I nearly lost it when I watched game three of Casy vs July last week. The play that Casy made has not gotten the exposure it deserves, so I put together this little recap for you guys. Pens and papers out people.
Casy pulled a strategic move, so genius, it would make Boxer green with envy.
July scouts Casy, who has a handful of rines at his wall area.
Casy forces July's overlord back.
Casy transfers a group of SCVs to his nat minerals so July's overlord can see them.
Thinking that Casy is playing an FE build, July is too slow with his sunkens and is run over.
That's how you beat one of the best Zergs in the world in 6 minutes.
Casy exploited the overlord scouting that all Zergs rely on to make their strategic decisions. Absolutely brilliant.
What do you guys think of this dandy bit of deception? Am I making too much of it? Is it more awesome than I thought and I'm missing details?
When I saw it I thought it was really awesome. It was almost as awesome as BoxeR's CC lift. It also actually won the game, unlike BoxeR's cc lift [lol~]
I do think July was a bit careless in that he didn't send in sacrifice lings to check up on infantry numbers/composition every once in awhile. If he saw the little batch of meds/bats that casy was massing up then he would have been much better off. Only using the ovie as scout was insufficient.
haha..i mentioned it in the sc2.org thread, and no one wanted to discuss it! i was very surprised at how the commentators thought that was a very serious mistake...you can hear from their commentary.
i thought differently, however...it was a pretty slick move on Casy's part. i dun think the overlord went close enough to actually see a command center, but once July wasn't able to verify (only thinking there was a nat cc) he sent his zerglings down to skirmish, thinking Casy went 1 rax-command center!
On February 06 2007 19:52 Last Romantic wrote: When I saw it I thought it was really awesome. It was almost as awesome as BoxeR's CC lift. It also actually won the game, unlike BoxeR's cc lift [lol~]
I do think July was a bit careless in that he didn't send in sacrifice lings to check up on infantry numbers/composition every once in awhile. If he saw the little batch of meds/bats that casy was massing up then he would have been much better off. Only using the ovie as scout was insufficient.
i think July did send them down, since he wasn't sure of Casy's build, whether it was a 1 rax or 2 rax build. but making July think there was a nat cc done was slick in that he moved all his lings down to check up.
pretty well thought out trick but I think if july had of paid a little more attention to the fact the scv's didnt return he might of been able to react in time.
I don't think it was a fake for 1 rax CC, because Casy had a fairly large number of rines, which he made visible. I think it was intended to be a 2 rax CC fake.
The cool thing is that it happened so fast that the delay in sunkens, and the possibly scouting of Casy's growing infantry numbers could only have been done in the length of time it takes to build a medic and a fire bat because once Casy had stim and 3 firebats and a medic to go with his initial rines, he was already at July's nat.
The time windows are so small that the tiny delay in sunkens was all Casy was going for.
i meant to say that Casy wanted July to think he went 1 rax+CC. yeah you are right that he did go 2 rax CC, and that was the fake. July's overlord scouted before his lings made contact, so July didn't know the marine number other than the 6 or so that attempted to shoot it down, and by that time, his lings came down to investigate try to see the build.
On February 06 2007 20:06 oddeye wrote: I did not find it that impressive honestly. Since the scv aren't always mining... but yeah it won him the game I think.
That's kind of the point. It all happened so quickly that the one extra round of drones instead of quicker sunk time is what got him that tiny bit of extra time he needed to attack.
The entire game from start to finish was only 6 minutes.
This was one of those things that within 2 seconds of seeing it, you say in your head "That's gonna be a Pimpest Play this year!" - And in a game where you don't see that very much anymore, that says a lot.
My jaw dropped, and I just kept thinking to myself, neo-emperor, neo-emperor!
On February 06 2007 19:53 sOnagi wrote: haha..i mentioned it in the sc2.org thread, and no one wanted to discuss it! i was very surprised at how the commentators thought that was a very serious mistake...you can hear from their commentary.
yea when I was watching I was yelling at the screen saying "NO YOU'RE WRONG IT WAS A FAKE EXPO!!!" I seriously was going to go insane at their stupidity (OSL commentators seem to be less intelligent bw-wise than MSL commentators)
On February 06 2007 20:06 oddeye wrote: I did not find it that impressive honestly. Since the scv aren't always mining... but yeah it won him the game I think.
If you didn't find it impressive, then I don't think you understood the significance. The very instant July sees the SCVs, he probably used his larva/money for drones, and would've completely switched his mindset, by the time he realized what happened, it was way too late. It was a straight up spectacular move that just screams of Boxer, giving you that nostalgic feel you had years ago when you saw the original emperor wowing us in the first place.
On February 06 2007 20:06 oddeye wrote: I did not find it that impressive honestly. Since the scv aren't always mining... but yeah it won him the game I think.
If you didn't find it impressive, then I don't think you understood the significance. The very instant July sees the SCVs, he probably used his larva/money for drones, and would've completely switched his mindset, by the time he realized what happened, it was way too late. It was a straight up spectacular move that just screams of Boxer, giving you that nostalgic feel you had years ago when you saw the original emperor wowing us in the first place.
I'll apologize on his behalf for not thinking identically to you and saying that in his opinion he didn't find it so impressive. So what if he made all his larva drones? If he saw that the scvs never came back he would make sunkens. It's not as if he couldn't cut everything to make sunkens to survive. It was a clever move and well executed but it succeeded more because July did not take the time to think things through more thoroughly
the difference between this and old boxer games is casy has no doubt practiced this so many times over it would be hard for him to fuck it up, I can appreciate the effort but it's something different than boxers spontaneity or ability to respond like that unplanned in high risk situations with very little time. I think it's cute but just too calculated and low risk to call it a pimpest play, though maybe in 2007 we will just have to accept it as that.
edit: and really we don't even know if the genius was casy himself with all the coaching and teamwork that's going on these days
On February 06 2007 20:06 oddeye wrote: I did not find it that impressive honestly. Since the scv aren't always mining... but yeah it won him the game I think.
If you didn't find it impressive, then I don't think you understood the significance. The very instant July sees the SCVs, he probably used his larva/money for drones, and would've completely switched his mindset, by the time he realized what happened, it was way too late. It was a straight up spectacular move that just screams of Boxer, giving you that nostalgic feel you had years ago when you saw the original emperor wowing us in the first place.
I'll apologize on his behalf for not thinking identically to you and saying that in his opinion he didn't find it so impressive. So what if he made all his larva drones? If he saw that the scvs never came back he would make sunkens. It's not as if he couldn't cut everything to make sunkens to survive. It was a clever move and well executed but it succeeded more because July did not take the time to think things through more thoroughly
july didnt have the proper time to prepare more sunks by the time he realized what was going on, thats the beauty of this move. its not like july sat there for a while playing vs 2 rax CC, he reacted to 2 rax CC IMMEDIATELY and thats ALL that casy needed to win the game.
On February 06 2007 21:28 nortydog wrote: the difference between this and old boxer games is casy has no doubt practiced this so many times over it would be hard for him to fuck it up, I can appreciate the effort but it's something different than boxers spontaneity or ability to respond like that unplanned in high risk situations with very little time. I think it's cute but just too calculated and low risk to call it a pimpest play, though maybe in 2007 we will just have to accept it as that.
Eh? I don't buy that necessarily, because it relied on a certain set of conditions; namely,
1) July having an overlord right outside the nat expo,
2) The Overlord being far enough away so that he could see only the mineral patches, not the CC itself,
3) July having no other means of gathering information on Casy's build
That's not to he's never seen himself in this situation before, but it's probably not something he counted on using before the game began. So *shrugs*, I'll take it for what it's worth.
On February 06 2007 20:06 oddeye wrote: I did not find it that impressive honestly. Since the scv aren't always mining... but yeah it won him the game I think.
If you didn't find it impressive, then I don't think you understood the significance. The very instant July sees the SCVs, he probably used his larva/money for drones, and would've completely switched his mindset, by the time he realized what happened, it was way too late. It was a straight up spectacular move that just screams of Boxer, giving you that nostalgic feel you had years ago when you saw the original emperor wowing us in the first place.
I'll apologize on his behalf for not thinking identically to you and saying that in his opinion he didn't find it so impressive. So what if he made all his larva drones? If he saw that the scvs never came back he would make sunkens. It's not as if he couldn't cut everything to make sunkens to survive. It was a clever move and well executed but it succeeded more because July did not take the time to think things through more thoroughly
yeah because its just so easy to think "gee maybe its a FAKE FE WITH MINING SCVS let me check to see if they return before i make a round of drones"
if u ever played zerg you would understand the play...we don't think oh look hes faking an expo... especially in high level matches everything is crucial =[ i mean when in the hell are u gunna think thats not an expo... u think we watch the SCVs, we see them mining we 100% assume its expo bc its never been proven otherwise
You make some good points there nortydog. I still think the move was pimp, though it true that it was very practiced and calculated. However, he did need to respond to his opponent. If July drone scouted, or snuck a ling, or somehow saw the academy build or even gone 9 pool this wouldn't have worked. So the beauty is in the execution. He played his opponent like a chump, since the conditions were right.
Also, I agree that we can't credit Casy with inventing the strat since we don't know what goes on in that Sparky's house. For all we know it was Draco's idea. However, much like Ra's hallucinated double recall on GF back in one of the old pimpest plays, the fact that he did it on TV is in itself awesome.
On February 06 2007 21:23 ArC_man wrote: July didn't have time to think things through more clearly because Casy was up his ass like 10 seconds after that happened.
What Arc_man wrote here is basically the one liner that explains why this was so awesome. One extra round of drones was all the window that Casy needed. Yes, it does make that much of a difference.
On February 06 2007 21:04 EvilTeletubby wrote: This was one of those things that within 2 seconds of seeing it, you say in your head "That's gonna be a Pimpest Play this year!" - And in a game where you don't see that very much anymore, that says a lot
for the people with doubts to the awesomness of this play, if you watched the VOD, you could see that july really had no reason to believe he was being 2 rax acad rushed till he got scanned.
- he saw scv's mine expo then moved the ove away so he didn't get to notice they never came back - his lings only saw a pack of rines because casy had his firebat and medic at the back of his mnm pack(this is why i think he only made one sunk at first)
basically, casy controlled what july saw and reacted to it to win the game. video edit*
No no I think it's July's ling controll that lost him. He could've flanked better... Hmm... when he made those lings I'm sure he could've stopped the attack. But Casy's micro is SO good... just superb. And the fact that he attacked at the choke w/ those 3 mineral blocks which means July cannot flank properly probably helped too. Pimp move still, I'm just saying it is not the ONLY thing that made Casy win. In addition to that pimp move there's also Casy's good control, July's poor flank, and the position of hard to flanking all weight equally to each other.
That move was plain good. Not pimp And July bight it , his mistake You ppl need to start thinking more The point of the game is to win the opponent with warfare tactics and not how cool you can micro macro , get my point ?
On February 06 2007 22:04 fikifiki wrote: I would suggest reading Sun Tzu : The Art of War
That move was plain good. Not pimp And July bight it , his mistake You ppl need to start thinking more The point of the game is to win the opponent with warfare tactics and not how cool you can micro macro , get my point ?
umm...
i guess misleading your opponent as to what your strategy is not a warfare tactic... =[
That was a brilliant deception, have to admit. Getting the timing right for all his scvs to show up when the OV was on his cliff must've been really tough to pull off. IMO, this is a huge contender for pimpest plays 2007.
On February 06 2007 21:58 evanthebouncy~ wrote: No no I think it's July's ling controll that lost him. He could've flanked better... Hmm... when he made those lings I'm sure he could've stopped the attack. But Casy's micro is SO good... just superb. And the fact that he attacked at the choke w/ those 3 mineral blocks which means July cannot flank properly probably helped too. Pimp move still, I'm just saying it is not the ONLY thing that made Casy win. In addition to that pimp move there's also Casy's good control, July's poor flank, and the position of hard to flanking all weight equally to each other.
i disagree, i dont see a reason to take away the "pimpness" of this move and give some of it to july's micro because it is the lack of lings + late sunk that killed july. andddd casy had 2 bats following up so he woulda had 2-3 stimmed firebats running around his eco(that's only if all his marines died)
i believe july just did not have enough to defend even if he had done better flanking
I agree. It wouldn't have really mattered if some of those lings were outside flanking in, or if there were a few more really. July would have made sunks with that ling money if he knew the acad rush was coming. You can't defend that with a ling heavy/sunk light defense, all things equal.
On February 06 2007 22:04 fikifiki wrote: I would suggest reading Sun Tzu : The Art of War
That move was plain good. Not pimp And July bight it , his mistake You ppl need to start thinking more The point of the game is to win the opponent with warfare tactics and not how cool you can micro macro , get my point ?
You sir, are just silly. Please don't ruin my thread by instigating a hundred people to flame you for a page.
I read this thread before seeing the VOD and my jaw still dropped. The only move more risky than this, which puts you massively behind in econ since you need as many SCVs constantly mining as you can get, is Boxer's CC lift on Blade Storm. The strategy and risk involved in faking an expansion is enormous, because you're one-hundred percent relying on your opponent's reaction. July played right into his hands. Truly artful I'd say.
On February 06 2007 22:04 fikifiki wrote: I would suggest reading Sun Tzu : The Art of War
That move was plain good. Not pimp And July bight it , his mistake You ppl need to start thinking more The point of the game is to win the opponent with warfare tactics and not how cool you can micro macro , get my point ?
Im a very silent man usually dont write my thoughts here but you are the kind of person that i hate: YOU SUGGEST THE FORUM TO READ Sun Tzu : The Art of War?? WE NEED TO START THINKING MORE?? there are two options either you are a ten years old kid in wich case i apologize and take all my words back or you are an stupid that read TSAW and you think you are the next broodwar king You MAN need to start STFU
btw the move was awesome, maibe july didnt play 100% well and the move is very game dependant but i have seen almost all the last live games from ogn and msl and the closest to this kind of "creativity" are upmagics cheeses, this is AMAZING because its not plain cheese its an intentional misinformation from casy AND a practical use of it (ok an abuse of it).
On February 06 2007 21:58 evanthebouncy~ wrote: No no I think it's July's ling controll that lost him. He could've flanked better... Hmm... when he made those lings I'm sure he could've stopped the attack. But Casy's micro is SO good... just superb. And the fact that he attacked at the choke w/ those 3 mineral blocks which means July cannot flank properly probably helped too. Pimp move still, I'm just saying it is not the ONLY thing that made Casy win. In addition to that pimp move there's also Casy's good control, July's poor flank, and the position of hard to flanking all weight equally to each other.
I agree, when i saw that move i though, hmm, that was sneaky. but then i saw july with 2 groups of speedlings and though, ah-ha, hes knows whats going on. He is going to trick the trickster by pretending to be weak then having casys' marines for breakfast when he attacks. but then the minerals messed up the AI and casy microed his firebats and it was T_T gg
On February 06 2007 21:58 evanthebouncy~ wrote: No no I think it's July's ling controll that lost him. He could've flanked better... Hmm... when he made those lings I'm sure he could've stopped the attack. But Casy's micro is SO good... just superb. And the fact that he attacked at the choke w/ those 3 mineral blocks which means July cannot flank properly probably helped too. Pimp move still, I'm just saying it is not the ONLY thing that made Casy win. In addition to that pimp move there's also Casy's good control, July's poor flank, and the position of hard to flanking all weight equally to each other.
I agree, when i saw that move i though, hmm, that was sneaky. but then i saw july with 2 groups of speedlings and though, ah-ha, hes knows whats going on. He is going to trick the trickster by pretending to be weak then having casys' marines for breakfast when he attacks. but then the minerals messed up the AI and casy microed his firebats and it was T_T gg
Not really dude. Those were mostly, "holy crap im gonna die!" last minute lings. If July was planning on protecting himself, sunks would have been there.
On February 06 2007 22:04 fikifiki wrote: I would suggest reading Sun Tzu : The Art of War
That move was plain good. Not pimp And July bight it , his mistake You ppl need to start thinking more The point of the game is to win the opponent with warfare tactics and not how cool you can micro macro , get my point ?
Im a very silent man usually dont write my thoughts here but you are the kind of person that i hate: YOU SUGGEST THE FORUM TO READ Sun Tzu : The Art of War?? WE NEED TO START THINKING MORE?? there are two options either you are a ten years old kid in wich case i apologize and take all my words back or you are an stupid that read TSAW and you think you are the next broodwar king You MAN need to start STFU
btw the move was awesome, maibe july didnt play 100% well and the move is very game dependant but i have seen almost all the last live games from ogn and msl and the closest to this kind of "creativity" are upmagics cheeses, this is AMAZING because its not plain cheese its an intentional misinformation from casy AND a practical use of it (ok an abuse of it).
Yea i suggest it cause it is THE BEST BOOK you can read for warfare and enemy psychology etc... There is nothing wrong with that. I'm just telling my fcking opinion. And i say you start to think more because i have lived 27 years in this planet , full of stupid self destructing ppl , who seem to get very pissed off when you say the truth. Also when someone says you need to think more DOESNT imply that you are stupid. Thanks... Here is the book Sun Tzu - Art of war
On February 06 2007 22:04 fikifiki wrote: I would suggest reading Sun Tzu : The Art of War
That move was plain good. Not pimp And July bight it , his mistake You ppl need to start thinking more The point of the game is to win the opponent with warfare tactics and not how cool you can micro macro , get my point ?
You don't seem to know anything about actually playing BW, it's easy to throw that kind of thing but this is not warfare theory, it's a video game with a lot of limitations. You don't create and efficient strategy at high level nor you fool a top player like July that easily.
Who are you to tell us we need to start thinking more ? The next Boxer ? Go play the game at even decent lvl and plz come back to share your ultimate builds -___-;
On February 06 2007 22:04 fikifiki wrote: I would suggest reading Sun Tzu : The Art of War
That move was plain good. Not pimp And July bight it , his mistake You ppl need to start thinking more The point of the game is to win the opponent with warfare tactics and not how cool you can micro macro , get my point ?
Im a very silent man usually dont write my thoughts here but you are the kind of person that i hate: YOU SUGGEST THE FORUM TO READ Sun Tzu : The Art of War?? WE NEED TO START THINKING MORE?? there are two options either you are a ten years old kid in wich case i apologize and take all my words back or you are an stupid that read TSAW and you think you are the next broodwar king You MAN need to start STFU
btw the move was awesome, maibe july didnt play 100% well and the move is very game dependant but i have seen almost all the last live games from ogn and msl and the closest to this kind of "creativity" are upmagics cheeses, this is AMAZING because its not plain cheese its an intentional misinformation from casy AND a practical use of it (ok an abuse of it).
Yea i suggest it cause it is THE BEST BOOK you can read for warfare and enemy psychology etc... There is nothing wrong with that. I'm just telling my fcking opinion. And i say you start to think more because i have lived 27 years in this planet , full of stupid self destructing ppl , who seem to get very pissed off when you say the truth. Also when someone says you need to think more DOESNT imply that you are stupid. Thanks... Here is the book Sun Tzu - Art of war
Yeah ok -__- but BW wise your point is still just totally irrevelant
edit : to put it simple you are thinking as such : He tricked him into believing he wasn't going offensive. Which is nothing really special in itself but we are not talking about that. It's rather :
He tricked a former OSL champion top 5 korean zerg into thinking he was fast expanding without even starting to build a CC in an official starleague bw game. ..... Which is TOTALLY GOSU
The pimpness of this move is not questionnable period
Sun Tzu also says "know your enemy". Also, "When big, seem small, when small, seem big." When you seem uprepared, be prepared, etc. Go for the quick victory. (roughly translated)
Casy knew July would react like that.
Casy won. He won FAST. He looked small (unit-wise). He was big.
The limitations are within the game and not in human beings. Even in brood war (during game) you can get scared , overconfident , happy , "i'm doomed" mode , etc... Ok so i'm not winning games because i use tactics like that , its because my opponent suck , or i'm just a freaking lucky bastard. Ooh and i dont have to prove anything to anyone , especially in a forum
Guys shut up with the silly high jack. Who gives a shit, if you want to, read the book, otherwise, ... wut? You expect something?
On February 06 2007 21:04 EvilTeletubby wrote: This was one of those things that within 2 seconds of seeing it, you say in your head "That's gonna be a Pimpest Play this year!" - And in a game where you don't see that very much anymore, that says a lot.
My jaw dropped, and I just kept thinking to myself, neo-emperor, neo-emperor!
Do we have a believer? ^_^ Do we? DO WE?!?!! Join the cult!
And I think it's so pimp is because it can only be done at the highest level. Casy's SCVs didn't make the return trip because he saw the OL's reaction which meant July bought the bait. Come on~ That's sick.
SICK SICK revenge for that early rookie 4 pool torment. This game must have been so sweet. Ahhhh sweet.
On February 06 2007 23:43 fikifiki wrote: The limitations are within the game and not in human beings. Even in brood war (during game) you can get scared , overconfident , happy , "i'm doomed" mode , etc... Ok so i'm not winning games because i use tactics like that , its because my opponent suck , or i'm just a freaking lucky bastard. Ooh and i dont have to prove anything to anyone , especially in a forum
i don't get it...if you say limitations are within the game and not in human beings, then how do human emotions (such as fear, overconfidence, happiness, the like) not factor in, as you said before? you just flipped your own premise.
not to say that the art of war is not a good book - it is a very good book. currently some business leaders are recommending its employees to read the book and learn. starcraft does have nice strategy, that's one of the many reasons it has existed for so long.
On February 06 2007 23:43 fikifiki wrote: The limitations are within the game and not in human beings. Even in brood war (during game) you can get scared , overconfident , happy , "i'm doomed" mode , etc... Ok so i'm not winning games because i use tactics like that , its because my opponent suck , or i'm just a freaking lucky bastard. Ooh and i dont have to prove anything to anyone , especially in a forum
i don't get it...if you say limitations are within the game and not in human beings, then how do human emotions (such as fear, overconfidence, happiness, the like) not factor in, as you said before? you just flipped your own premise.
not to say that the art of war is not a good book - it is a very good book. currently some business leaders are recommending its employees to read the book and learn. starcraft does have nice strategy, that's one of the many reasons it has existed for so long.
I dont get you either i'm saying that they factor in and i'm using this in my games. My favourite one is pretending i'm noob
PS. Yesterday in some game my opponent typed : fu gg ... ????? has quit the game
On February 06 2007 22:27 ManaBlue wrote: I agree. It wouldn't have really mattered if some of those lings were outside flanking in, or if there were a few more really. July would have made sunks with that ling money if he knew the acad rush was coming. You can't defend that with a ling heavy/sunk light defense, all things equal.
On February 06 2007 22:04 fikifiki wrote: I would suggest reading Sun Tzu : The Art of War
That move was plain good. Not pimp And July bight it , his mistake You ppl need to start thinking more The point of the game is to win the opponent with warfare tactics and not how cool you can micro macro , get my point ?
You sir, are just silly. Please don't ruin my thread by instigating a hundred people to flame you for a page.
On February 06 2007 23:43 fikifiki wrote: The limitations are within the game and not in human beings. Even in brood war (during game) you can get scared , overconfident , happy , "i'm doomed" mode , etc... Ok so i'm not winning games because i use tactics like that , its because my opponent suck , or i'm just a freaking lucky bastard. Ooh and i dont have to prove anything to anyone , especially in a forum
i don't get it...if you say limitations are within the game and not in human beings, then how do human emotions (such as fear, overconfidence, happiness, the like) not factor in, as you said before? you just flipped your own premise.
not to say that the art of war is not a good book - it is a very good book. currently some business leaders are recommending its employees to read the book and learn. starcraft does have nice strategy, that's one of the many reasons it has existed for so long.
I dont get you either i'm saying that they factor in and i'm using this in my games. My favourite one is pretending i'm noob
PS. Yesterday in some game my opponent typed : fu gg ... ????? has quit the game
so the limitations are with humans then right, not with the game as you previously stated? check back on what you wrote.
all of those who downplay this obvious pimp fucking play are glass half empty people who suck in the first place so I dont even care to listen to their debauchery. The very definition of an amazing play is doing something unorthodox, risky, in a high pressure situation, and pulling it off. Casy did that. And he did it with STYLE. July got caught off guard for JUST long enough to get completely smashed.
On February 06 2007 23:43 fikifiki wrote: The limitations are within the game and not in human beings. Even in brood war (during game) you can get scared , overconfident , happy , "i'm doomed" mode , etc... Ok so i'm not winning games because i use tactics like that , its because my opponent suck , or i'm just a freaking lucky bastard. Ooh and i dont have to prove anything to anyone , especially in a forum
i don't get it...if you say limitations are within the game and not in human beings, then how do human emotions (such as fear, overconfidence, happiness, the like) not factor in, as you said before? you just flipped your own premise.
not to say that the art of war is not a good book - it is a very good book. currently some business leaders are recommending its employees to read the book and learn. starcraft does have nice strategy, that's one of the many reasons it has existed for so long.
I dont get you either i'm saying that they factor in and i'm using this in my games. My favourite one is pretending i'm noob
PS. Yesterday in some game my opponent typed : fu gg ... ????? has quit the game
so the limitations are with humans then right, not with the game as you previously stated? check back on what you wrote.
Too many quotes ^^ Humans can do anything they want , starcraft has limitation in comparison to real army tactics. Units don't route , no morale , no discipline , always ready to fire and a billion other things that make startcraft what it is. So sc is basically general vs general . No army factors.
Edit: Casy's move was something really simple , yet not being used , so it paid off.He was being smart , rare thing to see in games. Progamers do a lot of stuff like that but its difficult to understand even when you stand behind them and watch while they play. I would be happy to see pimpest 2007
On February 06 2007 23:43 fikifiki wrote: The limitations are within the game and not in human beings. Even in brood war (during game) you can get scared , overconfident , happy , "i'm doomed" mode , etc... Ok so i'm not winning games because i use tactics like that , its because my opponent suck , or i'm just a freaking lucky bastard. Ooh and i dont have to prove anything to anyone , especially in a forum
i don't get it...if you say limitations are within the game and not in human beings, then how do human emotions (such as fear, overconfidence, happiness, the like) not factor in, as you said before? you just flipped your own premise.
not to say that the art of war is not a good book - it is a very good book. currently some business leaders are recommending its employees to read the book and learn. starcraft does have nice strategy, that's one of the many reasons it has existed for so long.
I dont get you either i'm saying that they factor in and i'm using this in my games. My favourite one is pretending i'm noob
PS. Yesterday in some game my opponent typed : fu gg ... ????? has quit the game
so the limitations are with humans then right, not with the game as you previously stated? check back on what you wrote.
Too many quotes ^^ Humans can do anything they want , starcraft has limitation in comparison to real army tactics. Units don't route , no morale , no discipline , always ready to fire and a billion other things that make startcraft what it is. So sc is basically general vs general . No army factors.
shhhh you are rambling about stuff that has NOTHING to do with how AWESOME casy's play was
It was an impressive play but only to a degree. casy most likely cut scvs to get that many units in that short of a time. if july blocked the rush which wouldve been likely if he had one more sunken, then casy wouldve been down by a looooot since he hadnt even started his cc. basically a very well disguised spark rush that was all in like all sparks. also july shouldve saw with ling how many rines casy had, that was carelessness on his part.
On February 06 2007 23:43 fikifiki wrote: The limitations are within the game and not in human beings. Even in brood war (during game) you can get scared , overconfident , happy , "i'm doomed" mode , etc... Ok so i'm not winning games because i use tactics like that , its because my opponent suck , or i'm just a freaking lucky bastard. Ooh and i dont have to prove anything to anyone , especially in a forum
i don't get it...if you say limitations are within the game and not in human beings, then how do human emotions (such as fear, overconfidence, happiness, the like) not factor in, as you said before? you just flipped your own premise.
not to say that the art of war is not a good book - it is a very good book. currently some business leaders are recommending its employees to read the book and learn. starcraft does have nice strategy, that's one of the many reasons it has existed for so long.
I dont get you either i'm saying that they factor in and i'm using this in my games. My favourite one is pretending i'm noob
PS. Yesterday in some game my opponent typed : fu gg ... ????? has quit the game
so the limitations are with humans then right, not with the game as you previously stated? check back on what you wrote.
Too many quotes ^^ Humans can do anything they want , starcraft has limitation in comparison to real army tactics. Units don't route , no morale , no discipline , always ready to fire and a billion other things that make startcraft what it is. So sc is basically general vs general . No army factors.
army morale and discipline are not tactics, what suntzu said applies to all forms of competition, including starcraft.
Look at July after he typed gg. He was downright dissapointed cause he knew a miscalculation cost him the game & the place in the league. In these macro/timing oriented times of starcraft you HAVE to use mindtricks. Boxer proved it in his last game too (trendsetter? ). The simple fact that small things like this aint done (often) proves how tight progaming is. So when you acctually do a mindtrick you have to be absolutly shure you can pull it off cause when it backfires you cant rely on your enemy doing a mistake himself.
Edit: Casy's move was something really simple , yet not being used , so it paid off.He was being smart , rare thing to see in games. Progamers do a lot of stuff like that but its difficult to understand even when you stand behind them and watch while they play.
Right, what a silly simple thing that is underused.
However, how long do you need to come up with such ideas while sit your ass there doing nothing but analyzing?? Now try to do that in the middle of a real battle while busy macroing(in case you are a noob that means clicking around and builting, you know, builtings and units). Also consider what is on the table: it's a do or die match! The skill of decision making is also involved. I doubt you even have the balls to take such risk.
People tend to think they are superior than what they really are, thinking they can do all kinds of things while never put themselves into the actual situation.
If you are into The Art of War, then you should know not to 纸上谈兵
2. if you suddenly do that strat in the middle of a game you are a retard. the amount of mining time you lose + random map/positions/execution level/opponent's opinions towards sunkens makes it --------ev.
don't flame over something so trivial with 28 posts please, especially with lame ones like, "if youre a noob, macro means..blah blah", c'mon man
On February 07 2007 01:23 zulu_nation8 wrote: also july shouldve saw with ling how many rines casy had, that was carelessness on his part.
...
That was the trick... Casy didn't fake 1 Rax CC, seeing the rine n° July had guessed there were 2 Rax, it's the fast acad + medic + firebat +stim he had that he hid to July letting him think he had a CC instead.
The lings were clearly enough to stop that n° of marines, but not with firebats + medics and that's how Casy won the game.
On February 07 2007 02:53 zulu_nation8 wrote: 1. that was planned ahead of game
2. if you suddenly do that strat in the middle of a game you are a retard. the amount of mining time you lose + random map/positions/execution level/opponent's opinions towards sunkens makes it --------ev.
don't flame over something so trivial with 28 posts please, especially with lame ones like, "if youre a noob, macro means..blah blah", c'mon man
No that was not planned...
He didn't invent the trick during the game, that's for sure but you can't plan a trick like that. The conditions have to be right.
He was going for a fast accad rush and seeing the conditions were right he used to trick to get an extra edge and it worked great, that's what makes it pimp !
On February 07 2007 01:23 zulu_nation8 wrote: also july shouldve saw with ling how many rines casy had, that was carelessness on his part.
...
That was the trick... Casy didn't fake 1 Rax CC, seeing the rine n° July had guessed there were 2 Rax, it's the fast acad + medic + firebat +stim he had that he hid to July letting him think he had a CC instead.
The lings were clearly enough to stop that n° of marines, but not with firebats + medics and that's how Casy won the game.
i meant to place a ling in front of t's natural. what are you talking bout
it was for sure a genius move by casy but it was also julys fault to play completely blind just with ovi scouting in such an important game. but to make genious builds work it always need minor mistakes by the opponent
On February 07 2007 02:53 zulu_nation8 wrote: 1. that was planned ahead of game
2. if you suddenly do that strat in the middle of a game you are a retard. the amount of mining time you lose + random map/positions/execution level/opponent's opinions towards sunkens makes it --------ev.
don't flame over something so trivial with 28 posts please, especially with lame ones like, "if youre a noob, macro means..blah blah", c'mon man
No that was not planned...
He didn't invent the trick during the game, that's for sure but you can't plan a trick like that. The conditions have to be right.
He was going for a fast accad rush and seeing the conditions were right he used to trick to get an extra edge and it worked great, that's what makes it pimp !
of course you can plan it if you know the map and your opponents style. when was the last time you saw normal academy cc vs 3 hatch? it's highly unlikely casys game plan was: hey its 12vs6 i'm gonna do a regular 2 rax early academy build and hope for the best. academy cc is a considerably worse build than cc academy on maps where zerg can easily sunken, have reguar base distances and zerg 3 hatches.
that was a very nice move to say the least, and anybody who says he wasn't impressed imgaine being July and making different decisions based on the information he had. "thinking things through more thoroughly" isn't as easy as it sound when you are playing at this speed and under high pressure.
oh my god i just saw that video and July's face right after the game ends is just sad...i almost dropped a tear. his facial expression screamed: "ZOMG what the hell did i just lose to??? O.o!"
i think he thought about quitting his career right there.
On February 07 2007 03:50 Cpt Obvious wrote: oh my god i just saw that video and July's face right after the game ends is just sad...i almost dropped a tear. his facial expression screamed: "ZOMG what the hell did i just lose to??? O.o!"
i think he thought about quitting his career right there.
At the start of the game, casy used one scv to scout the west/north side of his base, probably knowing the exact time an overlord would appear there if july had spawned at 9. Seeing no sign of an overlord, casy sent his scv to 3' and started his second rax.
This strategy is probably not possible as a 6' terran vs 9' zerg considering julys overlord wouldnt reach his nat in time. Then Casy decided to this strat. Im amazed over how conscious he seems to be about timing. Everything has to be done in the exact second, or it probably wont work.
Such a genius move, always loved casy and his gameplay and this really proves he is the closest gamer ever to be compared to boxer-,- (still got a long way to go and there will never be another boxer but this guy is just amazing ;p)
i wouldnt have fell for it, 1st of all scvs only came to expo once, 2nd even if scvs came for 2nd time the time delay inbetween is too long, obviously judging from those id know casy was up to some shit.
The stuff about the art of war is mostly bullshit. I've read it and he states the obvious. It is largely impractical for modern warfare and totally irrelevant to starcraft. This doesn't mean it's a bad book. It means it is a book taken so far out of it's original context and mis-applied to so many irrelevant situations that it loses meaning. As for the trick itself, it was very clever. Not completely original, I've been using similar builds for some time (as I'm sure v-tec players have). But to do it on television against an opponent of that calibre with such a small margin of error impresses me.
On February 07 2007 06:42 18jotbob wrote: i wouldnt have fell for it, 1st of all scvs only came to expo once, 2nd even if scvs came for 2nd time the time delay inbetween is too long, obviously judging from those id know casy was up to some shit.
LOL stfu noob, by the time you are staring at your overlord looking for the 2nd scv mining timing, Casy was already at July's face blasting away what little he had.
This is why starcraft is still alive, the innovation, creativity and understanding of the game continues to evolve and amazes countless fans who can understand its genious. This is the equivilant of watching Wayne Gretsky or Mike Jordan at their best.
On February 07 2007 06:42 18jotbob wrote: i wouldnt have fell for it, 1st of all scvs only came to expo once, 2nd even if scvs came for 2nd time the time delay inbetween is too long, obviously judging from those id know casy was up to some shit.
LOL stfu noob, by the time you are staring at your overlord looking for the 2nd scv mining timing, Casy was already at July's face blasting away what little he had.
GG 18Dickfood.
u r fucking dumb, at least i would have some lings i nfront of casys exit, and make 3 sunkens? just cuz ur shitty observation of minimap sucks doesnt mean no1 else can detect it was somekind of trick
On February 07 2007 06:42 18jotbob wrote: i wouldnt have fell for it, 1st of all scvs only came to expo once, 2nd even if scvs came for 2nd time the time delay inbetween is too long, obviously judging from those id know casy was up to some shit.
LOL stfu noob, by the time you are staring at your overlord looking for the 2nd scv mining timing, Casy was already at July's face blasting away what little he had.
GG 18Dickfood.
u r fucking dumb, at least i would have some lings i nfront of casys exit, and make 3 sunkens? just cuz ur shitty observation of minimap sucks doesnt mean no1 else can detect it was somekind of trick
On February 07 2007 06:42 18jotbob wrote: i wouldnt have fell for it, 1st of all scvs only came to expo once, 2nd even if scvs came for 2nd time the time delay inbetween is too long, obviously judging from those id know casy was up to some shit.
LOL stfu noob, by the time you are staring at your overlord looking for the 2nd scv mining timing, Casy was already at July's face blasting away what little he had.
GG 18Dickfood.
u r fucking dumb, at least i would have some lings i nfront of casys exit, and make 3 sunkens? just cuz ur shitty observation of minimap sucks doesnt mean no1 else can detect it was somekind of trick
Seriously, don't. You're asking to get banned.
On February 07 2007 06:32 DTDominion wrote: Man. If this was Boxer you guys would be posting in droves to suck his dick, as you should.
But when Casy does it that doesn't seem to be happening, even though this is easily one of the most brilliant Brood War strats ever.
There's more than a little truth to that statement.
Really great tactic, watching that VOD was like getting a tasty waft of brilliance from the large slice that Casy cut from that game. He predicted July's reaction so utterly... great stuff.
To me, Casy's fake FE was absolute beauty. Although it may have put him behind by a bit, I thought it was a brilliant move on his part. That said, July did get up his sunkens about 5-10 seconds later than he should have, but Casy's fake FE would have been even more effective (as in completely demolishing July) had July not luckily scouted his marines at his nat choke shortly after.
if anyone doesnt think boxer practiced his cheeses and such you are nuts
and casy did do that sort of spontaneously, he tried to kill the overlord with his marines remember? If he had killed it he wouldnt have used scvs to mine.
anyone who says this play is anything but brilliant is fucking bad at brood war.
if you were even half-decent, you would understand exactly what july was thinking and why he fell for it. Sure, alot of shitty players wouldn't have been fooled, but that's because they're too fucking shitty to know how to play this game.
fucking beautifil maneuver. i haven't been this impressed in a *long* time.
18jotbob might not have fallen for it. I wouldn't have fallen for it; but that's because I am too crappy and slow compared professional level play. I wouldn't be able to react in time, and I would still lose. This is the sort of deception that only works at the highest levels of skill where even just a few seconds of action and reaction can make the difference betwen a win and a loss.
With all that said, this was trualy an amazing play and deserves the respect of anyone who claims to be a fan of professional SCBW.
On February 07 2007 03:51 zulu_nation8 wrote: also another amazing move was when casy killed 3 burrowed lurkers with about 1 group of rines losing only 1 at the end of the longinus game
Lol that's what casy is known for -.-. neo-emperor, crazy micro. He has the best marine micro of any pro in my opinion along with boxer.
On February 07 2007 11:26 Sadist wrote: if anyone doesnt think boxer practiced his cheeses and such you are nuts
and casy did do that sort of spontaneously, he tried to kill the overlord with his marines remember? If he had killed it he wouldnt have used scvs to mine.
Totally true. Boxer admitted to this countless times. I don't see how planning and practicing a brilliant strategic move takes away from the coolness of it.
Casy definately has some resemblance to the almighty Lim.
I just wish his TvP would be better, since just like the emperor himself, he isn't much of a macro player and TvP is pretty much about macro usually.
And I agree with ManaBlue, doesn't matter if you practice or prepare some cool micro move, it's cool anyways. Besides I think it's even sweeter if it's carefully planned and tested and ends up winning the game.
This does show there's still room for lots of neat tricks and innovation in Starcraft and it's all not just one big generic macro fest.
On February 07 2007 13:15 JensOfSweden wrote: This does show there's still room for lots of neat tricks and innovation in Starcraft and it's all not just one big generic macro fest.
What if that was the last nice trick to be invented?
On February 07 2007 13:15 JensOfSweden wrote: This does show there's still room for lots of neat tricks and innovation in Starcraft and it's all not just one big generic macro fest.
What if that was the last nice trick to be invented?
On February 07 2007 11:26 Sadist wrote: if anyone doesnt think boxer practiced his cheeses and such you are nuts
and casy did do that sort of spontaneously, he tried to kill the overlord with his marines remember? If he had killed it he wouldnt have used scvs to mine.
Totally true. Boxer admitted to this countless times. I don't see how planning and practicing a brilliant strategic move takes away from the coolness of it.
Indeed. If anything it adds to the coolness because it adds another layer of brilliance.
Yeah, that play was as incredible as you describe. I remember seeing it live and thinking.. "I didn't know you could get bugged vods...", then a second later I realised what he did and my jaw dropped.
i cant understand how some1 can have a terrific tvz and suck at tvp. i just cant get that to my head; TvZ is sooooo much harder to do, with all the micro, macro, unit combos needed. i think casy loves tvz and perhaps dislikes tvp and thats why he's not that good vs p. i think he could own protoss if he really had the will to practice more.
On February 07 2007 06:42 18jotbob wrote: i wouldnt have fell for it, 1st of all scvs only came to expo once, 2nd even if scvs came for 2nd time the time delay inbetween is too long, obviously judging from those id know casy was up to some shit.
damn i was watchign this and i was like "wtf are those scvs doing he didnt build CC OMFG THE OVIE... THE OVIE THE OVIE SHIT JULY BOUGHT IT. THE MOTHERFUCKER BOUGHT IT THE SCVS AINT GOING BACK BITCHES OOOOH SHIT FIREBAT AND MEDIC fuckign nice timing there Casy FUCK GO GO GOG GO RUN THE SHIT INTO JULY OH SHIT GG JULY GG NO SUNK ONE SUNK ONE SUNK AINT GONNA CUT THAT SHIT TWO SUNKS AINT GONA CUT THAT OOOOH SHIT THE DOOMHAMMER IS GONA DROP DROP DROP DROP STIM RUN IN FOCUS FIRE ON SUNK PULL BACK MINERAL FIELD SUPPORT NO FLANK SHIT SUNKEN DROPS LINGS MELT SUNKEN DROPS RUN INTO MAIN MELT THOSE DRONES GGEEEEEGEGEGEGEGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
motherfucking pimp hands down end of discussion
and yea seriously the <50 post noobs need to stfu or else i smell some serious mass nuking
18handjobbob, of course this move wouldn't have worked out on you because you are some fucking newbie, who ALWAYS does three sunkens at his FE, because that's your standard BO that you alwways do. However these guys play at a level which is astronomic compared to your shitty little skill. With your statement you have proved that you understood NOTHING at all about broodwar and competitive play.
Funny, 18-blow-job-bob, you remind me of those poker players who simply cannot be bluffed
Personally I cannot believe my luck in seeing this and Boxer's recent game in such a short timespan, both are just incredible
There is much to be learned by Sun Tzu even today, although much of it is of course included in other sources and modified, modernized and so on. In my view you can find many things Casy did right according to Sun Tzu (that others often don't do).
Let me just quote two of several sentences that could apply to this match: - "Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into a position which makes defeat impossible, and does not miss the moment for defeating the enemy." - "Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak" (I've seen many versions of this one, but never with big/small as mentioned here).
This is from Tactical Dispositions and several other sources. I own a version of the book, but not with me atm.
On February 07 2007 11:30 Mora wrote: anyone who says this play is anything but brilliant is fucking bad at brood war.
if you were even half-decent, you would understand exactly what july was thinking and why he fell for it. Sure, alot of shitty players wouldn't have been fooled, but that's because they're too fucking shitty to know how to play this game.
fucking beautifil maneuver. i haven't been this impressed in a *long* time.
On February 07 2007 06:42 18jotbob wrote: i wouldnt have fell for it, 1st of all scvs only came to expo once, 2nd even if scvs came for 2nd time the time delay inbetween is too long, obviously judging from those id know casy was up to some shit.
On February 07 2007 16:56 nite3 wrote: i cant understand how some1 can have a terrific tvz and suck at tvp. i just cant get that to my head; TvZ is sooooo much harder to do, with all the micro, macro, unit combos needed. i think casy loves tvz and perhaps dislikes tvp and thats why he's not that good vs p. i think he could own protoss if he really had the will to practice more.
On February 07 2007 16:56 nite3 wrote: i cant understand how some1 can have a terrific tvz and suck at tvp. i just cant get that to my head; TvZ is sooooo much harder to do, with all the micro, macro, unit combos needed. i think casy loves tvz and perhaps dislikes tvp and thats why he's not that good vs p. i think he could own protoss if he really had the will to practice more.
yes, that's exactly it.
Bahah. This psychiatrist just cracked Casey's psyche wide open. If only he enjoyed TvP he would be good at it!
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/ManaBlue/Casys_Pimp_Play/1.JPG)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/ManaBlue/Casys_Pimp_Play/2.JPG)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/ManaBlue/Casys_Pimp_Play/3.JPG)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/ManaBlue/Casys_Pimp_Play/4.JPG)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/ManaBlue/Casys_Pimp_Play/5.JPG)
However, much like Ra's hallucinated double recall on GF back in one of the old pimpest plays, the fact that he did it on TV is in itself awesome.
