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Germany1302 Posts
I bought me a G15 some days ago and installed some nice Addons, like my Instant Messanger Messages shown in the display (and the option to reply there without switching to windows), see who is speaking on TS or the build-in Pizzatimerm (aka Countdown & Stopwatch).
But since it's a gamingkeyboard I wanted to use it for Starcraft. So experimented with the Macrotool for the G-Buttons on the left. I made a Macro that sets all the rallypoints of my factories to my current cursor position and some other macros that produce tanks and vultures or just vultures. When I tried it in the first game I thought "this must be cheating". Since you have 18 keys which you can each use 3 times, you could assign macros for each matchup and time of the game.
So I just wanted to know, what do you think, is this cheating? What other macros would be helpful?
Another thing I found was a "lyrics" addon for Winamp, that basically shows a Line of text on a given time. Now, what does this mean? This means, you could create a textfile with times and messages that teaches you a buildorder (just that it could not care for your minerals and workercount, just time) or warn you of specific events (like "fast dark templars could arrive soon" or "possible mutalisks in 30 seconds").
You could provice the basic features of BWcoach just that it focuses on time only and could not tell you to spend your minerals or so. But I got a *basic* solution for this too. I told you the Keyb has a Countdown function and I figured that you could set it to "repeat" and make i play a sound when its finished. So it could "beep" every 20 seconds to remind you to produce.
This is all very work-aroundish but I liked it alot, since I have big Problems with my lategame macro.
Anyone else using his G15 for Starcraft?
Chosi
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Good question. I've had mine for a while now, but I don't use it for SC since I think it's immoral.
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Im also in possesion of one but ive never tried anything like you've mentioned so I have no idea of its capabilities. This would be really awesome if it could work tho
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Germany1302 Posts
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I set mine up so I could macro with it and use it for all sorts of things. After one game I felt so bad because it meant I could macro like a pro without any actual work, I deleted them all.
SO yeah, you can use it for SC, and with a bit of tweaking it is much too effective. It takes away from a lot of the challenge of the game too.
I love the keyboard in general though, excellent choice!
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I had a key for 1a2a3a4a5a, but I wouldn't use it because I couldn't get used to it. Also macro won't help since I'm protoss and rallying/building off 4-5 gates doesn't really help past the 10 minute mark. I can't assign more gateways because I don't have enough hotkeys. So basicly it doesn't help that much.
Even with terran, you need to have 3-4-5-6-7-8 on facts if you're using 2 for army and 2 for scanner. So it helps in tvp, tvt, less in tvz. Overall it's not that much of a macro advantage as you make it out to be. "taking away from the challange"? "felt so bad", "macro like a pro"? Please. Just because you can one-key build off 6 buildings doesn't mean you macro like a pro. And other than that it really doesn't help with much. Other games, like dota, wow, cs, yeah, it does help much, but even with the macros your overall gameplay level won't go up more than 2-4%
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Myeh. I did a lot of work getting the macros right, and the G15 macros can be a lot more powerful than you're making out if you have them set up just right. 4sz5sz6sz7sm8sm9sm0sm macros aren't really what I was doing. And alright, "macro like a pro" was an exaggeration, but it was a improvement.
Are you aware that you can include instant mouse moves, clicks, shift clicks, F keys, any length of key combinations, etc. in those macros? You can do a LOT more than you're making out if you put your mind to it.
It doesn't make a huge difference if you're already quick, but it does make a difference. And any "advantage" that you haven't really earned (I don't really think spending the time tweaking macros to work perfectly is earning it) is unfair. Or do you disagree?
EDIT: As for taking away from the challenge... being able to press one button and have it perform intricate key combinations at super human speeds is surely taking away from the challenge to some degree? Maybe we see things differently, and it's definatly a case of the more skilled the player is, the less of a difference it'd make, eventually coming to a point where it may become almost a disadvantage, but still.
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Omg I really want one of these keyboards now. I could definitely use the text reminders, because I always forget stuff, especially when I'm under pressure. My memory sucks -_-;
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Well, trust me, I spent a lot of time with the macro keys. At least in the first two weeks after I got the keyboard. Yes I'm aware you can set clicks and stuff. How else would 1a2a3a4a5a6a work? But the thing is, apart from macroing out of 6 facts (which is heplful) it doesn't do much else. That's all I'm saying.
I tried tons of fun stuff like 1ta 2ta 3a 4ta for marines (3 being medics) or 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a8a9a0a for mass hydra. But how much does that really help?
If you want to mass build with zerg for example, you need hatcheries in one place (i'm talking 5+ hatchs), and you already got F2/F3/F4 for that. I play protoss, and usually in PvT I use at LEAST 12 gateways. There's no way I can work with all of them, no matter how I macro. Maybe get 6 to do zeals then move you to the other 6 and you can build goons by hand.
BUT that has a catch. You don't know the game flow in advance, so you might need zeals in the other place and goons in the original place. I would struggle to remember which gateways are hotkeyed and how do I want them to build, when I can just press F3 and spam zzzzzzddddddkkkkk and so on.
As I said, the only matchups that it's turely useful in is TvP and TvT. Given you don't have that many production buildings, and you need to rally a lot and such. And I don't see why this has to be "earned". You buy better mice for accuracy, why not buy better keyboards for speed? Would you feel sorry for your opponent if his macro is sucky because his mouse glitches now and then?
My point is, I don't think the difference in gameplay level is significant enough to consider it "cheating" or anything like that. It will improve how fast you build, but seriously, if you remember that you HAVE to build in the first place, clicking on the minimap and then fast building isn't that horrible.
P.S. If you use winamp, then search for Ray's G15 Plugin (for Winamp). It interracts with the keyboard (you need to turn off media and such). It's got an equaliser, playlist scrolling from the keyboard alone, and other useful things.
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No, it takes away fun from the game IMO.
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That's some true players we got out there.
Always making starcraft's life harder.
No way to get some cheaps tricks or whatever !
Starcraft ftw or ftl your choice.
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I don't think it's that bad, it helps you learn the game and obviously macros aren't that flexible (if you want to change one you gotta alt-tab) so really you get more screwed for relying on them. It's an advantage over other players, but screw them, you spent $100 and they're probably just using their laptop keyboard, no contest. lol.
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United States20661 Posts
At LANs they most likely won't let you use them.
It's fine for online play, since it's not like anyone will know?
But personally I don't see the point of installing such gimmicks. if you ever become "good", you'll still have to learn to play with proper keyboard settings like everyone else.
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As soon as mistrzzz hears about this hes going to order one for overnight delivery
nothack NOTHACK!
btw if u set a macro for something like:
4sz5sz6sz7sz8sz9sz0sz even if u dont have hatches hotkeyed to 8, 9, or 0 you will still have 4567 make lings
a 1a2a3a and a 4r5r6r7r8r9r0r macro key is also really powerfull
wouldent it also be possible for it to autocreate workers for you? like ever 20 seconds or so have it do 0p9p8p?
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On August 11 2007 02:33 CubEdIn wrote:
And I don't see why this has to be "earned". You buy better mice for accuracy, why not buy better keyboards for speed? Would you feel sorry for your opponent if his macro is sucky because his mouse glitches now and then?
People are allowed to use good quality mice in tournaments but not macro buttons on keyboards.
On August 11 2007 04:02 wonnage wrote:
I don't think it's that bad, it helps you learn the game and obviously macros aren't that flexible (if you want to change one you gotta alt-tab) so really you get more screwed for relying on them. It's an advantage over other players, but screw them, you spent $100 and they're probably just using their laptop keyboard, no contest. lol.
You're not playing Starcraft if some macro buttons are doing half the work for you. And is there something wrong with laptop keyboards? I play on my laptop keyboard just fine, thank you. Screw other players? I wonder who'd want to play with you if they knew that you're using macro buttons. You're an inconsiderate prick. Take your ignorance elsewhere.
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On August 11 2007 02:33 CubEdIn wrote:
Well, trust me, I spent a lot of time with the macro keys. At least in the first two weeks after I got the keyboard. Yes I'm aware you can set clicks and stuff. How else would 1a2a3a4a5a6a work? But the thing is, apart from macroing out of 6 facts (which is heplful) it doesn't do much else. That's all I'm saying.
I tried tons of fun stuff like 1ta 2ta 3a 4ta for marines (3 being medics) or 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a8a9a0a for mass hydra. But how much does that really help?
If you want to mass build with zerg for example, you need hatcheries in one place (i'm talking 5+ hatchs), and you already got F2/F3/F4 for that. I play protoss, and usually in PvT I use at LEAST 12 gateways. There's no way I can work with all of them, no matter how I macro. Maybe get 6 to do zeals then move you to the other 6 and you can build goons by hand.
BUT that has a catch. You don't know the game flow in advance, so you might need zeals in the other place and goons in the original place. I would struggle to remember which gateways are hotkeyed and how do I want them to build, when I can just press F3 and spam zzzzzzddddddkkkkk and so on.
As I said, the only matchups that it's turely useful in is TvP and TvT. Given you don't have that many production buildings, and you need to rally a lot and such. And I don't see why this has to be "earned". You buy better mice for accuracy, why not buy better keyboards for speed? Would you feel sorry for your opponent if his macro is sucky because his mouse glitches now and then?
My point is, I don't think the difference in gameplay level is significant enough to consider it "cheating" or anything like that. It will improve how fast you build, but seriously, if you remember that you HAVE to build in the first place, clicking on the minimap and then fast building isn't that horrible.
P.S. If you use winamp, then search for Ray's G15 Plugin (for Winamp). It interracts with the keyboard (you need to turn off media and such). It's got an equaliser, playlist scrolling from the keyboard alone, and other useful things.
Yeah, you make a good argument. Still, I don't like thinking I'm getting the edge over someone because my keyboard is doing the work, haha. As you've said however, it probably doesn't give that much of an advantage really. My biggest problem is remembering to macro when I get caught up in an intense battle, not so much actualy DOING the macroing. Keyboard doesn't help with that!
I don't know what it is with Starcraft, but I feel like if I'm not working hard at it I'm doing something wrong, that's why I stopped using the macro keys. Afterall, I don't feel even the slightest bit of remorse for my recoil correction macros in Battlefield, haha. And they make a real difference. Whereas in Starcraft just using them makes me feel a little bad.
Thanks for the tip about Winamp!
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On August 10 2007 23:05 teh leet newb wrote:
Omg I really want one of these keyboards now. I could definitely use the text reminders, because I always forget stuff, especially when I'm under pressure. My memory sucks -_-;
Download more RAM
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On August 11 2007 06:39 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2007 02:33 CubEdIn wrote:
And I don't see why this has to be "earned". You buy better mice for accuracy, why not buy better keyboards for speed? Would you feel sorry for your opponent if his macro is sucky because his mouse glitches now and then? People are allowed to use good quality mice in tournaments but not macro buttons on keyboards. Show nested quote +On August 11 2007 04:02 wonnage wrote:
I don't think it's that bad, it helps you learn the game and obviously macros aren't that flexible (if you want to change one you gotta alt-tab) so really you get more screwed for relying on them. It's an advantage over other players, but screw them, you spent $100 and they're probably just using their laptop keyboard, no contest. lol. You're not playing Starcraft if some macro buttons are doing half the work for you. And is there something wrong with laptop keyboards? I play on my laptop keyboard just fine, thank you. Screw other players? I wonder who'd want to play with you if they knew that you're using macro buttons. You're an inconsiderate prick. Take your ignorance elsewhere.
I admire your passion.
But seriosuly, you're being too strict about this. First of all, I wasn't talking about tournaments, I'm just talking about better equipment to improve gaming. I'm not saying that it's the same thing, but you have to admit that a team using teamspeak has a significant advantage over one that does not, and has to type everything (especially in intense games like cs or dota). I'm not speaking from a pro/gosu/tournament point of view. I'm speaking about me playing you on battle net and me winning. Would you consider I won because of macro keys? Seriously.
I mean you probably have to play for yourself to see what the difference is. As sc0rched (and I) said, it's way more important to actually REMEMBER to macro then to do it. Doing it "manually" takes about 1-2 seconds anyway, and from an average-good player point of view, it's not absolutely critical that you watch the battlefield CONSTANTLY like NaDa does. So yes, it might help, I'm not saying no, but clearly not as much as you think.
Actually, if you get used to it, and use it constantly. you have probably advanced to the point where you could do it manually anyway. And no, macro buttons don't do half the work for you. Clicking on the building and slecting a unit to build is the LEAST bit of macro you're doing. What about build orders, timing, resource administration, upgrading properly, expanding properly, the keyboard can't really help you with any of that. Just spare you 4t5t6v7v8v9v into one button. If you think that that means HALF of the macro you do in starcraft then... you're not getting it. 
And as a bottom line. There's NOBODY that I can't beat without the G15 that I can WITH the G15. And trust me, I've played a lot, I bought one as soon as they got on the market. The same players that owned me before, still own me now. Keyboard/mouse have SO little to do with it.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Well, it's all your choice in the end. Personally, I would never use any devices that are not accepted in tournaments but that's just me. As you probably would've guessed, I have never used the G15 or its macro buttons before so I really don't know how well it would work. I'll take your word for it and assume that they don't help much.
I was simply angry at how wonnage admitted that it provides an advantage but takes such an ignorant stance at it by saying 'screw the people who don't buy $100 keyboards with programmable buttons'. I guess I'm a purist? =/
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On August 11 2007 11:23 infinity21 wrote:
Well, it's all your choice in the end. Personally, I would never use any devices that are not accepted in tournaments but that's just me. As you probably would've guessed, I have never used the G15 or its macro buttons before so I really don't know how well it would work. I'll take your word for it and assume that they don't help much.
I was simply angry at how wonnage admitted that it provides an advantage but takes such an ignorant stance at it by saying 'screw the people who don't buy $100 keyboards with programmable buttons'. I guess I'm a purist? =/
Heh, at the end of the day I'm a purist too I guess. But I'm a purist with a $100 keyboard, heh.
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EPT
