EPT[Q] What exactly is a Bonjwa
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gk_ender
United States717 Posts
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
This thread should give you some idea... Basically, Bonjwa has to win a bunch of leagues within a short period of time (Happens to be 3 MSLs then OSL in the case of Nada, Oov, and Savior) and 'dominate' everyone for an extended duration. | ||
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gk_ender
United States717 Posts
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gk_ender
United States717 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
like... somebody who dominates so much, its not even fair there's no certain requirements or anything it's just a status thing when all other gamers realize that not one single person has a chance at beating this "bonjwa" Like, imagine Bisu, then take out the other 5 dragons, Jaedong, and Flash Bisu would be basically unstoppable then he'd be a bonjwa | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
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traced
1739 Posts
*sigh | ||
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gk_ender
United States717 Posts
im sry i wasn't around for savior, i caught the end of it, so i don't know a bonjwa when i see one. I can only look at stats and not the mental game. Bc i go back and look and july was #1 for awhile, and xellos was very close to oov and oov didnt take the top for awhile. So when do we call it bonjwa, bisu beat flash, bisu beat stork, does he have to beat jaedong to get it? And why is flash considered the closest (they say it in recent interviews) | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27157 Posts
Boxer, Iloveoov, NaDa, and Savior are three that I consider a bonjwa. edit - can you please stop posting 3 times in a row? Post your thoughts in one post, and wait for the response. | ||
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
Flash was the closest because at his peak his dominance was bonjwa level, but he could not keep it up for long enough to be considered a bonjwa. Bisu may be the best player right now but he is not unbeatable; he loses about as many games as the other current top players. This is reflective of the overall trend of greater parity among progamers, ironically brought about by Bisu unseating Savior as the last bonjwa. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
July for example cannot be considered as bonjwa despite his long term reign as the first placed player in the Kespa ranking and his three OSL titles because there are too many "flaws" for him to be a bonjwa. 1) He never did anything of note in the MSL even during his prime 2) His winning rate rapidly became mediocre after 2004, and his accomplishments during 2004 alone aren't enough 3) He consistently had trouble overcoming Nada Boxer is an exception because he reigned supreme at started at a time where MBCGame leagues hadn't even been created yet. Yet his accomplishments are no less spectacular than the other bonjwas. Bisu is currently on a winning streak. But remember how Flash was on a winning streak coming off his first OSL win? Yet he failed to win any of the tournaments he competed in afterwards. Before that, Jaedong actually managed to win back to back individual leagues and triumphed in the proleague, but failed to continue his domination (thanks, crappy maps) which makes his reign too short for him to be considered as a bonjwa despite his trophies and high winning percentage. Bisu is on a roll after his MSL victory. Hell, what with him actually doing well in the proleague for once, with the protoss in general doing well in all competitions, I think Bisu has a pretty good chance of making a serious claim as the next bonjwa in line. Don't think that one MSL victory (the other two were from completely different time frames so they don't into discussion when we're talking about his current performance) and a pretty winning streak afterwards is enough to get him there. If that was all it took, we'd be seeing a hell of a lot more bonjwas around. My two cents. | ||
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CapO
United States1615 Posts
when nada, iloveoov, and savior were bonjwas, no matter who they faced, we had absolute confidence that their games would be instant win. now a days, everyone is fucking good, as the progamers would say it all the time in their interviews and whatnot. EVERYONE IS SO DAMN GOOOOOD NOW. | ||
Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
The Bonjwa - Born in November - Wins 3 MSL in rapid succession, - Wins 1 OSL, and then loses form as the next Bonjwa comes along. (They may have a resurgence later and win another trophy, but its always over a year later, and its always another OSL, never another MSL) - Has a dominant record against the previous Bonjwa and beats them in any BO3/5 series, and often gains their throne by defeating the previous Bonjwa in a final by this definition, the only Bonjwas are Nada ---> Oov ---> sAviOr ---> should be Bisu, but Mind fucked it up. Notice that until the GOM TV MSL S3 where Bisu totally fucked up against Mind and ruined the story, he had followed the rules exactly (Born in November, beat sAviOr in a final to take his throne immediately after sAviOr's first OSL, and has a dominant record against sAviOr) | ||
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rredtooth
5461 Posts
On January 09 2009 12:25 Manifesto7 wrote: A Bonjwa is a player that dominates an era. In addition, it is someone that affects the way the game evolves. It is much harder to find one now because players play 10x more games than they used to. There are plenty more chances to lose, and to be examined. Boxer, Iloveoov, NaDa, and Savior are three that I consider a bonjwa. edit - can you please stop posting 3 times in a row? Post your thoughts in one post, and wait for the response. =D Monitoring the TL forums must be tiring yes? | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On January 09 2009 12:45 Atrioc wrote: I agree with Manifesto's definiton as something realistic, but I also like the more "mystical" one that highlights all the weird connections between the three Bonjwas. The Bonjwa - Born in November - Wins 3 MSL in rapid succession, - Wins 1 OSL, and then loses form as the next Bonjwa comes along. (They may have a resurgence later and win another trophy, but its always over a year later, and its always another OSL, never another MSL) - Has a dominant record against the previous Bonjwa and beats them in any BO3/5 series, and often gains their throne by defeating the previous Bonjwa in a final by this definition, the only Bonjwas are Nada ---> Oov ---> sAviOr ---> should be Bisu, but Mind fucked it up. Notice that until the GOM TV MSL S3 where Bisu totally fucked up against Mind and ruined the story, he had followed the rules exactly (Born in November, beat sAviOr in a final to take his throne immediately after sAviOr's first OSL, and has a dominant record against sAviOr) I think if Bisu wins anothe MSL and an OSL, he can make amends for his c-c-c-combo breaker vs Mind. I don't want to wait another 3 MSL seasons (at least) to crown a new bonjwa. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
All the other bonjwas only really started dominating in their third MSL through to the end of the next OSL (by that i mean being noticed by everyone). It's like, MSL1 "Oh shit its this cool newcomer guy" MSL2 its like "Oh cool this guy is pretty good yea?" and by MSL3 "holy shit this guy has force" and just rapes every living thing. Bisu is in bonjwa mode atm and he will win this OSL | ||
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Manifesto7
Osaka27157 Posts
On January 09 2009 12:48 redtooth wrote: =D Monitoring the TL forums must be tiring yes? :p I actually wrote that sentence without Boxer, but then changed my mind. He wasn't quite as dominant in terms of titles but had some of the strongest influence on the development of the game/esports. | ||
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Manifesto7
Osaka27157 Posts
On January 09 2009 13:05 Plexa wrote: If Bisu takes this OSL imo he'll be bonjwa status All the other bonjwas only really started dominating in their third MSL through to the end of the next OSL (by that i mean being noticed by everyone). It's like, MSL1 "Oh shit its this cool newcomer guy" MSL2 its like "Oh cool this guy is pretty good yea?" and by MSL3 "holy shit this guy has force" and just rapes every living thing. Bisu is in bonjwa mode atm and he will win this OSL I disagree with you. While Bisu winning would make him the number one player on the scene (if he isn't already) the rest of the competition is too close to him. Can you honestly say that Bisu is far ahead of Stork, Jaedong, or Flash? I give those three even odds to win the MSL. I honestly believe there are too many games and too many leagues to be a banjwa in the classic sense. It would take someone winning 5-6 leagues in a year for me to feel that. (I'm including GOM and proleague here). | ||
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deathgod6
United States5064 Posts
Bisu is in top condition, but if he is worthy of the bonjwa status, then how about Stork or Jaedong? They have both played consistent, dominated at their peaks, and .have been on the scene for a while. As much as I like SKT and Bisu, I think the classic title of bonjwa isn't ready to be handed down to a new player any time soon. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On January 09 2009 11:58 Jyvblamo wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=61602 This thread should give you some idea... Basically, Bonjwa has to win a bunch of leagues within a short period of time (Happens to be 3 MSLs then OSL in the case of Nada, Oov, and Savior) and 'dominate' everyone for an extended duration. you dont have to follow any specific patterns its the fans decision, but there are very very few bonjwa, and you have to be very dominant. Case in point: reach, july, nal_ra, xellos, garimto, flash, bisu, jaedong are all not bonjwa bonjwa is a very special term when someone is so dominant they are not just untouchable, but other players panic just being in the same booth Boxer, Iloveoov, NaDa, and Savior are three that I consider a bonjwa. these are the 4 bonjwa as dictated by the community. They are the only 4. As for bisu, even if he won a starleague I dont think he should seriously be considered for bonjwa. Its not just titles, there has to be a quite substantial period where he is so dominant its almost undescribable. In order for bisu to become bonjwa he would have to make all his games seem unfair and make it look like no one, even his closest rival, has any chance in hell. if you look under savior's reign vs his closest rivals and the expectations of both the players and the fans: savior vs oov: not even close savior vs midas: not even close savior vs hwasin: not even close savior vs nal_ra: not even close all of those players could be considered rivals, and all of them even occasionally won. But none of those matchups would be as close in terms of expectations, as say bisu vs stork, bisu vs jaedong, bisu vs flash that is why bisu is not bonjwa. He came close, but he would really have to take off to have that chance again | ||
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Hancell
Korea (South)24 Posts
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
There is no fun watching 1 player dominate, then see that 1 player fall off the face of the earth. Where is the fun of watching 1 player take it all? No, times have changed and this is the era of 2 strong rivalries instead of 1 dominant man. And honestly, how can seeing 1 guy win everything be fun when we have groups like LeeSsang and Taekbang? Flash, Jaedong, Stork and Bisu are the 4 biggest things in progaming right now, and I honestly wish we kept it this way. And I agree with that  , LeeSsang and Taekbang is more fun than 'omg bonjwaaaa' | ||
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 09 2009 14:40 chameleonia wrote: Do we get to call Bisu Bonjwa if sweeps this GOM, MSL and OSL? if he didn't pit JD and Flash together in a death group and stuck himself with 3 zergs, I would've agreed to this. | ||
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MoRe_mInErAls
Canada1210 Posts
On January 09 2009 14:13 Hancell wrote: Remember that the bonjwa concept is not a strict rule, but just a fan work. Savior was the first progamer called bonjwa. Fans later built the general concept and conditions of bonjwa, "who was so dominant like savior in the past?" I concur. Boxer was the first bonjwa, but sAviOr is the original bonjwa | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On January 09 2009 14:40 chameleonia wrote: Do we get to call Bisu Bonjwa if sweeps this GOM, MSL and OSL? if he looks untouchable while doing that and untouchable in PL as well I think he should be considered. Ultimately its generally the korean community who determines bonjwa though | ||
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Breavman
Sweden598 Posts
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
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Baddieko
Singapore855 Posts
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
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ambit!ous1
United States3662 Posts
" i dont really care if i dont become bonjwa, i just want to be remembered as just a player that played SC really well " This is why i <3 Bisu and personally it would be nice to see 1st Protoss to become bonjwa but i think Bisu has done enough already for any Protoss. win or lose just play hard Bisu | ||
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iPF[Div]
Spain572 Posts
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darkemperor
Turkey725 Posts
On January 09 2009 15:07 chameleonia wrote: Bisu has a 82.5% win percentage for his last 40 games... This. | ||
disciple
9070 Posts
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selboN
United States2523 Posts
On January 09 2009 13:05 Plexa wrote: If Bisu takes this OSL imo he'll be bonjwa status All the other bonjwas only really started dominating in their third MSL through to the end of the next OSL (by that i mean being noticed by everyone). It's like, MSL1 "Oh shit its this cool newcomer guy" MSL2 its like "Oh cool this guy is pretty good yea?" and by MSL3 "holy shit this guy has force" and just rapes every living thing. Bisu is in bonjwa mode atm and he will win this OSL Keeping my fingers crossed, tightly. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
On January 09 2009 15:07 chameleonia wrote: Bisu has a 82.5% win percentage for his last 40 games... Oh My God.... That is unfair. Now I'm going to go watch flash vs bisu on gomtv. | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
edit: But I have to admit, Bisu does come the closest at the moment. | ||
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disciple
9070 Posts
 bisu's screw up against mind is not that important because he managed to bounce back | ||
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stambe
Bulgaria492 Posts
And won 3 of them ? | ||
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Manifesto7
Osaka27157 Posts
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
The fact that the overall quality of pro players is much higher now makes Bisu's incredible record more impressive, not less. It's true that Bisu doesnt totally rape people like the (other?old?older?) bonjwas, but when you look at the new era of protoss dominance, especially the way they play against zergs, you can hardly argue that Bisu didn't launch the game to a higher level. Sure Bisu loses to flash more often than he wins, but even MJY "the original bonjwa" looked mortal against Hwasin Midas and Chojja during his reign (not to mention FBH and a certain 3x MSL champion protoss after). Now I'm not saying we should be calling Bisu a bonjwa just yet. In fact, I honestly really dont like bisu that much (I like reach, best, kang min, and horang2 much more), but what I am saying is that with the super high level of play today (which in my mind arrived with the fall of savior at the super fast hands of bisu) wins and titles count more than ever and we wouldnt be wrong to start thinking a little differently about what exactly "dominance" is and what exactly a "rape" looks like. With this in mind, if KTYcontinues to play this well across mu's, and has the right kind of showing in in this coming MSL, OSL, and Gom Classic, he will deserve to be called "bonjwa". | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Nada 2nd KPGA: 2002-06-22, 1st place 3rd KPGA: 2002-10-05, 1st place SKY OSL: 2002-10-12, did not participate (overlapping schedules) 4th KPGA: 2003-01-18, 1st place Panasonic OSL: 2003-2-14, 1st place Nada managed to win 4 out of the 5 leagues within a stretch of roughly 6 months. Oov Trigem MSL: 2003-11-30, 1st place NHL OSL: 2004-03-21, did not qualify CEN Game MSL: 2004-04-18, 1st place Gillette OSL: 2004-07-31, 3rd place SPRIS MSL: 2004-08-29, 1st place Ever OSL: 2004-11-20, 1st place Oov managed to win 4 out of the 6 leagues that took place within a time frame of roughly a year. Savior Uzoo MSL: 2005-08-06, 1st place So1 OSL: 2005-11-05, did not qualify CYON MSL: 2006-01-14, 2nd place Shinhan OSL: 2006-03-04, did not qualify Shinhan S1 OSL: 2006-06-23, did not qualify Pringles S1 MSL: 2006-07-16, 1st place Pringles S2 MSL: 2006-11-11, 1st place Shinhan S2 OSL: 2006-11-18, did not qualify Shinhan S3 OSL: 2007-02-24, 1st place You can take either Savior taking 4 out of the 9 leagues that took place over the course of about a year and a half, or you can take (like I would) him taking 3 out of the 4 leagues that happened over the space of about 6 months. For comparison's sake, here's Nal Ra, July, Bisu and Jaedong. Nal Ra Stout MSL: 2003-07-19, 1st place MyCube OSL: 2003-11-09, 2nd place Trigem MSL: 2003-11-30, out in the 2nd round of loser's bracket NHN OSL: 2004-03-21, 1st place Nal Ra takes 2 out of the 4 leagues that took place within the time frame of about 6 months July Gillette OSL: 2004-07-31, 1st place SPRIS MSL: 2004-08-29, out in the 3rd round of the loser's bracket Ever OSL: 2004-11-20, out in the round of 8 YATGK MSL: 2005-02-06, out in the 3rd round of the loser's bracket IOPS OSL: 2005-03-05, 2nd place Ever OSL: 2005-07-05, 1st place July takes 2 out of the 6 leagues that took place within the time frame of about a year Bisu GomTV S1 MSL: 2007-03-03, 1st place GomTV S2 MSL: 2007-07-14, 1st place Daum OSL: 2007-07-21, out in the round of 8 GomTV S3: 2007-11-17, 2nd place Ever OSL: 2007-12-22, 3rd place GomTV S4 MSL: 2008-03-08, out in the round of 36 Bacchus OSL: 2008-03-15, out in the round of 4 Ever OSL: 2008-07-12, out in the round of 16 Arena MSL: 2008-07-26, out in the round of 36 Incruit OSL: 2008-11-01, out in the round of 8 Clubday MSL: 2008-11-22, 1st place Bisu takes 3 out of 11 competitions within a space of about a year and a half. Jaedong Ever OSL: 2007-12-22, 1st place GomTV S4 MSL: 2008-03-08, 1st place Bacchus OSL: 2008-03-15, out in the round of 8 Ever OSL: 2008-07-12, out in the round of 36 Arena MSL: 2008-07-26, 2nd place Jaedong takes 2 out of 5 competitions within a space of about 6 months. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
As far as I'm concerned, Bisu is on a similar level with Nal Ra, July and Jaedong. | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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fearus
China2164 Posts
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selboN
United States2523 Posts
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iPF[Div]
Spain572 Posts
ermm ya... so that bisu guy... | ||
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
And... Bisu is knocked out of OSL. So much for that.  | ||
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disciple
9070 Posts
nvm, thanks | ||
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
On January 09 2009 21:27 disciple wrote: for god sake put this in spoiler nvm, thanks yeah, realized that immediately. my bad. | ||
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monstar123
United States516 Posts
No bonjwa toss , bisu is eliminated from OSL. TT | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
Of course arguments given above apply as well. | ||
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
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tenacity
1587 Posts
if flash wins both the OSL and the MSL is he officially called a bonjwa? i mean, without the doubt he is by far the best player atm and has been for the last year. imo, only jaedong could beat him in the msl finals. | ||
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yB.TeH
Germany414 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Wings
United States999 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7953 Posts
On January 09 2009 11:55 gk_ender wrote: Everywhere you go you here the whispers, bonjwa, could he be the next, he's closest to qualify, ect. Ive looked it up and i've found generic terms basicall meaning dominant player. But what makes a player not just number one on kespa, but join the rank of bonjwa, which, correct me if im wrong, were boxer, nada, oov, savior and bisu (i think im not sure ab the last one). They keep saying flash is the closest to getting it, but i still just don't understand what these requirements are. Plz can some one fill me in, you tl guys are really good with sc history. Who gives a damn? Call him however you want. | ||
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