and accumulating the normal gateway based templar/zealot/goon ground army.
Like I mentioned, I do not think it is anything new to use the Dark Archon to specificly maelstrom a harrassment group of mutalisks, but I do think specificly planning 1 Dark Archon into Protoss builds in preparation for the mid-game muta sniping of templar is a new-ish metagame idea that is not seeing much usage.
The main thing is having a set timing for adding the Dark Archon into the build so it can accumulate energy. Then ideally, when Protoss is moving out with a templar/gateway based army, Protoss's army size will be able to remain the same as Zerg's due to maelstrom preventing templar sniping. Zergs will essentially be putting dead cash into that typical mutalisk group.
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If the zerg ever gets to ultras it would be awesome to just mind control 6-7 of them. Vs lurk/hyra it's simply not worth it/you can use your apm for storms or reaver micro instead.
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Interesting idea, even though I think it will be prone to a zerg taking another expansion while you are researching maelstorm.
Would be nice to see a good progamer pull it off (or even just a foreigner).
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The only problem is, a lot of times the zerg would tech switch right as the templars are starting to be produced, leaving not enough energy for the dark archon to maelstorm until later on. The point of the mutalisks are to either use up the storms or kill the hts since the mutas arrive at a timing where there aren't that many hts yet. Unless you can get your templar archives out early enough to get 2 dts and 2 hts instead of simply 4 hts and research maelstorm at the same time, your 1st few templars will be either morphed into archons or attacked.
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It seems a bit costly though. You have two dts + the research cost. It would have to come after storm research though, or otherwise muta harass would be too dangerous. I mean, sair/dt defends well against mutas, but aren't there usually ht to help block?
And with a sair/dt build, P would be focused on limiting the Z to maybe 3 bases max since the dts would prevent expos. Yet the investment into DA would allow zerg to macro up and could afford the loss in mutas thanks to the increase in economy.
I would think this would only be viable on certain maps, ones where muta harass would be weak or the 3rd/ 4th base extremely hard to take (perhaps HBR??)
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Duh, havent you seen replays where people get mealstrom before storm and then have one archon clean up the mutas since they were all bunched.
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On October 12 2009 05:20 GreEny K wrote:
Duh, havent you seen replays where people get mealstrom before storm and then have one archon clean up the mutas since they were all bunched.
Mind sharing one?
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Maelstrom has an incredibly fast research speed. Also, players like Violet are already starting to use dark archons much more prevalently.
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On October 12 2009 05:22 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2009 05:20 GreEny K wrote:
Duh, havent you seen replays where people get mealstrom before storm and then have one archon clean up the mutas since they were all bunched. Mind sharing one?
Check out the Pusan vs ych rep that was just uploaded, has 2 nice maelstroms (maelstrom researched before storm).
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From what I have seen so far:
Early DA in current builds (for building 200 energy before you move out) allows the zerg to safely take another expansion. If you only aim for 100 energy, you should get 2 DAs, or else you rely completely on the success of that one maelstrom. 2 DAs cost a lot, though.
Imo a DA isn't as expensive as everyone claims all the time, though. 2 DTs + maelstrom costs about as much gas as an archon. The additional minerals would only go into zealots anyways. But savong a few HTs is worth much more than 2 zealots + 1 Archon, considering the timing of templar snipes.
Also, if you manage to maelstrom a group of mutas (should be 9 or more since they are used for HT sniping), and kill them with archons/storm, you killed units worth 900/900. That's the price of 2 DAs. And you hopefully saved a few HTs that way, another 100/300 or more. Plus the added army strength due to more storms if you saved more than 2 HTs (otherwise the gas would have been spent on HTs).
If you open with some sair/dt build, you can use the leftover DTs once zerg gets overlord speed. Not sure how well the timing fits, but I'd assume you'd have a hard time getting 200 energy when you move out that way.
DAs also have the advantage that they have a ton of shields (your gas is much safer than if you spend it on HTs) and are quite fast. They work well later in the game, feedback on defilers and maelstrom on ultras.
@ slOosh:
Actually DAs are much better for fending off mutas than HTs. Storms hit your own units too (mutas over minline...), while maelstrom only affects zealots, DTs and HTs. A group of maelstromed mutas is easily taken down by an Archon, HT or a few corsairs. Mutas can easily live through 3 or more storms unless mismicroed, so HTs are much less of a help than DAs. And they are easily sniped.
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The main concern are the APM requirements at the Pro-level. As Jaedong famously said, his use of queens are limited because of the APM and multitasking demands, as well as army control and flanking taking the priority over ensnare.
The Dark Archon sees use sparingly for much the same reason, but the main concern is that casting storm often takes the priority over casting any Dark Archon Spells.
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But aren't HT much more versatile than DA's? Perhaps Bisu would be able to do it because he can keep his scout alive, but say you lose the probe around halfway through lair (when there's ling speed done and lurkers and mutas are both possible). Corsairs come out around the time spire is ~75% or so. If you fly over and see a bunch of lurks, the contain would be that much more effective and DA would be useless (Can't remember if mael works on lurks, but either way mael takes 100 energy and you would still take more casualties than if you used storm).
It would only work if you know that they will go mutas. Otherwise 2/3 hydra or lurker contain would kill this DA build so much.
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On October 12 2009 05:51 slOosh wrote:
But aren't HT much more versatile than DA's? Perhaps Bisu would be able to do it because he can keep his scout alive, but say you lose the probe around halfway through lair (when there's ling speed done and lurkers and mutas are both possible). Corsairs come out around the time spire is ~75% or so. If you fly over and see a bunch of lurks, the contain would be that much more effective and DA would be useless (Can't remember if mael works on lurks, but either way mael takes 100 energy and you would still take more casualties than if you used storm).
It would only work if you know that they will go mutas. Otherwise 2/3 hydra or lurker contain would kill this DA build so much.
Maelstrom is also very good at stopping observer sniping, I would actually say better than Storm is. The issue is that it's slightly more expensive energy-wise and a DA is more expensive than a ht. 250/250 instead of 50/150.
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On October 12 2009 05:22 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2009 05:20 GreEny K wrote:
Duh, havent you seen replays where people get mealstrom before storm and then have one archon clean up the mutas since they were all bunched. Mind sharing one?
actually there : http://www.iccup.com/replays/65771.html
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On October 12 2009 05:10 valaki wrote:
If the zerg ever gets to ultras it would be awesome to just mind control 6-7 of them. Vs lurk/hyra it's simply not worth it/you can use your apm for storms or reaver micro instead.
LOL watched a Lz vs G5 on Destination yesterday where exactly this happened
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On October 12 2009 05:10 valaki wrote:
If the zerg ever gets to ultras it would be awesome to just mind control 6-7 of them. Vs lurk/hyra it's simply not worth it/you can use your apm for storms or reaver micro instead.
MC sux. Too much energy and it only gets one unit.
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I bet you wrote this after you saw yCh[z-zone] vs PuSan[S.G].
This is old idea and it's been used many years ago..
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On October 12 2009 05:51 slOosh wrote:
But aren't HT much more versatile than DA's? Perhaps Bisu would be able to do it because he can keep his scout alive, but say you lose the probe around halfway through lair (when there's ling speed done and lurkers and mutas are both possible). Corsairs come out around the time spire is ~75% or so. If you fly over and see a bunch of lurks, the contain would be that much more effective and DA would be useless (Can't remember if mael works on lurks, but either way mael takes 100 energy and you would still take more casualties than if you used storm).
It would only work if you know that they will go mutas. Otherwise 2/3 hydra or lurker contain would kill this DA build so much.
It is not so much about a "build" as it is utilizing just one DA for the specific task of neutralizing templar sniping mid game, just like those mutas themselves are built and then act as "1 unit" by stacking and are used for the specific task of sniping templar.
Only the initial two DT produced are used to merge and accumulate energy at a theoretically appropriate time in the game.
You really lose nothing with this as the Zergs nowadays already prepare for Dark Templar bisu raids, so you end up with having that 1 DA, aside from that you go zealot/templar/goon as normal, not even researching maelstrom until the mutas are hatching and as you are moving out really, much like when you are doing a timing push off of two factory with T vs P - you do not need siege mode right away.
On October 12 2009 06:15 Piste wrote:
I bet you wrote this after you saw yCh[z-zone] vs PuSan[S.G].
This is old idea and it's been used many years ago..
I haven't seen it yet, I will watch though. And I mentioned many times, this is "NOTHING NEW" but building a DA specificly for the timing of the mutas and for the purpose of anti-mid game muta sniping...that is relatively new.
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It would be too late to get the DA + Research so you will die to an early push if you plan on not getting storm. Even after storm I doubt this will work.
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I agree with Dark Archon usage. The Dark Archon can serve the same purpose as the sci vessel in tvz i.e. negating mass stacked mutas and feedback defilers.
BUT since most of the midgame of zerg consist of mostly hydras lings lurkers, dark archons have no use. So just as zerg stalls to late game and uses defilers to win the game, I can see protoss holding out to lategame before producing dark archons.
Dark archons for the midgame is just too resource demanding. So if you want dark archons to catch the muta group, then you'll have to delay something else. The question is what can protoss delay. What can the protoss do without? need ht for hydras, need obs for lurkers?
What if protoss changes the way they play. Delay their early/midgame army size and use those resources to get dark archons. Then when tech adv is set, make a lot of gateways and pump units. pumping units from 2 gate way then 4 then 6 uses resources on the way while just straight up building 8 gates and pumping uses resources when you decide to start pumping and will give you the about the same army size when you push.
But that will make p's early mid game weak and their lategame stronger. While the current build makes p's mid game strong but their late game weak. But zerg is playing defensive to the strong mid game and d'ing up like mad. So uh...take advantage?
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EPT
