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Hungary11300 Posts
About: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101508
On 13th of September, Liquipedia will holds its first public Strategy Q&A. The experts Artosis, Chill, Day[9], Idra, and Ver will be talking about Mech TvZ and be answering your questions. So:
What do you want to know about mech TvZ?
Questions may and should also refer to the example games included in the newspost, those are:
Flash vs. Effort on Destination, Korean WCG Qualifier
Near-perfect mech play on Destination
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
Skyhigh vs. Jaedong on Destination, SPL Ace Match
How to counter mech on Destination
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
Canata vs. Jaedong on Heartbreak Ridge, Avalon MSL
A Fake-mech variant w/ valks
+ Show Spoiler [VOD] +
- Please ask concise questions that can be answered within a resonable span of time but still don't lead to plain "yes/no".
- Questions can be addressed to specific members of the panel if you want
fire away!
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:D I see I'm first to find it clickable?
Well, when zerg plays versus a meching terran, it's very easy to get frustrated because of the 'cheesy' starts with the first barrack being able to be proxied... the factory also can be proxied and floated... and a fast Starport for wraiths is also an option, how does a good Zerg player keep the correct mindset; defending against the proxies and keep his plan in sight all the same time? Does Day get frustrated at times as well?
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Hungary11300 Posts
Yeah, I just updated it seconds ago 
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Sweet action
Against terran, what cues or mindset does zerg need to have about the late game, for example going hydra/muta versus heavy muta versus doom drop? How free should a zerg be with his ovie placement since there is some probability of terran going wraith or valk midgame?
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As in the Flash vs Effort game, how can you compete with the terran metal ball when they take the air. I feel like vultures and tanks allow the terran to absolutely smash whatever you have on the ground when they don't have to waste supply and resources on gol's
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To any of the panelists:
Lately on iccup when I realize I'm playing mech I skip the regular lair timing (while three hatching), upgrade and mass hydras for a while (probably until around 40-50 supply), and try to take another expansion before getting lair/muta tech, using slow overlords to clear mines along the way. I've been pretty successful with it (I'm C+/B-), but what I'd like to know is: if I was playing a better opponent, would my slow lair tech just get rolled, or is it also viable at higher levels? If it would fail at higher levels, what exactly would make it so vulnerable?
To Idra:
You've become notorious for talking about how certain foreigners play less than standard. What I'd like to know is, what is the most basic/standard build or strategy the Koreans use to counter mech builds?
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Jaedong used Dark Swarm against SkyHigh's mech army in the 2nd vod, which had me wonder,
What is the best way to use Swarm against Mech? How does it compare to using Swarm against Bio?
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There isn't a good example of this in the VODs but I'm wondering what the pannel thinks about opening mech to harass then switching back to mm for the first real push. I believe there was a recent Jaedong vs Fantasy game on Outsider that went like this. Anway, in the FakeSteve interview Artosis said he felt like going DTs PvT was BS because it offered the chance to fatally harass the Terran economy but even if it fails the Protoss isn't really behind. As a Zerg player, it seems like Terrans can do something similar vultures and then get to switch back to m&m (or stay mech and it's hard to scout which one sometimes) without really being behind or leaving themselves open to a strong counter. I would like to know the pannel's opinion on this... to me (and for the record I'm bad) it just feels like the Terran gets a few free shots to cripple me without any cost to him.
tldr: Is Terran at a disadvantage if he opens vultures, forces the Zerg to get a den, fails with harass and switches back to m&m (now against hydra/lurker most likely)? This seems like a free chance to kill Zerg to me.
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When should one transition to mnm if one is doing fake mech, and how should this happen(i.e. first add two rax, next academy, next port, next sci fac, or first academy one rax port rax scifac)?
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1. What kind of map features lend themselves to strong mech play vs the standard bio builds of the past? Can variations of mech be used on virtually any map or is it the current map trends that allow mech to thrive?
2. What are some of the most common variations of tvz mech and what are the strengths and weaknesses of each?
3. How does mech compare to bio in terms of early/mid/late game strength? Is one more powerful than the other at certain stages?
4. How much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?
If I think of more I'll edit them in
Thanks
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Questions from canata vs jaedong
Is it possible to ask questions about fake mech than actually mech?
1. In the game vs canata and jaedong do you think a 3-4 vult drop varient would have been possible instead of a wraith in that game? Would it have been better?
2. Also in that game canata's wraith scouted jaedong's slower spire yet still built a fast valk. Wouldnt it have been better if he built the valk later? Was this a mistake by canata?
3. Since canata built such a fast starpost because of the 8 rax opening would it be possible for canata instead of getting an armory and getting valks but to just rush to vessels and irradiate?
4. After watching this game is it possible to outline a rough build order for that game?
5. Would this build be viable on a map like say destination?
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I find some of my most challenging zvt games are when I can't read my opponent's build. One guy didn't build his refinery until right when my scouting drone died, and showcased a FE build (cc at nat, bunker). When I finally got to his base with mutalisks, he had a control group of goliaths and three or four factories pumping. Since I was still on two bases, I was not economically where I wanted to be vs mech.
As far as I can tell from my own games and Day[9]'s first podcast, the strategies against mech (mass hydras or mutas, lings) are pretty different from the best tools against mnm (lurkers, defilers, ultralisks). Furthermore, economically it seems the best time to expand against mech is much earlier than the best time to expand against bio.
During the midgame, when T is on two bases and info is limited (usually all I know is refinery timing, which isn't too helpful), what's the best way to prepare and/or scout? For example, are ling runbys cost effective?
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1. there are some maps that "force" terran to go mech. what kinds of features do those maps have that make a T go mech/cant go bio? also, what kinds of map favor mech over bio (easy 2nd gas?) [some maps it sucks to go mech for some reason]
2. do queens have any potential or use against mech? ensnare doesnt seem as effective and seems more difficult to pull off due to its slow animation time. but at the same time, it could help strengthen a flank by slowing down the already slow mech army
3. despite knowing ultras suck against mech, why did some players make ultras anyways? i dont remember the exact game, unfortunately (neo medusa where Z was at 3, i remember one game), but it seemed like they were about to give up anyways. did they give up? bad decision? or did they have some plan?
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Since there are different mech strategies vs Z, I want to ask which one is the best.
Which mech variation should be picked on some of the modern maps?
I'm a protoss player, yet I'm interested in this subject.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Incoming mass of questions...
How effective is placing an early engineering bay in the natural as shown in Flash vs. EffOrt? Does it lead to Terran being on the back foot faster because of generally faster Zerg tech as in 12 pool 11 gas -> 2 hatch (although EffOrt didn't opt for it)?
Is two hatch or three hatch play better off against Mech? If it's map dependent, on what characteristics?
In Flash vs. Effort, Flash was able to take air control with a ton of Science Vessels. Late game, the vessels became extremely powerful as even against a late game Hydralisk army, grouped Hydralisks would take massive amounts of damage from so many irradiates. How can Zerg deal with this?
In Flash vs. EffOrt, EffOrt repeatedly attacked into Flash's army with disasterous results. However, if he didn't attack, Flash was set to take the entirety of his side of the map. What should he have done instead?
Although there is a lot of talk about Plague and how it's extremely effective against Mech, it's actually rarely seen at the progamer level. Can it be used effectively at all? Explain please.
In Skyhigh vs. Jaedong, Jaedong reached Hive tech much faster than EffOrt, and crushed Skyhigh's mech army with defiler support. What should Skyhigh have done to counter? Did he merely overextend or what?
In Canata vs. Jaedong, Jaedong opted to rocket to Hive tech. Is this the best course of action against Canata's strategy? Did Jaedong not delay enough with his units?
To what extent should Mutalisks be used for harass? In both games, Mutalisks were mainly used as a way for Jaedong and EffOrt to stop vulture harassment around the map. Should either player have been more aggressive in their Mutalisk usage?
On Destination, it seems extremely easy for Terran to take a third gas by placing tanks above the ridge to the 5/11 base. How can Zerg counter?
None of the games featured drops. Howevever, most Mech maps including Neo Medusa and Destination are extremely well suited to drop play. What elements of Skyhigh and Flash's play made EffOrt and Jaedong not consider drop tech? Are drops late game only or can they be used midgame to great effect as well?
A while ago, Flash introduced his a build that focused on getting goliaths + maybe a valk + a large MnM + tank force that pushed out before Hive tech. How is Zerg supposed to counter?
In EffOrt vs. Flash, was Effort wrong to switch to melee units? Should he have stuck with Hydralisks as Jaedong did? Should melee units be used at all against Mech?
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can you afford a fact+port+Fe (or fact+Fe+port) build order in every situation? what with hydra rushes? How you don't risk to make useless valkyrie against hydras but at the same time you're prepared against mutas? And against a 2 hatchery lair into hydra rush what do you do with your starport?
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
Sometimes it is necessary to attack a mined up, seiged Terran mech army head on. What is the best way to do this?
Some questions to consider:
Would you send a swarm of lings to take tank shots and trip mines, followed by hydras?
Would you just send pure hydra/muta?
Would you send mutas or guardians?
Would you send the mutas in first to soften up the tank line, or would you send them along with the hydras in an effort to keep the goliaths from shooting the hydras?
etc...
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If I can, here we go:
1.What do you think about switching to greedy openings (as Z), when you can confirm mech build with your 9'th drone scout. (I.E.: 3 hatch before pool/4hatch before gas).
2.What do you think about various hydra + something unit combinations. Which one would you offer to use for certain situations depending on goll:tank ratio/ wraith, valks, vessels existence? (I.E.: Hydra/ling, Hydra/lurk, Hydra/muta, Hydra/Ling/Muta, Hydra/Ultra).
3.What do you think about 7th/8th drone scout with gas steal if you see him walling and have a really hard time dealing against mech?
4.Mass muta advantages/disadvantages, carapace or attack first? best opening considering he's going pure mech)?
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konadora
Singapore66224 Posts
Why do you think Zerg players react so badly to mech openings/builds?
Is it because they are unsure which build they are going (2 port wraiths, 2 fact, 1 fact 1 port, mech into mnm, pure mech, valkyrie into mech, vulture drop, etc) and hence spend a lot of money on defense and not mass-expand (which can be said to be one of the best counters to a mech build), or because they refuse to use Plague or something different/rarely used?
To simplify:
- Why don't Zergs simply mass expand when they see a mech build?
- Why don't Zergs use enough Plague, Spawn Broodlings and other spells?
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Simple question but still: What type of maps are mech good on compared to bio? In other words, what are the strengths and weaknesses of mech & bio? (in general and also with abusable map-specific features if applicable)
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hey idra why don't you use mech?
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This has been asked before in strategy forum but still has not received competent answers: how do you scout effectively with no comsat? You need to respond to the Z and it is hard to balance your army correctly. Don't just say "oh you opened 3 vultures run them around and see what they make"
Lurkers. Don't say Lurkers suck vs. mech cause they don't when there are back doors/Destination cliffs. How should we approach the game and especially the imminent tech switch, meaning we need to know it when it happens, and as said previously scouting is limited.
Taking the third base. We have seen a few games where the Terran turtles hardcore and wins 40+minute games, featuring Flash, Ruby, Mong also turtled well in his Masters Cup game but also some recent replays(Nada vs. Effort Blizzcon for example) show a very late third allowes the Zerg to overpower the little humans. So when do we expand?
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why is it that you don'y see hive tech as often with mech games, for the most part the game doesnt get out of lair tech.
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Can you actually turtle up using mech strat before moving out, or do you need to apply pressure with vultures early in order to make the strategy viable and not a complete gamble?
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This is a kind of general question that kind of relates to mech. Is there some sort of ideal drone saturation that a zerg should be going for if they are given the opportunity to expand unimpeded? Is that the reason why the zergs in the destination games stopped mass expanding at 3 gas bases or does the pressure from the terran moving out force them to immediately switch to unit production?
From the Destination games, I felt that zerg seems to have better map awareness by staying closer to the terran base, or at least more onto the terran's side of the map (across the middle bridges). Is this being too aggressive?
Also, is dropship play more risky in mech TvZ? Why do the terrans opt to do run-bys into the zerg main or other expansions rather than somewhat safely drop the vultures into the main or other undefended expansions? Is the mobility afforded to terran by dropships worth utilizing when meching vs zerg? Why or why not?
A dumb question: my friend told me that keeping your gas spent is more important than keeping minerals spent. Why is that not the case in most games I see involving progamers? More often than not, they will have invested more into mineral units than gas units and start accumulating large amounts of it (like 200 minerals to 700 gas).
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Who is the best mech TvZ progamer in the world? What has been the greatest pro-game featuring mech TvZ?
Let's say you open 1 factory vulture into command center, then get mines and tech to Goliaths/defend against muta. Under what circumstances is it wiser to get ion thrusters and harass before getting siege mode?
Because TvZ mech requires such a gas-heavy unit composition (similar to that of many TvTs,) is it ever wise to only upgrade vehicle weapons (as you would in TvT?) How do both weapon and armor upgrades factor into mech TvZ?
What are the notable upgrades to have (for example, +2 weapons in TvT kills tanks in two hits, +1 infantry armor keeps marines alive against lurkers for an extra hit etc.) in mech TvZ?
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in flash v effort, i noticed that flash had several mining bases (usually no less less than 1 base behind effort) up and running before effort attacked head on. Despite the fact that effort had half the map and remade his army quickly, flash was able to hold his ground and slowly creep his way to effort's half of the map.
in contrast, in skyhigh vs jaedong, jaedong had around the same number of bases than effort did in the other match, while skyhigh stayed on 2 base.
this leads me to ask, does the meching terran usually gain an advantage if hes able to get more than 2 mining bases?
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With the Flash vs Effort game in mind, what do you feel are the best ways to deal with a Terran who slowly pushes out, digging himself in. He basically has a whole line of well defended Tanks holding a bunch of expansions, and I don't know what is the most effective way to deal with this.. are crackling drops/harrass (ala ZvP) a good choice? And with Hive tech are Guardians a strong choice for dealing with an entrenched Terran?
Also, in this situation do I want to be constantly pressuring/attacking so he can't secure those bases, or just macro up, surround and kill the push like PvT generally plays out?
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On September 13 2009 01:32 Aaerian wrote:
With the Flash vs Effort game in mind, what do you feel are the best ways to deal with a Terran who slowly pushes out, digging himself in. He basically has a whole line of well defended Tanks holding a bunch of expansions, and I don't know what is the most effective way to deal with this.. are crackling drops/harrass (ala ZvP) a good choice? And with Hive tech are Guardians a strong choice for dealing with an entrenched Terran?
Also, in this situation do I want to be constantly pressuring/attacking so he can't secure those bases, or just macro up, surround and kill the push like PvT generally plays out?
Yeah I've had a lot of problems in my play when I'm playing a vessel-light SK force and he suddenly busts out with 12+ tanks in late game. It seems that the splash and marines just clean me out. I was wondering what the appropriate response would be upon noticing how few vessels there are.
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Do you think 2hatch or 3hatch is the better opening vs mech?
Why is it that progamers still get ultras vs mech even though they are so bad vs it?
If I opened 2hatch vs mech, is it ever a good idea to make my 3rd hatch in my main or nat, or should it always be an expo?
Is there any way to play vs mech that actually makes it fun?
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Please can you give some advice on factory to shop ratios and subsequently tank to goli ratios against different Z unit compositions?
Thank you.
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konadora
Singapore66224 Posts
How do you break a Terran going turtle mech with turrets, mines, vessels, tanks, goliaths and depot walls?
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SImple question. I am a newbie terran that want to decide the approach to the game. In this forum i read that bio is really hard and that I should try only mech at low level. Is it true?
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1.From what i know about this mu (almost nothing) i can say it is crucial to make the T build what you want. Is it worth to suicide several overlords to scout and see if its goin as expected? Non-Air scouting seems almost imposible in this mu. Suiciding mutas is quite expensive and they dont have the vision range ovs hav.
2.What do you think about a 2/3 hatch muta into a fast guardian?
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In the Canata vs Jaedong game on Heartbreak ridge, it looks that Canata was prompted to transition into bio by something Jae dong did...(I would assume it was from the mutalisk tech but Canata already had valkyries). During the Skyhigh vs Jae dong game, it looks like the zerg takes a more economically greedy approach and the terran continues with a pure mech build.
Are fake mech into bio builds normally planned from the start? Or are they adaptive based upon zerg strategy? If they are adaptive, what kind of indicators should a terran play look for?
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Will we see more Bio/Mech transition builds or Bio/Mech combo builds as Terrans strive for innovation in this age of stagnation?
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IdrA said mech is preferred for him on Heartbreak if they go for a more macro oriented build(I.E. 3hatch), but bio is better against a more aggressive build(2hatch, etc). How do you know whether or not to go mech in time based on this? Is the fact that you can't scout in time to place your gas just a downfall of the map?
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A few simple questions:
1. In its most basic form what are the Strengths and Weaknesses of Mech vs Bio?
2. If the Terran player focuses on early Goliath Mech, which would mean later/less Vessels (Detection), would this open up the possibility of using burrowed Zerglings at key desirable Siege Tank positions for ambushes?
3. How effective is Plague against Mech?
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8748 Posts
For IdrA and Artosis:
Is Protoss as a race more respectable by using 1r instead of 1a2a3a4a5a? On one hand, Protoss players are quite clever for using Arbiters in such a genius fashion. But on the other hand, the physical skill required is much less than the traditional 1a2a3a4a5a.
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idra why don't you ever open factory and switch to bio since people love to mass ling you, nowadays it seems fact openings are better than bio openings in many ways.
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In the first two video examples, I felt that the winner had some advantage based on the opponent's decision: Effort's mutas did little for him and Skyhigh made tanks very late even after seen the hydra den first build.
How is supposed to look an 'even' game between mech vs z? (about the time the terran starts to push).
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is it viable to keep geting zerg air upgrades as the game goes on. With the idea of going back to zerg air late game?
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This is for Day9 and chill about mech vs Z on destination
When the T eventually does the normal push toward the Z's wide ramp 3rd/min only, either on 2 or 3 base, where is the best place to engage the army? I've had trouble flanking with my hydras once the terran get their army in that bridge area right under the middle expo. So is it better to engage the terran earlier in the terran's half of the map to take advantage of the larger area to flank but with less units, or is it still better to wait until the last possible second to attack, even if it means engaging in a less than optimal area.
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Question 1
In 2 hatch play versus mech, at what point should you transition from 3hatch spire (3 base) into 5 hatch hydra?
Question 2
Going 12hatch 11pool, OR 12h 12p, OR 12h 13p (in a 2 hatch style) versus mech. What do you think are the positives and negatives knowing that T is going 11rax?
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is mech weaker on cross positions like it can be TvP?
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If you find this question more interesting:
How aggressive should Zerg be with Mutas (using 2 hatch play) against the different mech variations?
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Hungary11300 Posts
The session has ended by now. I hope most of your have had their points covered either as a question asked or as a sideline of discussion. We are aware that we might have still missed a fair bit, but that's how a live discussion can run.
cheers everyone!
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EPT
