Does Tesagi Exist? - Page 9

On January 12 2019 13:01 Luddite wrote:


That's interesting. Savior is such an outlier, the only non-T player to really dominate the scene (bonjwa) and apparently he even did it on maps that were rigged against Zerg.

The funny thing is, it doesn't seem like Savior had particularly great mechanics, at least not by pro standards. I know he was the first one to really perfect the 3-hatch macro Zerg style of play, but I'm surprised that it took so long for opponents to cope or for other zerg players to copy it. It almost seems like he rode to fame on the back of this one crazy build order and micro trick.

Also to go back to the idea that Tesagi is caused by the leaders... it really sucks for Zerg players that, after years of being beaten down by boxer-oov-nada, they finally get a real champion and it turns out he's a selfish piece of shit, lol. Somehow I doubt Savior was doing much mentoring or sharing his strategies.

Oh, and for toss players, they finally get a player who can win reliably at PvZ- Bisu- and... for some reason no one else can copy him. It's just weird. I've never understood why seemingly no one else can do what Bisu does. Not like he's a flash in the pan either, he's been winning at PvZ for a long time now. He might be the biggest outlier of them all.

On January 11 2019 22:35 BisuDagger wrote:


Off topic but you prompted me to go back and review some OSL seasons. Reading through "2006 Shinhan Bank OSL Season 3" really solidifies why Savior is one of the most incredible Starcraft players. How did he even win this tournament with the map pool?!?
2006 Shinhan Bank OSL Season 3

Longinus
" The fact that it still has somewhat passable statistics in ZvT has largely been attributed to sAviOr; without him the map stands at a grim 11-27 ZvT (29%). "

Arkanoid
"NaDa dominated Arkanoid during the 2006 Shinhan Bank OSL Season 2, 2006-2007 Shinhan Bank OSL Season 3, and 2007 Shinhan Bank OnGameNet Masters, reflected by his 15-2 record on both map versions combined" *Note Nada lost to Savior in the finals with this map in the pool

Reverse Temple
"Zerg had a hard time against Terran on this map; aside from sAviOr, who went 6-1 on it, the TvZ statistics for this map are 14-3 in favor of Terran. "

Hitchhiker
Close to balanced based on stats.

On January 13 2019 10:49 Luddite wrote:
Changing topics slightly- what's the deal with Fake Yellow? Look at his stats:
1v1 Record:
All: 154-144 (51.68%)
vT: 66-43 (60.55%)
vZ: 49-56 (46.67%)
vP: 39-45 (46.43%)

As far as I know he's the only pro Zerg player ever who has a much better record against T than any other matchup. He's like the Zerg Bisu, except not as good. What did he do differently than everyone else? Was he just practicing ZvT nonstop and nothing else?

On January 13 2019 10:49 Luddite wrote:
Changing topics slightly- what's the deal with Fake Yellow? Look at his stats:
1v1 Record:
All: 154-144 (51.68%)
vT: 66-43 (60.55%)
vZ: 49-56 (46.67%)
vP: 39-45 (46.43%)

As far as I know he's the only pro Zerg player ever who has a much better record against T than any other matchup. He's like the Zerg Bisu, except not as good. What did he do differently than everyone else? Was he just practicing ZvT nonstop and nothing else?

On January 13 2019 14:32 Letmelose wrote:


He was, in my opinion, one of the main beneficiaries of the mutalisk micro-management revolution. Even when the three hatchery management versus terran was in vogue due to sAviOr, YellOw[ArnC] stuck to his own style and kept making two hatchery management work with his own unique approach.

He was the dude that held the torch for aggressive unit focused style of zergs, when July was no longer the best zerg player around, and when Jaedong had yet to rise to superstardom, YellOw[ArnC] was the one branching out to non-conventional builds to make most of his unit mastery. His sheer level of mutalisk micro-management may not have equaled Jaedong, but the way in which he understood how to use them, coupled with his high level of execution made him nearly unstoppable versus the terran race. He was simply born to use stacked mutalisks, and he was one of the earliest zerg players to send low health mutalisks away to replenish their health bars, instead of attacking with them non-stop until they died.

These sort of characteristics that made YellOw[ArnC] such a threat versus the terran race wasn't so helpful versus the protoss race, since the greatest advantage zerg has over the protoss race is the information superiority, not the ability to outplay their units with your own. The way in which you angle your attacks, or abuse the terrain isn't as important, and it is more about laying the foundations for the superior set-up when it comes to defeating the protoss race, in my opinon.

On January 14 2019 06:43 MrMischelito wrote:
I really like how balance was adjusted and maintained by map design only for 17 years (!) without a single "balance patch".

I wonder why this was never possible for sc2. I guess with one expansion too many and yearly game-breaking redesigns of the gameplay, it is just a different philosophy...

On January 13 2019 15:17 Ideas wrote:


His zvt stats are also less impressive when you consider that he only had about 110 ZvT matches before getting banned, (a lot for an average progamer, but jaedong had almost 3x as many). And he only qualified for a handful for individual leagues (and reached the BoX stage of even fewer), whereas jaedong has dozens of zvt matches vs the best tvzers ever in Bo5s. He had great muta micro no doubt, one of the best ever. But he had nowhere near the depth of jaedong.

Sorry not to say that you were implying he was better or as good as JD, just that you made me look at yarnc's TLPD again and it made me realize just how fucking impressive and good jaedong is haha.

Real Yellow also has a super impressive record considering he has dozens of ZvTs against the very best TvZers of his era in BoXs, AND a long slump and Airforce ACE games on his record and he still retired with a 54% ZvT record (and the second highest zvt ELO peak). Surprisingly Jaedong still has more recorded official ZvT matches than Yellow (274 to Yellow's 225).

Basically now that I think about it, the point of this post is that im a little drunk but FUCK jaedong is/was so damn good. I really hope he is able to participate in 1 more league before going to the army :\

On January 15 2019 08:48 Moopower wrote:
I think if you simply just change the PvZ match up to be less dodgy it'll make protoss more tournament viable. where once protoss loses scouting probe to speedlings they have to have the instincts of flash to anticipate any all-in type of strategies like 3 hatch hydra,etc. I'd say cannons should warp in a little faster to account for the hydras coming in or a combination of that and having hydra upgrades like atk range and movement speed take a little longer or more gas to research. That won't change Zerg's other match ups and will allow protoss to stop losing to stupid shit that gives zerg all the decision power in the game. A good example of a Zerg taking advantage of 3 hatch hydra is JD vs Rain. Rain did make a mistake by leaving his wall in open which resulted in his cannons not warping in time for the hydras later but he defended well with probes to buy time but he took such an economic hit he was so behind, when he tried to scout with zealots since his probes couldn't get out to see anything, but other than that one mistake, I don't see why Rain should be punished so heavily for a low risk but high reward strategy done by any zerg much less JD.

Zergs used to get punished badly with failing to end the game with 3 hatch hydra but now they have calculated with precision how much damage they can inflict on protoss to equalize the game at the bare minimum or be ahead, but the risk was so low to begin with it's why zergs are rewarded to do a low risk but high payoff strategy like this. Normally it should be high risk high reward, but not so in ZvP. Protoss makes a critical mistake early game, they lose outright, if they don't, game continues.

I think everyone can agree the PvZ match up is fairly balanced once you enter mid-late game and it's up to the player's skill and not simply lucky or not mind reading what zerg is doing at all times. I know mind games are good but not when there's little chance for the other player to reasonably anticipate vs the risk and reward relative to the zerg player is taking. There needs to be an equilibrium of how much zerg is risking for a high payoff vs a protoss just losing outright because of one error. We understand this concept when someone does a cheesy strat, it may be harder to scout and anticipate when it's done sparingly but the risk is you lose the game if it doesn't work unless you somehow manage to do enough damage with it. Zerg all-in cheeses are easier to transition into mid to late game relative to other cheeses with other races and match ups with not as much repercussions while Protoss has to stay vigilant at all times.

Because protoss gets knocked out more easily in PvZ, that makes Terran's harder match up less prevalent giving them the best statistical odds of winning in any given tournament.

As for TvZ, I think zerg have finally been able to successfully defend their 3rd base without much problems in a standard game. It isn't on a knife edge as it has been in the past where if Zerg makes one critical mistake they can lose their 3rd and then lose the game as compared to the PvZ match up. I think players like soulkey and larva have mapped out the ZvT match up in their favor and only supreme Terrans like Flash and Last can contest them.

The key issue is mainly PvZ, protoss has no viable way of scouting zerg if they decide to get speedlings, zealots just get traded inefficiently until protoss gets +1 or splash dmg and until they get corsair for scouting which will be too late for the all-ins.

One solution without any balance patches would be for protoss to stop being greedy and just cannon up to 2-3 cannons if they see speedling tech, which will buy themselves more time if they sniff out a hydra bust coming. But would that equalize out if zerg decides to fake out the protoss and just go economy from there? This would delay protoss's 1st push and harassing speedlots.

And I dont know why protoss don't practice their corsair control more, if they keep corsairs alive like bisu does all game, muta switches and ht snipes would happen much less. Or getting DA tech.

Because of the match ups and how they play out, Terrans have tournament match up statistics on their side simply because of PvZ. I don't think Terrans are Tesagi vs Zerg. I've seen enough Zergs to dominate good Terrans to see how Zerg can punish sloppy Terran play and vice versa with an equilibrium of risk/pay off rewards. If a Terran makes a risky play but it pays off then great, but the Terran can get punished heavily for it, then I think that's fine balance wise.

On January 10 2019 01:26 [AS]Rattus wrote:
so protoss players have hardest time and are therefore best players and human beings.
understood.