A recent debate about Pro's and their achievements has led to me making this thread about the implications of greatness and how achievement is measured:
By "which would you rather have" i mean "which would you think is a bigger accomplishment" rather than which would you personally rather have.
Poll: Which would you rather have? (Vote): 1 OSL win, 2 OSL group stage losses (Vote): 3 OSL third places
Which career would you rather have?
This is simplified, I didn't have time to compile a list of achievements, so for the purpose of these polls go with whats stated:
Poll: Which Zerg career? (Vote): Like July: 2 OSL win, lots of OSLs (Vote): Like Yellow: MANY OSL 2nd place, lots of OSLs
Poll: Which Terran Career? (Vote): Like Casy: 1 OSL win, a few of OSLs (Vote): Like Midas: Many OSL semis, lots of OSLs
Poll: Trade 1 OSL Win For... (Vote): 2 Second Places (Vote): 3 Second Places (Vote): 5 Second Places (Vote): 10 Second Places (Vote): 50 Second Places (Vote): Every Second Place Imaginable (Vote): Never
Thanks for your replies and hopefully this will create some good discussion.
Anytime's journey to win his osl championship and his 2nd place finish is probably the most memorable line of series to me.
Boxer's set of games in which he rose to get his first 2 osl titles, not as memorable, just the finals he participated in were.
Casy is equivalent to sync in terms of recognition.(so many similiarites, shitty tvp ftw??) That final was hardly memorable, except the first game in which chojja won, now that was craazy.
You simplify too much, Midas for example was in semis ONCE, how can you make many out of once?
I might as well base my argument on the non-simplified facts. YellOw didn't have many OSL 2nd places, he only got two, plus a couple of third places. YellOw ain't shit compared to July, even if you take account that he personally was maybe the best current Zerg at a certain time he wasn't as good compared to others as July in his prime. July also won a KT KTF Premiere League, so that's 3 Major titles against a bunch of 2nd and 3rd places, not contest at all in my books.
Picking between YellOw's and July's career is easy, July 100%. Between Midas and Casy not as easy, hrm
I would rather be first once in osl, that three times third place. Winning it all is what it matters to me, and I guess you gain more respect. However I do respect players who are consistent, and they will someday win something (Midas, GF).
On January 22 2007 14:07 Red_Dragon wrote: I would rather be first once in osl, that three times third place. Winning it all is what it matters to me, and I guess you gain more respect. However I do respect players who are consistent, and they will someday win something (Midas, GF).
yeah, wins count more i would say. like goodfriend. participations 91241024 times...and nobody on TL seems to like him either, and now that hes sorta shitty tvt ppl here hate him even more- _- you guys are so mean to him ahha.
but as for midas vs casy...i'd go for midas cuz hes liek so fucking good now at all matchupO_O
On January 22 2007 14:07 Red_Dragon wrote: I would rather be first once in osl, that three times third place. Winning it all is what it matters to me, and I guess you gain more respect. However I do respect players who are consistent, and they will someday win something (Midas, GF).
GF won't win anything. Ever.
Midas will however
Oh come on even ChoJJa won something, GF can do it IF he pulls his shit together :D
On January 22 2007 14:05 Carnac wrote: You simplify too much, Midas for example was in semis ONCE, how can you make many out of once?
Twice actually, but your point still stands. I think he was just using him as a random example though.
As for my own opinion, of course I'd rather be champion than consistent, yet I have more respect for someone staying on top for years without actually winning anything than for a player who gets lucky once, wins a big tourney and then disappears completely (hint: Sync -- even though he totally deserved his one OSL).
On January 22 2007 14:14 Hot_Bid wrote: another question i should put up is... how many 2nds would equal one win?
ill do that now
It might be stupid, but I would say none for me. There is really something special to be the best, to reach the top and the first place. Being second, you always know some was better than you ONE MORE TIME. + You get a trophy, and your name is written on champions list. Your picture is added in hall of fame (MSL). I wouldn`t trade that for nothing. Even if I was first only once. Being second 10x would still be great achievement.
The victory is most important. There are so many athletes with great careers that sorrow over never winning a ring. Karl Malone, Dan Marino, Dominique Wilkins,, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Patrick Ewing, Chris Carter, Gary Payton, etc.
On January 22 2007 14:05 Carnac wrote: You simplify too much, Midas for example was in semis ONCE, how can you make many out of once?
Twice actually, but your point still stands. I think he was just using him as a random example though.
As for my own opinion, of course I'd rather be champion than consistent, yet I have more respect for someone staying on top for years without actually winning anything than for a player who gets lucky once, wins a big tourney and then disappears completely (hint: Sync -- even though he totally deserved his one OSL).
Oh, my bad: I was looking at Benny's list in the article section and didn't realize it missed the last OSL and since I was inactive towards BW at the time I missed that one.
Anyway, being a champion is what it's mostly about
Actually "like July" is already almost the ultimate success in the BW World, winning OSL twice is way above any number of 2nd place finishes one can have. After all there are only 5 persons who achieved that as of yet (including one who won 3 times).
On January 22 2007 14:37 Carnac wrote: Actually "like July" is already almost the ultimate success in the BW World, winning OSL twice is way above any number of 2nd place finishes one can have. After all there are only 5 persons who achieved that as of yet (including one who won 3 times).
you'd be surprised how many people don't share that opinion, iirc there was a july vs yellow thread a while back where there were tons of people supporting yellow's side
I find the first and third polls to not come together.
Poll 1. You would rather have one OSL 1st place, then drop off the face of the earth rather than being a consistent force to reckon with in the OSL & MSL.
Poll 3. You would rather choose Midas's career of consistent Starleague appearances, but never acheiving a first place.
good question is that kinda like boxer vs july? in that case the guy that plays at a high level and consistent will always pwn the past winner, im pretty sure about that one.
who the hell voted for yellow, seriously... and Casy's career is just getting going. Once midas wins, then and only then will it be worth voting for his scenario
well you can't really say "once he wins" because i only made it "like midas" because he never actually won a starleague yet, so if he wins one it'll be "like goodfriend" or someone else who hasn't won one
On January 22 2007 14:27 BlackJack wrote: The victory is most important. There are so many athletes with great careers that sorrow over never winning a ring. Karl Malone, Dan Marino, Dominique Wilkins,, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Patrick Ewing, Chris Carter, Gary Payton, etc.
payton contributed to the victory, but i don't think people will remember him as fondly as if he won one in seattle
winning one on the steep decline of your prime years settling for mid-level exceptions on pseudo-allstar teams like the 04 lakers or 06 heat are like the cop out way to get a championship -_-
A big win is always better than many Almosts. I certainly see the argument for Midas over Casy, but one simply cant stay in the semis forever; they need to break out and show people that they can take it to another level.
On January 22 2007 16:22 Locked wrote: if i managed to nab every single second place in all the major starcraft leagues i think people would remember me
i mean if i was trying as hard for first place as i could it would be incredibly frustrating though
as the "never was able to win" rofl
Personally i find more worty 1 win than many participations and not wining, although getting far in tournaments is indeed good achievement. But for the example; who do you remember most; yellow or boxer?
if you win an osl, you can say - i won the most grueling starcraft tournament against the best players in the most avid progaming country in the world. i was, for one tournament, arguably the single best starcraft player in existence.
placing high in many tournaments shows that you're able, but never the champion who gets to taste what winning everything feels like. i would much rather be casy and be ridiculed for being a one-matchup lucky wonder who got good draws, than midas (as much as i love him) who chokes and chokes despite being extremely capable in every matchup.
but on the other side, i find myself having a lot of respect for those of you who picked the consistency. it seems to show more love for starcraft itself, gaming for the skill and art of it all, over glory and recognition.
blah whatever. i'll still think that i'm better than all of you guys with my one osl win against your hundreds of almost-close-nevers.
I voted YellOw. Even though he's never won a Starleague, he's influenced Zerg gameplay more than anyone except maybe [z-zone]byun. July himself said he just copied YellOw's style with some slight changes.
I voted Midas over Casy because Casy can't TvP XD naw, it's 'cause Midas has been around longer and Casy's win was because he had no protosses to fight. Like Silver's 2nd place was because he ONLY had protosses to fight. How strange.
I think what matters the most in the long run is your marketabliity, and hence your pay. Thus winning an osl is better than consistent performances. Yellow is an anomaly though, because he has gained great popularitly through looks and longevity rather than championships....
Nobody remembers 2nd place and down. Even if they do, there's too much of a difference. Besides, it seems like progamers' pay is decided mostly by how much they are liked. As long they aren't complete shit skilled.
I might trade 1st for three~five 2nd places if the finals are epic.
On January 22 2007 20:05 Heen wrote: Champion fo sho.
Nobody remembers 2nd place and down. Even if they do, there's too much of a difference. Besides, it seems like progamers' pay is decided mostly by how much they are liked. As long they aren't complete shit skilled.
I might trade 1st for three~five 2nd places if the finals are epic.
People remember YellOw because he has what? 6-8 second places? I lost count.
I still think he would trade three-five of his second places for a championship. And all of his finals were pretty epic. I especially enjoyed YellOw vs XellOs Olympus 2003. Except for the part where YellOw lost.
Not many people can ever be champion, so if you have this negative "only coming first matters" attitude, you're unlikely to ever be satisfied.
edit: also, as a poker player I'd take "every second place imaginable" in an instant :p.
edit2: it's also possible to win a Starleague and still not be as popular or recognized as a player who never won/hasn't won yet. eg Sync vs. Yellow or Midas.
There's no replacement for being a champion. 2nd place is hard to do, but only confirms that you weren't quite good enough and someone else deserve credit in that tournament over you.
Replace Casy with Xellos circa 2003 and I think the picture becomes clearer. He won a very memorable OSL by beating an in-shape Yellow in a Game 5 clifffhanger. He was already dubbed Perfect for having no weak matchups and was a killer of big names like Boxer and Oov. He won, and then dropped off with many group exits or semi final appearances for the rest of his career in both MSL and OSL. However, he DID win that one championship. Would you trade that for consistently placing 2nd?
On January 24 2007 08:44 Ace wrote: Replace Casy with Xellos circa 2003 and I think the picture becomes clearer. He won a very memorable OSL by beating an in-shape Yellow in a Game 5 clifffhanger. He was already dubbed Perfect for having no weak matchups and was a killer of big names like Boxer and Oov. He won, and then dropped off with many group exits or semi final appearances for the rest of his career in both MSL and OSL. However, he DID win that one championship. Would you trade that for consistently placing 2nd?
I think Xellos is actually an example of a player who isn't particularly well-looked-upon these days despite having won an OSL (at least in the non-Korean progaming fan scene).
A single isolated win with no other success isn't necessarily better than non-winning consistency - Sync isn't more popular or famous than Yellow.
- Merits: Titles weigh in more heavily than consistency here. - Exposure: Consistency yeilds more exposure, which ought to mean you get more fans and money. - Charisma: Even if you win matches, titles and shit, you won't get very popular or make a lot of money if you lack charisma. (sense of star) - Quality: How you actually achieve your wins and your style of playing. (sense of star)
I'd probably take consistency since I'd put the emo boring koreans to shame, and get all the bitches and dough!
Oh, and Mani made a good point. Sync who? (He has one title and only did well for like 1 year, then nothing. Plus he shaved of his powerfuzz )
I would just say that at the end of the day its all about your cash flow. These top players who havent won an OSL are still TOP. They know in their hearts they can compete. Starcraft is just a tumultous platform for competition, you cant always win even if you are next to invincible. 1 OSL win in the grand scheme seems kind of inconsequential to getting a bunch of top 4 finishes, to me. People know who Yellow is, people barely remember Sync. Even Anytime, Casy and Xellos IMO dont come to mind as notable OSL finishers because the finals they won simply werent that noteworthy and they only have won once.
The only thing seperating them from sync RIGHT NOW is that they are still managing to qualify for leagues. So you see one of them and go "oh starleague winner." But seriously if they drop off then its just over for them and no one will give a shit that at one point on some imbalanced gay ass maps(Because OSL maps always are) they managed to overcome what was most likely a stacked as fuck final.
On January 24 2007 08:04 Cpt Obvious wrote: anybody remember the second man on the moon without google'ing him?
Buzz Aldrin. He once punched a conspiracy theorist (of the "moon landing was a hoax" type) in public .
Which proves that public scandal > 2:nd place when it comes to getting remembered.
I was about to vote, but
On January 22 2007 13:55 Hot_Bid wrote: By "which would you rather have" i mean "which would you think is a bigger accomplishment" rather than which would you personally rather have.
made me confused... If you are asking for the bigger accomplishment, why would you formulate the question "which would you rather have"?
I'd prefer a win personally, but three second places, of 16 or 32 players, says a lot more about skill than one single win and two results in the bottom half.
And yes, I do say that luck is involved in who wins a tournament, as in all games... it IS possible to pull of a win versus better players. Otherwise how come Savior isn't 100% for example?
I think the only reason people know about Yellow is because he was an original progamer and has been around for so long, not because of his consistency. People who know Yellow don't necessarily know Goodfriend. I'd personally take one major glory win over consistency. And Sync's win is only overlooked IMO because of the unfortunate timing.
the first poll evens out for me , meaning i don't prefer one over the other unless... all depends in the game play displayed ; i could pick '3 third places' if the player playes like boxer,nal_ra,savior.... vs a turtling 1place i voted july , distinction is made based on skill level ; july is where yellow cant get the last question has no sense ; if i won an osl title its mine , i cant trade it for something else even if i wanted to
IMO the reason yellow was so popular was becasue he had a rivalry with lim yo;; rivalry = most fame imo ie the current rivalry is savior/ra, although both are accomplished players... there are many miniture or lesser known rivalrys.. like savior/midas, sotrk/iris, sea/canata, puasn/midas, oov/savior, nada/much, nada/savior, goodfriend/midas, stork/reach,,,, rivarlies are what pull lots of people to watch certain games, usually spawned from when a lesser known player beats a better known player a couple times, then other player wins again etc.. or when one of the players is in awesome form, and is stopped by a player..
On January 25 2007 07:40 QuietIdiot wrote: No one fucking cares about junwi :[
No finals, One semi. You wonder why? Fuckn Idiot.
Another example is Zeus, many SLs, one title.
But to defend Xellos a bit, he was constantly strong for a very long time. Some of you dismiss him as if he was on fire for just one OSL, you couldn't be more wrong.
I wish people would assess things more objectively when raggin on players and be as subjective as you want in your praises.
On January 24 2007 08:44 Ace wrote: Replace Casy with Xellos circa 2003 and I think the picture becomes clearer. He won a very memorable OSL by beating an in-shape Yellow in a Game 5 clifffhanger. He was already dubbed Perfect for having no weak matchups and was a killer of big names like Boxer and Oov. He won, and then dropped off with many group exits or semi final appearances for the rest of his career in both MSL and OSL. However, he DID win that one championship. Would you trade that for consistently placing 2nd?
I think Xellos is actually an example of a player who isn't particularly well-looked-upon these days despite having won an OSL (at least in the non-Korean progaming fan scene).
A single isolated win with no other success isn't necessarily better than non-winning consistency - Sync isn't more popular or famous than Yellow.
Xellos won another tourney beofre then too, maybe it was a KPGA, he beat intotherain I think on NFZ to win it. Maybe it was one of the TV leagues that went bankrupt or something, I think grrr or elky were doing well in it at the time (probably elky)
On January 24 2007 10:05 Ganfei wrote: I think the only reason people know about Yellow is because he was an original progamer and has been around for so long, not because of his consistency. People who know Yellow don't necessarily know Goodfriend. I'd personally take one major glory win over consistency. And Sync's win is only overlooked IMO because of the unfortunate timing.
Yellow played at a much higher level than GF for a lot longer (relatively higher level of course)
GF cannot compare to yellow, merely qualifying for tourneys means next to nothing. MuMyung qualified for tournaments, so did Crystal[Inca].
A single isolated win with no other success isn't necessarily better than non-winning consistency - Sync isn't more popular or famous than Yellow.
This is so wrong. Do you hav any idea how much fans Yellow have compared to Sync?
Sync hasnt been on the scene in a while, but back when he was playing his best he was a beast, he and themarine were my favorite terrans, But to say sync has more fans (at least in the non korean community nowadays) than yellow is retarded. Most of the newer players nowadays know nothing about 3 years ago and thats too bad. Sync was a fucking monster, his tvt was godly and he was beating Boxer when boxer was at his best.
A single isolated win with no other success isn't necessarily better than non-winning consistency - Sync isn't more popular or famous than Yellow. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is so wrong. Do you hav any idea how much fans Yellow have compared to Sync?
thats wereyo u said sync had more fans than yellow.
The guy above said sync didnt have more fans, and you said he was wrong.
EPT
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