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Escalade 1.0 bug

Forum Index > BW General
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1 2 3 Next All
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-23 19:08:40
February 23 2020 19:08 GMT
#1
Escalade 1.0 has a problem for bottom left spawn for Zerg, where the creep doesn't fully cover the top left of the base. What this means is that you cannot put a spawning pool to the left of your extractor. In ZvT and ZvP it's not a big deal, but in ZvZ it is a prime location!

[image loading]
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
radley
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland582 Posts
February 23 2020 19:35 GMT
#2
So what? Just switch to protoss if it bothers you. There is no reason to create separate thread for smth that is visible and obvious for everyone. Contact map creator instead.
TL+ Member
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-24 05:09:58
February 23 2020 20:08 GMT
#3
On February 24 2020 04:35 radley wrote:
So what? Just switch to protoss if it bothers you. There is no reason to create separate thread for smth that is visible and obvious for everyone. Contact map creator instead.


I created this thread actually to figure out how to contact the map creator.
If someone can report it or let me know who it is we can delete this thread.

[EDIT] I just realized how unreasonably aggressive your reply was. I'm not whining about Zerg balance. Just noting something unusual. Plus, it's not like we're overflowing with Brood War threads. At least this one is relevant and interesting as it involves some map making tricks.
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
Dewaltoss
Profile Joined October 2015
102 Posts
February 23 2020 20:58 GMT
#4
Its not a bug, it's future of every modern maps. You can find same stuff on WhiteOut for example. It was made for better mining from top and bottom mineral patches. And it's not only on bottom left spawn.
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-23 21:56:16
February 23 2020 21:53 GMT
#5
Dewalt is basically correct although, more generally speaking, this actually works by modyfying the layout of the pathfinding regions on the map and there is no reason to put this stuff directly in the mineral line. I find it done very badly on this map. It's much more elegant to do this by editing some tiles around some edges or hide them under Geysers. That being said, this method works not due to unbuildability but because of (partial) unwalkability (or terrain level…) of those tiles. So you can just wall tight against those tiles with a Pool (or other building) as you would have otherwise done against the mineral lines directly – which you would have known, of course, if you had just tested it before you started this thread.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66156 Posts
February 24 2020 02:56 GMT
#6
It "fixes" the mineral line pathing, without it the workers go a long route
POGGERS
Ikirouta
Profile Blog Joined November 2017
Finland727 Posts
February 24 2020 03:37 GMT
#7
On February 24 2020 11:56 konadora wrote:
It "fixes" the mineral line pathing, without it the workers go a long route


This. Its a choice made by the map maker, not a bug.
Pusan fan #1, bad sair/reaver enthuisiast. twitch.tv/ikirouta
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66156 Posts
February 24 2020 03:57 GMT
#8
iirc Circuit Breaker top right position also has the same pathing hotfix tile
POGGERS
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-24 05:32:44
February 24 2020 04:50 GMT
#9
On February 24 2020 06:53 Freakling wrote:
Dewalt is basically correct although, more generally speaking, this actually works by modyfying the layout of the pathfinding regions on the map and there is no reason to put this stuff directly in the mineral line. I find it done very badly on this map. It's much more elegant to do this by editing some tiles around some edges or hide them under Geysers. That being said, this method works not due to unbuildability but because of (partial) unwalkability (or terrain level…) of those tiles. So you can just wall tight against those tiles with a Pool (or other building) as you would have otherwise done against the mineral lines directly – which you would have known, of course, if you had just tested it before you started this thread.


Not sure if I follow what you mean? You can't build anything to the right of the top mineral patch if you're Zerg because there is no creep. I'm sure your theory is correct about what people are trying to do, but I was in an actual game where I wanted to build the pool there and couldn't.

Here's a test in single player mode:

[image loading]
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-24 05:15:47
February 24 2020 04:51 GMT
#10
On February 24 2020 12:57 konadora wrote:
iirc Circuit Breaker top right position also has the same pathing hotfix tile


Interesting. Creep gets created fine there though and you can also build there.
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
February 24 2020 04:55 GMT
#11
On February 24 2020 05:58 Dewaltoss wrote:
Its not a bug, it's future of every modern maps. You can find same stuff on WhiteOut for example. It was made for better mining from top and bottom mineral patches. And it's not only on bottom left spawn.


I see. However, I think it's the first time creep actually wasn't able to form? I think you can build as Zerg anywhere in the base on WhiteOut.
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66156 Posts
February 24 2020 05:12 GMT
#12
[image loading]

unbuildable terrain, not simply unwalkable

[image loading]

like wise for bottom right.
POGGERS
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-24 05:31:31
February 24 2020 05:18 GMT
#13
On February 24 2020 14:12 konadora wrote:
[image loading]

unbuildable terrain, not simply unwalkable

[image loading]

like wise for bottom right.


Nice find, I didn't even realize bottom right had something similar. Positional balance wise not as big a deal as bottom left as you can still build a Pool right above and block the path to your mineral line.

Actually looking at bottom left, it seems like the one tile above the hotfix terrain is actually buildable, but Zerg cannot because creep fails to spread there and thus makes two tiles unbuildable.
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
February 24 2020 08:07 GMT
#14
I feel like a lot of this discussion would be resolved if you guys could actually be bothered to look into and think about it for just a little moment… I would really advise you to have a look at it through SCMDraft filters.

On February 24 2020 13:50 StRyKeR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2020 06:53 Freakling wrote:
Dewalt is basically correct although, more generally speaking, this actually works by modyfying the layout of the pathfinding regions on the map and there is no reason to put this stuff directly in the mineral line. I find it done very badly on this map. It's much more elegant to do this by editing some tiles around some edges or hide them under Geysers. That being said, this method works not due to unbuildability but because of (partial) unwalkability (or terrain level…) of those tiles. So you can just wall tight against those tiles with a Pool (or other building) as you would have otherwise done against the mineral lines directly – which you would have known, of course, if you had just tested it before you started this thread.


Not sure if I follow what you mean? You can't build anything to the right of the top mineral patch if you're Zerg because there is no creep. I'm sure your theory is correct about what people are trying to do, but I was in an actual game where I wanted to build the pool there and couldn't.

Here's a test in single player mode:

[image loading]

Build the pool against the tile, not the minerals!

On February 24 2020 13:51 StRyKeR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2020 12:57 konadora wrote:
iirc Circuit Breaker top right position also has the same pathing hotfix tile


Interesting. Creep gets created fine there though and you can also build there.

That's because this is a bullshit claim, CB has nothing of that kind. It was made in era before balancing via pathfinding manipulation was even a thing.

On February 24 2020 13:55 StRyKeR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2020 05:58 Dewaltoss wrote:
Its not a bug, it's future of every modern maps. You can find same stuff on WhiteOut for example. It was made for better mining from top and bottom mineral patches. And it's not only on bottom left spawn.


I see. However, I think it's the first time creep actually wasn't able to form? I think you can build as Zerg anywhere in the base on WhiteOut.

Top right and top left mains on Whiteout also have unwalkable tiles (parts of tree doodads) next to the topmost mineral patches.

On February 24 2020 14:12 konadora wrote:
+ Show Spoiler [show image] +
[image loading]


unbuildable terrain, not simply unwalkable

Unwalkable automatically implies unbuildable, even if the unbuildable flag is not set, with the caveat that if it's unwlkable but not unbuildable it will not block creep spread, as can be seen, incidently, on your following example of Escalade bottom right main:
+ Show Spoiler [show image] +
[image loading]

like wise for bottom right.

The latter effect is nice for natural choke designs where you want Zerg to be able to wall against bottom edges without a gap.

On February 24 2020 14:18 StRyKeR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2020 14:12 konadora wrote:
[image loading]

unbuildable terrain, not simply unwalkable

[image loading]

like wise for bottom right.


Nice find, I didn't even realize bottom right had something similar. Positional balance wise not as big a deal as bottom left as you can still build a Pool right above and block the path to your mineral line.

Actually looking at bottom left, it seems like the one tile above the hotfix terrain is actually buildable, but Zerg cannot because creep fails to spread there and thus makes two tiles unbuildable.

this is because of the difference in Creep spread I just described.


FK
Profile Joined May 2018
Hungary52 Posts
February 24 2020 08:23 GMT
#15
Has anyone ever even complained about the workers not mining well with the minerals being in that position? This just seems like redundant overtuning to me.
LML
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
Germany1762 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-24 09:48:34
February 24 2020 09:47 GMT
#16
Why does everyone who has the knowledge about it feel so superior and has to write in such an arrogant and condescending way, instead of explaining it in a normal manner? Clearly the person asking isn't familiar with the ins and outs of map making.
LML
pebble444
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Italy2497 Posts
February 24 2020 10:42 GMT
#17
this thread escaladed pretty quickly
"Awaken my Child, and embrace the Glory that is your Birthright"
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
February 24 2020 10:43 GMT
#18
On February 24 2020 18:47 LML wrote:
Why does everyone who has the knowledge about it feel so superior and has to write in such an arrogant and condescending way, instead of explaining it in a normal manner? Clearly the person asking isn't familiar with the ins and outs of map making.

Ins and outs of map making? This comes down to understanding what pathable terrain is.
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
February 24 2020 11:27 GMT
#19
On February 24 2020 19:42 pebble444 wrote:
this thread escaladed pretty quickly


I feel like this happens a lot, but at least I also learn a lot when we find out the answers :D
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
juvenal
Profile Joined July 2013
2448 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-24 11:32:21
February 24 2020 11:31 GMT
#20
I play since the game released and have no idea what pathable terrain is. Agree with LML, just be nice and tolerant to each other folks.
Michael Probu
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