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Escalade 1.0 bug
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
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radley
Poland582 Posts
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On February 24 2020 04:35 radley wrote: So what? Just switch to protoss if it bothers you. There is no reason to create separate thread for smth that is visible and obvious for everyone. Contact map creator instead. I created this thread actually to figure out how to contact the map creator. If someone can report it or let me know who it is we can delete this thread. [EDIT] I just realized how unreasonably aggressive your reply was. I'm not whining about Zerg balance. Just noting something unusual. Plus, it's not like we're overflowing with Brood War threads. At least this one is relevant and interesting as it involves some map making tricks. | ||
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Dewaltoss
102 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
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Ikirouta
Finland727 Posts
On February 24 2020 11:56 konadora wrote: It "fixes" the mineral line pathing, without it the workers go a long route This. Its a choice made by the map maker, not a bug. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On February 24 2020 06:53 Freakling wrote: Dewalt is basically correct although, more generally speaking, this actually works by modyfying the layout of the pathfinding regions on the map and there is no reason to put this stuff directly in the mineral line. I find it done very badly on this map. It's much more elegant to do this by editing some tiles around some edges or hide them under Geysers. That being said, this method works not due to unbuildability but because of (partial) unwalkability (or terrain level…) of those tiles. So you can just wall tight against those tiles with a Pool (or other building) as you would have otherwise done against the mineral lines directly – which you would have known, of course, if you had just tested it before you started this thread. Not sure if I follow what you mean? You can't build anything to the right of the top mineral patch if you're Zerg because there is no creep. I'm sure your theory is correct about what people are trying to do, but I was in an actual game where I wanted to build the pool there and couldn't. Here's a test in single player mode: ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/k9Lz09I.jpg) | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On February 24 2020 12:57 konadora wrote: iirc Circuit Breaker top right position also has the same pathing hotfix tile Interesting. Creep gets created fine there though and you can also build there. | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On February 24 2020 05:58 Dewaltoss wrote: Its not a bug, it's future of every modern maps. You can find same stuff on WhiteOut for example. It was made for better mining from top and bottom mineral patches. And it's not only on bottom left spawn. I see. However, I think it's the first time creep actually wasn't able to form? I think you can build as Zerg anywhere in the base on WhiteOut. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/puEEpKk.jpg) unbuildable terrain, not simply unwalkable ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Rk844pY.jpg) like wise for bottom right. | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On February 24 2020 14:12 konadora wrote: unbuildable terrain, not simply unwalkable like wise for bottom right. Nice find, I didn't even realize bottom right had something similar. Positional balance wise not as big a deal as bottom left as you can still build a Pool right above and block the path to your mineral line. Actually looking at bottom left, it seems like the one tile above the hotfix terrain is actually buildable, but Zerg cannot because creep fails to spread there and thus makes two tiles unbuildable. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On February 24 2020 13:50 StRyKeR wrote: Not sure if I follow what you mean? You can't build anything to the right of the top mineral patch if you're Zerg because there is no creep. I'm sure your theory is correct about what people are trying to do, but I was in an actual game where I wanted to build the pool there and couldn't. Here's a test in single player mode: Build the pool against the tile, not the minerals! On February 24 2020 13:51 StRyKeR wrote: Interesting. Creep gets created fine there though and you can also build there. That's because this is a bullshit claim, CB has nothing of that kind. It was made in era before balancing via pathfinding manipulation was even a thing. On February 24 2020 13:55 StRyKeR wrote: I see. However, I think it's the first time creep actually wasn't able to form? I think you can build as Zerg anywhere in the base on WhiteOut. Top right and top left mains on Whiteout also have unwalkable tiles (parts of tree doodads) next to the topmost mineral patches. On February 24 2020 14:12 konadora wrote: + Show Spoiler [show image] + unbuildable terrain, not simply unwalkable Unwalkable automatically implies unbuildable, even if the unbuildable flag is not set, with the caveat that if it's unwlkable but not unbuildable it will not block creep spread, as can be seen, incidently, on your following example of Escalade bottom right main: The latter effect is nice for natural choke designs where you want Zerg to be able to wall against bottom edges without a gap. On February 24 2020 14:18 StRyKeR wrote: Nice find, I didn't even realize bottom right had something similar. Positional balance wise not as big a deal as bottom left as you can still build a Pool right above and block the path to your mineral line. Actually looking at bottom left, it seems like the one tile above the hotfix terrain is actually buildable, but Zerg cannot because creep fails to spread there and thus makes two tiles unbuildable. this is because of the difference in Creep spread I just described. | ||
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FK
Hungary52 Posts
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LML
Germany1764 Posts
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pebble444
Italy2497 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On February 24 2020 18:47 LML wrote: Why does everyone who has the knowledge about it feel so superior and has to write in such an arrogant and condescending way, instead of explaining it in a normal manner? Clearly the person asking isn't familiar with the ins and outs of map making. Ins and outs of map making? This comes down to understanding what pathable terrain is. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 24 2020 19:42 pebble444 wrote: this thread escaladed pretty quickly I feel like this happens a lot, but at least I also learn a lot when we find out the answers :D | ||
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juvenal
2448 Posts
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pheer
5390 Posts
On February 24 2020 20:31 juvenal wrote: I play since the game released and have no idea what pathable terrain is. Agree with LML, just be nice and tolerant to each other folks. pathable = walkable = the square is green in the pics above Or, if you want to understand pathing in more depth (and grow your e-penis length for future measuring contests) give this a read: https://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/the-starcraft-path-finding-hack | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9500 Posts
On February 24 2020 19:42 pebble444 wrote: this thread escaladed pretty quickly Very nice. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On February 24 2020 18:47 LML wrote: Why does everyone who has the knowledge about it feel so superior and has to write in such an arrogant and condescending way, instead of explaining it in a normal manner? Clearly the person asking isn't familiar with the ins and outs of map making. Some things never change. Anyway, I guess what Freakling is trying to say is you need to learn how to make a good wall with the tile. One picture of a ZvZ wall making use of the tile would have been worth all the words in this thread. At least it's easy enough to test since you can make the zerglings yourself. It looks like any wall with the tile is going to be slightly less effective since more surface area of the spawning pool is exposed, but it's not the biggest deal... incidentally, it looks like that also might increase the surface area of the sunken on the inside. I guess it depends if you built the pool above or to the right, and whether or not that affects gas mining if you build the sunken also to the right so the whole geyser is covered. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
Grey terrain is unwalkable ("unpassable" microtile flag overlay), red tiles are unbuildable ("building placability" (sic!) tile flag overlay). Yellow borders show pathfinding regions, red rectangles are unit collision boxes. Again note: unwalkable (on at least one minitile) implies unbuildable, but Creep spread solely depends on the buildability flag, hence even spreads over and on top of (partially) unwalkable tiles. Here's how it looks on bottom left and how to wall against Lings with the Pool: + Show Spoiler [Show image] + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/PWusW7i.jpg) Here's how it looks for bottom right. + Show Spoiler [Show image] + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/HNsfkGf.jpg) And here how it looks with the unwalkable tiles replaced by standard terrain tiles, note the changes in the surrounding pathfinding region layout: + Show Spoiler [Show images] + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/EZavhAX.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/iFNz6RL.jpg) I would explain to you how this layout is bad and causes bugs, but only it does not, it is perfectly fine, so those awkward tiles would actually not even be needed in this case. I suspect they were added to balance an older map version, before some of the other terrain changes the map underwent, and then kept in as just an editing artifact. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On February 24 2020 18:47 LML wrote: I agree. Instead of the small community looking to create a good space for discussion, it become increasingly insular instead.Why does everyone who has the knowledge about it feel so superior and has to write in such an arrogant and condescending way, instead of explaining it in a normal manner? Clearly the person asking isn't familiar with the ins and outs of map making. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On February 25 2020 02:04 Freakling wrote: Sorry if my explanation was too hard to understand. If it's just words confusing the matter and you want a picture, here are some right from out of SCMDraft. Grey terrain is unwalkable ("unpassable" microtile flag overlay), red tiles are unbuildable ("building placability" (sic!) tile flag overlay). Yellow borders show pathfinding regions, red rectangles are unit collision boxes. Again note: unwalkable (on at least one minitile) implies unbuildable, but Creep spread solely depends on the buildability flag, hence even spreads over and on top of (partially) unwalkable tiles. Here's how it looks on bottom left and how to wall against Lings with the Pool: + Show Spoiler [Show image] + Here's how it looks for bottom right. + Show Spoiler [Show image] + And here how it looks with the unwalkable tiles replaced by standard terrain tiles, note the changes in the surrounding pathfinding region layout: + Show Spoiler [Show images] + I would explain to you how this layout is bad and causes bugs, but only it does not, it is perfectly fine, so those awkward tiles would actually not even be needed in this case. I suspect they were added to balance an older map version, before some of the other terrain changes the map underwent, and then kept in as just an editing artifact. Interesting. Functionally is a 'pathfinding region' really just a point in some instances? I imagine it might work like, you click a point anywhere in the map to make a unit move there, and then to pathfind it works out the lowest number of regions to go through to get there and then units go from point to point along that path until they end up at the last region and go to the point you clicked instead for the last one. And then I guess you're saying the size or shape of regions can be different depending on the unpathable red tiles. So is it ideal if all the minerals and the town hall end up in the same path region, thus they don't have to go to the center of the region before going to the town hall? Well that's neat. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/RridUmw.jpg) I wonder if he will go path A because there's a region in between, or if there is an exception when a beeline can be made with no red regions in the way and he will take path B instead... And if that's so, why peons don't get that exception when they're mining. I haven't played in many years so I don't remember how funny the pathing gets... it looks like if you just click a little ahead it would always work out, and clicking two regions worth might be more than a screenful enough of the time that you don't notice. Oh well, it will just have to be an unsolved mystery  | ||
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prosatan
Romania8023 Posts
Now i will go back to my all time friend map FS ! No problems there  | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On February 25 2020 21:45 prosatan wrote: I like to read these kind of threads ! Now i will go back to my all time friend map FS ! No problems there Except for tons of pathfinding related issues : Mining bugs in about half of the bases, some random Reaver jams, a ramp vortex... @Chef: It is not an unsolved mystery. But to explain to you exactly how it works would take a few paragraphs and a couple of screenshots, so I cannot do it till I am back at home. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8023 Posts
On February 25 2020 22:27 Freakling wrote: Except for tons of pathfinding related issues : Mining bugs in about half of the bases, some random Reaver jams, a ramp vortex... Yeah , I remember a pro game where dragoons got stucked on a ramp, on FS. They are so clumsy haha | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On February 25 2020 22:30 prosatan wrote: Yeah , I remember a pro game where dragoons got stucked on a ramp, on FS. They are so clumsy haha Not the goons' fault, solely an issue with the pathfinding region node on that tamp. Affects all ground units equally. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19234 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On February 26 2020 01:26 BisuDagger wrote: "You can be mean to me as long as you teach me a lesson." I tell my wife the same thing. Fantastic thread! The only thing that really bothers me is that the OP does not seem to even have put in the two minutes of in-game investigation it would have taken him to figure out a few things himself. Sorry Chef, I do not feel like writing a complete guide to BW pathfinding today, so here's a bare minimum version to address your specific question: As a start, if you really want to delve a bit deeper into it, I suggest you read further here (link provided by Sonko). Broodwar uses a variation of the A* algorithm described there that works on an irregular grid of regions and nodes. If you really want to delve deep, of course you can always study the OpenBW code. So let's have a look at your problem: First let's see what can actually be seen on the image and get some terminology straight: + Show Spoiler [show image] + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Mh63LLw.jpg) Let's colour some regions to make them easier to reference: + Show Spoiler [show image] + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/5SPSp5g.jpg) So our problem is to find the "shortest" path a ground unit (here represented by a Zergling) can take from a point in the blue region to the cursor marker position in the green region. Step one is for the game to determine which path is approximately the shortest between those two points. As they are in different regions, the game uses region node distances as an approximation. For our purposes we can easily eyeball the solution for this simple example and get the following path: + Show Spoiler [show image] + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/HHXIjKq.jpg) So now we know that the Zergling will try to go to the green region via the yellow region and, this is the important part, avoid all other regions, (mostly) travel only in vertical, horizontal or diagonal directions and try to find the most direct path towards the respective next region it wants to reach (as a short distance pathfinding solution). The resulting path will look something like the following (this is only my prediction, feel free to check it in-game): + Show Spoiler [show image] + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/oBPyQQi.jpg) So the Zergling will move a bit to the side to avoid that little outcrop of the cyan region (crossing which the pathfinding algorithm would consider a detour from the "optimal" route!), then cross the yellow region in a straight line to reach the green region and zero in on the target location once it reaches its destination region. As another example let's look at the worker mining paths: + Show Spoiler [show image] + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/WgQcIMu.jpg) The relevant region layout here is very simple – the blue region contains the resource depot and all the mineral fields, the green region contains the geyser and is directly connected to the blue region by a straight line from the right side of the geyser, where workers will respawn after mining. Approximate mining paths are outlined in white. Let's compare this to the layout with the unwalkable tiles in both bases removed: + Show Spoiler [show image] + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Idi8vGa.jpg) Looks a bit more complicated now. The regions have shifted around in reaction to the terrain changes. The green region contains the geyser, the blue region contains the resource depot and some of the mineral patches. There are, however, also some mineral patches in the yellow and red regions. Nevertheless this setup mines just as fine (at least for this layout of mineral patches) – all the regions are still directly accessible by straight line travel, so stuff being in different regions causes no issues. Finally let me show you an example what can actually go wrong – this is Fighting Spirit 1.3, bottom right natural: + Show Spoiler [show image] + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/r5gb4AQ.jpg) The important point to notice here is that by avoiding the "indirect" route through the red region workers on the bottom two mineral patches are forced into an inefficient mining path (particularly noticeable for Terran with a Comsat attached). | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
I think highly of your map making knowledge and have spent some time reading your posts so thanks for your reply. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19234 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
It looks like in your FS example it's the centre tile of the CC that matters. | ||
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Highgamer
1407 Posts
Dankeschön. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On February 27 2020 02:08 Chef wrote: Thanks Freakling, that makes perfect sense to me. So it starts out with a coarse search to find a path just through the regions, then once it has established the optimal coarse path, it figures out the higher resolution 1x1 squares path where units can move one of 8 directions to navigate the smaller search space through each region. It looks like in your FS example it's the centre tile of the CC that matters. The centre of the building space (coordinates rounded up, so if the building is an even number of tiles wide or high it will be on the tile down and to the right from the exact centre) is what determines to which tile/minitile, and accordingly region, a building belongs. | ||
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capacityex
27 Posts
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
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