That is true for the smurfing, but they have always been lesser known players, players that no one really cared about. There was a Russian who was caught (and admitted to) hacking, Deadman, like I originally said, who was really shunned for a while but has for many years since been a respected member of the community, only recently (1-2 weeks ago) quitting due to school reasons.

Other than that, there has been no GOOD player discovered being a hacker who was well known... and I've been following the War3 scene since it's conception so I'm simply very confused as to where this statement came from... Not that I really care... I was just confused... And would like some clarification.

Fei and Abandonallhope were caught hacking and got their asses crucified, in like the first year of W3. I remember because I did an interview with Fei, who was at the time like 95-1 on the sololadder, for a wc3 site of which I can't recall the name, and it never got placed because he got caught cheating.

brambolius

Netherlands448 Posts

November 02 2007 14:37 GMT

#43

nice read

Xeris

Iran17695 Posts

November 02 2007 18:06 GMT

#44

The fact that NONE of the top players are doing it is testament enough to the gravity of cheating in WC3. They know theyre life in that game is over if they do it and get caught.

In BW we have guys like Oldy who blatantly hacked but people still chivalrously defend him. So what if he "only hacked on iccup" hacking in one game brings into question every other game, and yet he's still allowed (until recently) to play in tournaments and leagues, and is still in his team.

Same goes with MistrZZZ and his hack accusations, and just about every other hacker / cheater that can be mentioned.

Loophole

United States867 Posts

November 02 2007 18:36 GMT

#45

"Gamers like Testie are in the business of challenging themselves to the max. Starcraft is that challenge."

I like Testie, but this is probably a poor example of a gamer who likes to challenge himself "to the max", considering he is the most infamous hacker in the history of Starcraft.

Sadist

United States7244 Posts

November 02 2007 18:42 GMT

#46

banning people for smurfing is pretty lame imo.

edit:

also banning people from live tournaments for hacking would be retarded, if they cheated during the tournament fine you can ban them, but it would be like "cheating in practice" and getting a penalty in a game.

Online tourneys You could make a case for though, banning them from future online tourneys would suffice imo, but you should never be able to ban them from LANs.

SoleSteeler

Canada5439 Posts

November 02 2007 20:54 GMT

#47

People get banned in smurfing when they do it in an important league like WC3L or NGL. Usually only happens in the qualifications for those leagues though, rarely (if ever) the top players.

Was Gentho ever caught map hacking? No offense to him, but he never amounted to much, so I wouldn't call it a big deal... I remember him being pretty good when he was in a-L (Advanced Losers) but that's it. Fei/Abandonallhope, yeah, also just ladder players, they were never big into the leagues and tournaments and all that... There were lots of players who got caught map hacking that were 'top' ladder players, yes... But my point is pretty much none at the highest level, except Deadman which I've talked about.

Artosis

United States2140 Posts

November 02 2007 21:22 GMT

#48

gentho won wcg usa the first year for war3. at one point in time he was the best undead and was invited to 4K but quit for his studies.

Stegosaur

Netherlands1231 Posts

November 02 2007 23:28 GMT

#49

On November 03 2007 05:54 SoleSteeler wrote:
People get banned in smurfing when they do it in an important league like WC3L or NGL. Usually only happens in the qualifications for those leagues though, rarely (if ever) the top players.

Was Gentho ever caught map hacking? No offense to him, but he never amounted to much, so I wouldn't call it a big deal... I remember him being pretty good when he was in a-L (Advanced Losers) but that's it. Fei/Abandonallhope, yeah, also just ladder players, they were never big into the leagues and tournaments and all that... There were lots of players who got caught map hacking that were 'top' ladder players, yes... But my point is pretty much none at the highest level, except Deadman which I've talked about.

I believe Fei was rank 1 solo for quite some time, and fei/abandon's 2v2 team was #1 for ages. Back in these days the ladder actually mattered and the people in the top were actually the best players

Anyway it's not like I really care since like you said they didn't really make an impact, but disregarding those players because they were 'just ladderplayers' is kind of meh since it was all that mattered at that time -_- That, and getting top replay on replayers.net =(

SoleSteeler

Canada5439 Posts

November 03 2007 00:52 GMT

#50

I suppose you're right then. I was just thinking there would be a more contemporary example. I still feel it's not a very accurate thing to say about War3 :/

Orlandu

China2450 Posts

November 03 2007 06:08 GMT

#51

I think that they're right about cheating in WarCraft 3, to some extent. It is taken really seriously most of the time, but I don't think it can be intelligently argued that it's a bad thing. WC3L strives for professionalism, and thus it's important for them to maintain high standards and moral practices for both the admins and the players involved. Especially considering there's a lot of money involved.

The two communities really differ in so many ways, so it's really tough to draw any direct comparisons between the two. In StarCraft, you don't have these constant tournaments and leagues popping up for people outside of Korea. You don't have lots of trips to be made and money to be won for foreigners all that often. In WarCraft 3 you do, and there's a lot more money out there for the average player. And so it becomes a lot more important to try to stop cheating.

Most of the known cheating though goes on in the lower level or amateur communties, such as the situations with players like Eggman and OC, just to name a few from the not-so-recent past (although OC is still around, he's considered clean now). Off the top of my head, the only top players you could really say were involved with publicized cheating were Deadman many years ago, and Caravaggio during the whole Eggman era. Most top players really can't afford to be involved with that stuff, as the WC3L is always prepared and most of the top players are constantly battling it out in different countries for live tournaments.

The Russian Human Skew is referring to is of course Caravaggio, and there was a good reason for why he was so heavily punished. Just so the story is clear, what happened with Caravaggio was that he played for fnatic in the WC3L and other leagues. However, according to his story, he was approached by the mysterious Eggman and asked to level accounts and play for him for money. He ended up having an account on the Azeroth ladder called Digler. Digler was eventually recruited by KoD, who today is known as Team Delta (formerly TeK-9 and aG (of which was the merger between rS/KoD and LinK)) and masqueraded as an American Human player. When KoD fought u5 (now a part of mTw) in the old WPL, Digler went up against Nilknarf, who was considered the best American Human at the time, and still is although he just recently announced his retirement. When Digler swiftly defeated Nilknarf 2-0, suspicions began to rise about who this mysterious new Human player was. IP's were checked and replay analysis was done, in which it was found that the player hailed from Russia, and was actually the well-known Caravaggio. When approached, he admitted to being Digler and gave his story about how he was approached by Eggman and paid to do what he did.

Now, the problem lies in the fact that not only did he lie to both of his teams, fnatic and KoD, but he violated clear rules of the WC3L. He violated his agreement to represent the team contracting him and only that team. Why is this a big deal? Well let's think about it in terms of StarCraft, to make it easier for you guys to understand... Remember WDT over 4 years ago? I sure do. Remember how up in arms everyone here was about ilnp and his supposed cheating by having a Korean progamer play for him? I sure do. ilnp and Caravaggio deceived those around them; that is, they gave off the impression that they were somebody else, giving them an unfair advantage against their opponents (although in the case of ilnp this is much less true, as really the Korean progamer probably didn't give a shit who he was playing). What if let's say, you guys actually had a WC3L for StarCraft with money to be won. What if say, Testie paid one of his Korean progamer friends to play for him in every one of his matches. How about Savior, or Bisu let's say. Would you consider that not a big deal? Probably not. You'd probably be pretty pissed, and feel as if it was unfair that someone from another team was being allowed to play for this team. The Korean progamer's team would probably also be pissed that he was spending time messing around with stuff like that when he should be focusing on their team and their competitions.

What if let's say someone paid Lebron James to "smurf" and come play for him in a high school basketball game. Would that not be a big deal? Granted everyone knows who Lebron James is and would recognize him, let's give him the same advantage that online players have and let's disguise him a bit so people wouldn't recognize him. Instead of making a new ID to conceal his identity, he'll put on some make-up and conceal his identity.

The point is, it's not simply "smurfing" that's frowned upon. It has to do mainly with professionalism but also preventing people from gaining unfair advantages. Why should MYM]Moon be allowed to be on the roster of every WC3L team? In the same sense, why should Caravaggio be allowed to represent two different teams, especially one in which he's pretending to be someone else? In terms of StarCraft, would it be fair for Testie to start smurfing and playing for other teams in addition to MYM? You could make arguments for why it might be ok, but when you really break it down, would you actually want stuff like that to be allowed? Not just in StarCraft, but in any kind of sports, like the NBA or NFL?

The strict rules serve a good purpose. It keeps people honest, which ultimately allows for greater entertainment for the fans and a higher level of professionalism for the industry. Allowing shady activities to take place will only bring about bad things, and bring about arguments of where exactly should the line be drawn. Again, smurfing isn't the issue. Double-tagging, or representing two or more teams when you've agreed to represent only the team that's contracting you, is.

Cheating is taken seriously in WarCraft 3, and that's a good thing. Fortunately nowadays most of the top players aren't involved, at least that we know about.