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On October 07 2016 18:57 kogeT wrote:
75 Jade 1.814
poses a lot of questions to the ranking. A very well balanced map is far at the end of the ranking.
Yeah, when I was entering in the numbers, I was fairly surprised too. But it was a relatively new map for pro BW standards, without a huge sample size, and I believe only 1 ZvZ played between the two versions of it.
Remember, it's a purely pro BW ranking, and doesn't include amateur BW at all. Next step is to maybe try and incorporate both (as well as international), but its not easy to decide the best way to do it.
I'm just performing a treatment of the numbers given to me, and if you look on TLPD, it definitely doesn't look like a good map. I can't just introduce arbitrary this map is good coefficients.
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How does this take into effect elite players? (Fantasy, Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Jangbi)
Example: Fantasy/Flash have an 80% win rate against zerg on map X - but the TvZ matchup on Map X is 50/50 - which includes the best players 80% win rate. Do you by any chance eliminate extremes on your Standard Deviations?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
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5 Fantasy II 9.920
LOOOOOOOOL~! The weirdest map ever considered as top 5 balanced maps.
12 Katrina 6.942
I really wanna see Katrina playing at this meta, seems decent map for starleagues.
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Japan11908 Posts
Interesting results, I somehow predicted Blue Storm will be number one but only that. The compiled stats from the pro era make it into a 'balanced' map statswise. It's quite surprising and funny how 815 III is more balanced than Outsider lol. Or how Monty Hall is more balanced than Rush Hour and Grand Line SE.
Can you say umm, do a bi-annual rankings of maps (to account for meta changes and maybe even outliers in S-class games)? ^_^
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Where is paradoxxx? not even listed ^^
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Kau
Canada3502 Posts
On October 07 2016 16:04 FiWiFaKi wrote:
25 Hitchhiker 5.707
28 Monty Hall 4.882
44 Outsider 3.713
Pretty good ranks for my 3 favorite maps :D
I wonder where Waiting to Panic would fall in this ranking haha.
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Maybe instead of one giant comparison you could split it into 2-3 year intervals to get a more accurate idea since meta, talent, changes over time?
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On October 07 2016 22:18 catabowl wrote:
How does this take into effect elite players? (Fantasy, Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Jangbi)
Example: Fantasy/Flash have an 80% win rate against zerg on map X - but the TvZ matchup on Map X is 50/50 - which includes the best players 80% win rate. Do you by any chance eliminate extremes on your Standard Deviations?
It doesn't, I mentioned it one of my posts on the first page, just to tough to do with the way I extracted my data, and it still took 4~ hours just to transfer it all over to excel.
On October 07 2016 23:11 c3rberUs wrote:
Interesting results, I somehow predicted Blue Storm will be number one but only that. The compiled stats from the pro era make it into a 'balanced' map statswise. It's quite surprising and funny how 815 III is more balanced than Outsider lol. Or how Monty Hall is more balanced than Rush Hour and Grand Line SE.
Can you say umm, do a bi-annual rankings of maps (to account for meta changes and maybe even outliers in S-class games)? ^_^
Not sure how a bi-annual ranking would take into meta changes in its current form. Each map currently gets a value assigned in one year value based on its year of maximum popularity from a tournament standpoint. I think that that the intervals are reasonably close together that it would make almost no difference at all. What I could do in theory is extract every game played on that map individually, and give each game a different weight. It's the same thing with S-class players, I'd have to have to calculate elite players in every time period, which would involve calculating everyone's winrate, and it's just a lot and a lot of things to consider, if I was the owner of 538, maybe I'd go into such depth, but it's really difficult for something like this.
Also keep in mind that for all maps, I have roughly 36,000 data points, unlike presidential polling, the aggregate sample size is a lot smaller here. From just going through every map, I'd say you need somewhere along the lines of 150~ maps to get a good indication of balance, even in a 35k data point poll of 177 maps, there will be plenty that don't reach that. Breaking it into more subgroups to perform statistical analysis will imo enter more uncertainty than good.
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Yeah, I didn't think Outsider was so rough initially either (I'm a fan of the map), after all the worst match up on it is ZvP at 61.2%... It's just there's also the implicit imbalance of having 68 ZvZ played, and only 13 PvP, fairly indicative that zergs were very happy to play this map.
On October 07 2016 23:58 ppp87 wrote:
Where is paradoxxx? not even listed ^^
Rank 135, score of 0.757, only 8 maps with lower, but non-zero score. Small sample size of only 30 games, and a win rate of zero in one MU send it into the ground.
On October 08 2016 02:20 Kau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2016 16:04 FiWiFaKi wrote:
25 Hitchhiker 5.707
28 Monty Hall 4.882
44 Outsider 3.713
Pretty good ranks for my 3 favorite maps :D I wonder where Waiting to Panic would fall in this ranking haha.
Should've gotten it to a Korean tournament, looking at that TL thread, looks silly, yeah 
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Statistics...
6 Destination 9.897 xDDDDDDDDDDDD
Being a map where zerg simply should not win vs any terran at all ^^
_
xD
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I wonder where Korhal of Ceres would end up
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On October 07 2016 23:06 outscar wrote:
5 Fantasy II 9.920
LOOOOOOOOL~! The weirdest map ever considered as top 5 balanced maps.
12 Katrina 6.942
I really wanna see Katrina playing at this meta, seems decent map for starleagues.
Katrina is way too vanilla, you'd barely notice any difference in how games are played except for TvPs going longer.
The hitchhiker/monty hall ratios are hilarious if you consider that they were made specifically to stunt MJY's record and he still went nearly even in ZvT.
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What I would actually like to see is more detailed statistics of maps that are not only broken down by racial matchups but also by (relative) starting positions of the players. In theory a map that has any sort of strong positional advantage (be it through rotational design like FS or Aztec, through differences in horizontal vs. vertical matchups, like on CB, or through outright asymmetrical design, like Fantasy, which scored suspiciously high on this list, or just through significant disparity in 3-worker gas mining rates) could seem perfectly balanced in race statistics (due to the positional advantage overcompensating for racial disadvantages and starting positions being about equally distributed over sufficiently large sample sizes) but be in fact any amount of badly balanced (from an overall fair play point of view).
Another interesting inquiry would be to look at racial winning rates over game duration. This would also yield some interesting results, for example when looking at easily split two player maps with sparse expos, such as Matchpoint or Blue Storm.
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I totally agree with tau cross. Very fast and open map. The fact that bases are very exposed with no cliff and 3 different paths makes it a favourite for offensive and creative gameplay. No wonder it would be one of the most balanced.
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Seeing the place of Longinus II makes me shiver about the ones that are below this.
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There are different methods for rating a map's balance within the professional scene (not how it plays out in the current era), and maps such as Tau Cross, Blue Storm, Fighting Spirit, and Circuit Breaker always tend to top the list no matter which algorithm you use. There's been discussions similar to this thread on Korean communities as well.
I wonder if you would be interested in starting a discussion over rating the various seasons of the ProLeagues according to their map pool, and how balanced they were. Which season of the ProLeague were the most skewed towards specific races, which players were the outliers, and such. Of course, the same sort of discussion could be made for the individual leagues, but the limited number of games, and the vastly different outcomes depending on the performances of a select few players would make the numbers more difficult to dissect in my opinion.
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On October 10 2016 22:22 Endymion wrote:
blue storm lmfao
1000% perfect balance 
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EPT
