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On January 06 2009 10:21 traced wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 09:09 thedeadhaji wrote:
I actually like OP's reasoning more than straight up stats. There would ideally be some sort of weighting and fixing based on the lineup of each team because not all teams are deep in each race, but it's really not a bad basis for judging which map was perceived by the proteams as having the most racial partiality. Yeah it's useful reasoning, but it has flaws, just like anything else: 1. Seasonal map synthesis. If the map pool collectively favors any one race at any point, it will likely not reflect the entirety of the skew. This is in part due to team lineups (ie if a team has a strong zerg, and there are no strong zerg maps, they will still likely send him out frequently because they do not have a better option - so even if a map disadvantages him by 10%, he may be 10% better than any other option), and because of the recent season's lineup requirements, which both limit the # of repeated races per match, and requires a minimum number per match (this definitely reduces racial variance). However, if the map pool was essentially balanced, then neither of these factors would matter, and the racial spread would be a true distribution of racial utility at the proleague level. I'm positive "sniping" would not be a skew, because the % of snipes would probably be equal to the true racial balance, in a large enough sample. 2. Imperfect map strategy. Map balance changes over the course of a season, either through new strategies and paradigms in the metagame, or just in the map. 3: Small sample size One of the most important things to remember in statistics. Most people say raw statistics are useless, but it's just an incorrect statement. It's more accurate to say, "statistics only contain so much useful information," and sample size largely determines how useful the information is. I don't think there's ever been a sabermetric Starcraft study, but I'd assume you'd need at least 20 games to get a usable sample.
I actually think this is the most accurate way of talking about balance issues because starcraft isnt perfectly balanced itself and the only existing sample that can be relevant to profesional starcraft is proleague (because individual leagues are too short/variated).
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heh, i wanna see a pvp on raid assault 2.
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Oh of course it's useful, but my point is it's not the whole story because it has some flaws, so it needs to be used in conjunction with map records, strategy analysis, etc.
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Proleague's Most Balanced Maps of All Time
1. Destination
2. Tau Cross
3. Medusa
4. 815 III
5. Sin Peaks of Baekdu
6. Blue Storm
Proleague's Most Broken Maps of All Time
1. Raid Assault 2
2. Geometry
3. Wuthering Heights
4. Othello
5. Harmony
6. Rush Hour 3
Medusa, 815 and peaks are not balanced lol
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On January 06 2009 09:36 geno wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 08:37 baubo wrote:On January 06 2009 06:25 errol1001 wrote:
In the proleague this season, coaches sent out 31% protoss, 34% zerg, and 35% terran. Suffice to say, it's not a matter of teams lacking a certain race. Interesting that everyone is screaming protoss imbalance, when it's actually the least used race in the proleagues.
Now I'm not saying the way the op used the stats is unbiased, but I currently find no reason why it's not legit. Everyone has their own opinions, but at least on the pro level, this method of judging map balance seems fairly good. At least better than "Oh protoss imba because PvZ is 6-2!"
You completely missed the point. The coaches send out various players/races on the maps because they obviously want to win. The OP takes this to make a list of balanced and unbalanced maps. The point is that these choices are not made in a vacuum, rather they are heavily influenced by OTHER factors. Other people have pointed out problems too. This doesn't mean the stats aren't interesting. They are. They're not a direct representation of map balance though. Are you just randomly guessing? Or can you point out what these factors would be and how this would affect maps? check my post at the top of the page, the second paragraph. Some teams have a different set of players to work with. KTF has Flash as their best terran and maybe Tempest or Stats? as their best protoss; they are probably going to prefer to send out Flash even if P has a slight advantage on the map, because Flash's matchup advantage far exceeds the map's racial advantage. Thats just one example, but there are a lot of teams that have similar dilemmas (see SKT with Best/Bisu > s2/Thezerg, and Lecaf with Jaedong > Backho). This most affects maps I think when it comes to ace match: if the other team sends out their no-name protoss because of the maps balance, KTF will laugh and send out Flash who will wreck him. For this reason, both teams usually end up sending out their best players regardless of race, or players who have prepared a specific build rather than blindly picking their best player from a specific race.
Yeah, no shit, except you missed the point about map stats from ALL proleague teams, and not just one team.
There are 12 teams in the proleague.
Protoss-favored teams: Khan, T1, Ace, STX(1/2 Kal), MBC(1/2 Pusan), Stars(1/2 Free) Roughly 3 1/2 teams.
Terran-favored teams: KTF, OGN, Estro, Wemade, MBC(1/2 Sea/Light), Roughly 4 1/2 teams
Zerg-favored teams: Lecaf, CJ, Stars(1/2 Zero), STX(1/2 July/Calm), Roughly 3 teams.
Just a rough estimate, but pretty much shows there's is no racial imbalance when you take into account THE WHOLE LEAGUE. Don't just use one team because no one's talking about one team. We're talking about ALL TEAMS.
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Ok I'm going to make this really simple.
This:
The point is that these choices are not made in a vacuum, rather they are heavily influenced by OTHER factors.
is what you were originally contesting. And this:
KTF has Flash as their best terran and maybe Tempest or Stats? as their best protoss; they are probably going to prefer to send out Flash even if P has a slight advantage on the map
is direct evidence that the above statement is true, and the proof you were looking for. All you need is one example to prove that the coaches decisions aren't made in a vacuum, and I gave you one. Funny enough, you yourself just proved that this is more or less the case for ALL the teams too, lol.
I'm not trying to argue that in the aggregate there is a huge race imbalance. (Although the 12% deficit for zerg you mentioned is far from the perfect balance you claim.) I'm just pointing out that its quite true that deciding who plays a specific map is about a lot more than "What race is best for this map?" Thus the players the coaches send out on specific maps may very often not be the best race for the map.
This method will certainly spot maps that the are quite obviously favoring of a specific race (Raid Assault2, Geometry, even Othello and Harmony - pretty much anything you see entirely too many of a specific mirror match on). But I think its most precise when a majority (over 50%) of the games played on the map involve one of the races. When there is at best a plurality, you are better off looking at the matchup statistics to decide how balanced the maps are in the proscene.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
Whenever I see Destination
It reminds me of Nostalgia
Even the balances remind me of it.
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the thing is, if theres a map thats heavily Z>P, P>T, T>Z, then it might very well show up with equal amounts of each race playing on it, although its probably not very balanced at all. probably the matchup %s give a better idea of balance for a map.
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You have to consider that sometimes teams ace snipe and stuff. And although KTF is a terran team they only have one (Lecaf is a zerg team but only has one zerg, ya know?) So they can't always send their best player out according to map balance.
What would be worth arguing is which team is the most balanced - aka who has the best "average skill" of their best Terran, Protoss, and Zerg. It's tempting to say CJ, but Effor/Savior, Much and Iris are playing so weak right now.
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*Bump*
There. Okay, I've finally seen enough Medusa to acknowledge it can't make the list. The new method makes the most sense. These maps are all great. <3
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EPT
