Map (2)Niobe 1v1 - Page 2

B-royal

Belgium1330 Posts

February 01 2016 15:39 GMT

#21

Maybe you could consider making some of the problematic expansions mineral only (see top right and bottom left corners behind the main, or their naturals).

shall_burn

252 Posts

February 01 2016 18:46 GMT

#22

would be fun to make some small islands in those ponds (1 per pond) so that t could drop a single tank there. So that the opponent needs to make sure he can fend it off w/ shuttle/flying unit

Holgerius

Sweden16951 Posts

February 01 2016 19:54 GMT

#23

On January 30 2016 09:06 Piste wrote:
For me it looks like PvT will be hard since terran can take so many expansion with tanks. :O

Comments like these literally ALWAYS appear when there's a new map announced.

It seems like it's the first thing some people look at when analyzing a new map, tankable locations. Even maps like Battle Royal had comments about tanks being imba. :D

It looks really good! We need new additions to the map pool.

Jukado

805 Posts

February 01 2016 23:37 GMT

#24

@ B-royal I think I covered quite in depth that I dont see a problem. If one of the bases was a mineral only then that would be bad for Zerg in ZvT, thats an important reason to keep the gas.

@shall_burn Would be kind of fun but Im not a huge fan of the idea in this case.

Jukado

805 Posts

February 04 2016 16:43 GMT

#25

I should clarify my last post a bit. What I meant is if a game develops into the situation that fearthequeen described, then I think it will work out acceptably. So the question is; B-royal do you see those expansions as problematic in the same way as fearthequeen or in a different way?

Heres my opinion: I think there is a possibility that Terran can eventually get up to 5 base and sit on 5 bases a bit too easily by taking all of the individual expansions. And from there, he can THEN take the empty main/nat as his 6th and 7th base later on. Its this kind of game that might prove to be particularly troublesome in my view (tvp or tvz).

But I might be wrong. It may be that a different race has an advantage on this map in different matchups. Generally the easiest target is to say terran anyway.
However, it might even be balanced! Overall I believe Niobe has a good shot of being adequately so.

In ZvT lategame, I said in a previous post

Zerg can get up to 4 bases like on a 4 player map here and have viable future expos beyond that, while at the same time have options to attack Terran at good timings and I believe can keep Terran in check relatively well (as good as the average map atleast).

I can see little niggles that might come in to play especially in the really long games. But honestly the map basically is what it is at this point in terms of design. Don’t get me wrong though, I certainly reckon its good enough for serious competition. Im going to test it and we can check everything is playing nicely etc. Im going to offer it to iccup ladder eventually.

btw, a zerg player can extend his sunken field far out of either of the nat entrances if he/she so desires.

Also:
4th February 2016
Version 0.92 Niobe
-Tweak to walling on lowground below the centre base large ramp

Jukado

805 Posts

February 08 2016 02:03 GMT

#26

8th February 2016
Version 0.93 Niobe
-Smaller centre base, 1 less ramp in
-Wider path around the centre base
-Resources in the Main changed (start location moved 1 tile sideways)
-Added 2 fully unwalkable tiles behind the main mineral line
-Added 2 unbuildable tiles behind the main mineral line

[image loading]

Compared to the old pic (0.91)
+ Show Spoiler +

In the previous version, the main mineral line had a patch where workers would mine it quite fast but the movement was kinked. It was kind of annoying more than anything. I tried lots of different formations but there was always a problem somewhere.
So eventually I tried moving the start location 1 tile vertically. I didnt find a good formation and wasnt perfectly satisfied with the position anyway.
Next, I moved the start location 1 tile sideways. This is what we have now. The formation is mostly all good. The top mineral is a teeny bit imperfect.

As the start location has moved 1 tile sideways, the gap behind the mineral line is now 1 tile wider. This means you would normally be able to build a gateway or similar behind the min line. However, there are 2 unbuildable tiles which prevent this.
There are also 2 fully unwalkable tiles behind the min line. They enable you to make a wall easily with 1 pylon or depot etc. This can be useful to limit vulture movement for example.

Ive also snipped off some of the unbuildable cliff tiles on the edge of the main close to the nat edge. This means that although the start location has moved sideways 1 tile, there is still the same amount of buildable space to the side of the town hall.

In the badlands tileset there are these weird high ground grass tiles that have a single green pixel even though the tile is meant to be yellow. Its extremely irritating when you notice one, so I removed them from the mains.

But anyway, what do you think about the more important change, the centre base! The ramp that leads to the middle of the map has been moved back a bit, so the path is wider there.

FlaShFTW

United States10151 Posts

February 08 2016 04:28 GMT

#27

i like the changes on the center bases.

pebble444

Italy2497 Posts

February 08 2016 06:48 GMT

#28

excuse my French.... but i took a look at this map and its hot like a vagina

KameZerg

Sweden1762 Posts

February 08 2016 07:25 GMT

#29

this map looks super disadvantegous for zerg. Looks really hard for zerg to get a good engagement on this map

Bakuryu

Germany1065 Posts

February 08 2016 14:52 GMT

#30

i dont see any problems for zerg on this map

KameZerg

Sweden1762 Posts

February 08 2016 15:47 GMT

#31

On February 08 2016 23:52 Bakuryu wrote:
i dont see any problems for zerg on this map

If you try to sorround a attackingProtoss army, theres chokes everywhere.

Bakuryu

Germany1065 Posts

February 08 2016 19:06 GMT

#32

i see a big open middle making it very easy to surround protoss army and before you can actually surround a protoss you have to get your army out on the map first anyway regardless of map.

Avexyli

United States694 Posts

February 08 2016 20:06 GMT

#33

I feel like you can just hug the sides towards the water and not really have to worry about Z surrounds, though. I'd agree, Tanks feel like they have a strong presence with the little hills.

Wonder how mech tvz would work out.

RoomOfMush

1296 Posts

February 08 2016 21:06 GMT

#34

The chokes also mean that lurkers & dark swarm are going to be hell, especially for terran. If a dark swarm is cast in those chokey areas in front of the natural there is no room for maneuvering. You can only stay back and wait it out. In constrast to other maps though the zerg has an easy way to send some units out for a back stab because of all those passages.

Jukado

805 Posts

February 13 2016 21:08 GMT

#35

In PvZ, imagine Protoss parks his goon army outside the zerg nat and starts picking at the hatchery that is walling. This map is a bit like circuit breaker in that there is a choke similar to the thin bridges on circuit breaker. Zerg may have hydras etc at his 3rd base that he wants to bring over to his nat to help defend.
Protoss can storm these zerg reinforcements as they arrive similar to how P can storm the bridges on circuit. (see the storm symbol on the picture)
The chokepoint Im talking about is ofcourse at the bottom of the double ramp at the centre base. Zerg could try moving a handful of his units up into the centre base and then coming down through the small ramp to cut off Protoss army retreat a little bit. This is a minor tactic though.
Either way, the choke in question is still wider than the bridge on Circuit Breaker and is easier to attack through. Zerg should be able to hold his natural using reinforcements from his 3rd. The choke will help Protoss to take out a nice amount of units though and this is good for balance. So this choke is a good size and location, Im happy with it.

Later in the ZvP, zerg might decide that there are sort of three critical chokes further out on the map. One choke either side of the 3 ramp hill. And one choke between the centre base and the 2 ramp hill (or between the centre base and the water).
Zerg may attempt to hold these chokes with lurker darkswarm etc. This also helps make the map interesting for ZvT in my opinion. It enables zerg to develop a decent map split which is quite uncommon.

But importantly, behind these chokes are fairly large open areas (the black rectangles). They are good killzones if the enemy spills through, or indeed you can encourage him to come through if thats your tactic.

So these things show I certainly think zerg have options of how to play here. And yes I agree the middle is wide and open which helps even more.

@Avexyli, You cant just hug the side next to the water and not worry about zerg surround because the middle is so open. And if zerg doesn’t engage at that moment, the army will have to enter one of the killzones where zerg can perform a surround if she wishes.
But I agree mech TvZ is something to keep an eye on for sure. Im pretty confident it will be quite good.

@RoomOfMush I agree about lurker darkswarm being able to hold the red choke points in the picture and I think this will make gameplay good for lategame ZvT when facing mech switch for example.
I don’t totally agree about the area outside the naturals though. Its actually kind of a large space when compared to some maps. And you can retreat from this area in 2 directions or even retreat up onto the centre base if you so desired. Therefore terran can dodge the lurker darkswarm move outs and can manoeuvre adequately. When you say terran can only stay back and wait it out, well that’s normal and I don’t see how this map differs from others. That’s just how lurker under darkswarm works. If anything this map (sort of) gives more options, because as I said, terran can retreat onto the high ground centre base and remain in a more aggressive stance as a result.
However, I absolutely agree with you about zerg being able to send some units out around the ‘contain’ for a backstab. So yes it weakens terrans options. But its actually something I quite like. Its good to encourage a little bit of zerg options when it comes to late game ZvT otherwise Zerg can find himself stuck on 4 base while Terran has taken 5 and is sitting pretty.

edit: Hosting session over, cheers for the games guys.

Jukado

805 Posts

February 15 2016 21:05 GMT

#36

Here are some example probe traps for air stacks. You can trap a ling using a 2nd ling on hold position in these spots too (where the single pylons are in either main, and all 3 spots at either nat).

[image loading]

For the next version of the map, I will probably change a tile so that you can also do a probe trap like this at Blue main:
[image loading]

fearthequeen

United States786 Posts

February 16 2016 00:47 GMT

#37

hmm, cardinal you really like torturing probes, never knew

Jukado

805 Posts

February 16 2016 12:11 GMT

#38

Infamous gas thieves deserve nothing less (referring to pylon prison*, not torture).
* Disclaimer: This weak joke does not accurately portray CardinalAllin's view of the judicial system.