EPTAnd I am talking about highlevel games nothing else. proleague etc. And if so anyone got any VoDs?
Pro ZvZ without mutas? has it ever happened?
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doffe
Sweden636 Posts
And I am talking about highlevel games nothing else. proleague etc. And if so anyone got any VoDs? | ||
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
On October 14 2013 06:17 doffe wrote: Hi, I have never really played BW but I really enjoy watch it. I get that ZvZ is what it is but has there ever been games where people have done and succeded with other strategies then ling, muta scourge? And I am talking about highlevel games nothing else. proleague etc. And if so anyone got any VoDs? Yep. Only lings. Other than that you occasionally have Hive level ZvZs (there's probably a list somewhere) that will have queens, guardians, hydras, ultras, lurkers, and the sort...can't name any off the top of my head but there's probably a list somewhere sorry :\ | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 14 2013 06:17 doffe wrote: Hi, I have never really played BW but I really enjoy watch it. I get that ZvZ is what it is but has there ever been games where people have done and succeded with other strategies then ling, muta scourge? And I am talking about highlevel games nothing else. proleague etc. And if so anyone got any VoDs? Does pre-2004 count ;o | ||
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Facultyadjutant
Sweden1876 Posts
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doffe
Sweden636 Posts
hehe I guess it does yes, honestly I simply would find it fun to watch a few games since it would be like seeing a completly new MU. I've searched a bit already but not super hard. I just figured the people here would know for sure =) | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19230 Posts
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On October 14 2013 07:02 Dental Floss wrote: Towards the end of proleague there were some late game strats being developed. I thought ZvZ was the most interesting matchup to watch because you never knew when a game would reach hive tech. Why a game where two sides reaches a critical mass of Mutalisks but unwilling to commit into a full battle because of the stacking, therefore not know how many mutas does one have. Then you see people going for either hydra force, queens, and/o guardians. Edit: *why = when | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On October 14 2013 07:10 Xiphos wrote: Why a game where two sides reaches a critical mass of Mutalisks but unwilling to commit into a full battle because of the stacking, therefore not know how many mutas does one have. Then you see people going for either hydra force, queens, and/o guardians. I spent two minutes trying to figure this out until I decided you meant when rather than why. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On October 14 2013 07:28 neobowman wrote: I spent two minutes trying to figure this out until I decided you meant when rather than why. Well that's pretty lulzy lol | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
Hydra first used to be viable, and was used by high level players in tournaments, but that was before people learned about mutalisk micro. | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On October 14 2013 07:39 vOdToasT wrote: Hydra first used to be viable, and was used by high level players in tournaments, but that was before people learned about mutalisk micro. Oh? When was this? The 90s? The only well known player I can think of who opened hydra in zvz was tsunami, and his zvz wasn't exactly high level. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On October 14 2013 07:48 Mindcrime wrote: Oh? When was this? The 90s? The only well known player I can think of who opened hydra in zvz was tsunami, and his zvz wasn't exactly high level. Satanik played hydra zvz at WCGs as late as 2007 if I recall. As far as pro games, we have seen games that evolved out of mutaling, but none that start with a hydra strategy (unless you go back to like 2003 and wanna watch Jungle Story games). I have seen burrow ling and I have seen proxy hatch zvz styles. I don't think the question is ever really 'how do I skip muta/ling??' It's how do I get my 3rd safely. Because muta/ling is so mobile, you can justify having 5 drones on minerals and 3 on gas and just doing the damage if your opponent cuts any corners. There's many reasons for this. Some of it is maps. Most of it is the nature of mirror matchups. There is no push to overcome racial imbalance, so players can rely on a mechanical / tactical game instead of trying to break the mold. It's rare for a player to get inspired to want to change things, and the examples I can think of for ZvZ innovators are Great and Zero. Of course other players like Jaedong made innovations within the framework of mutaling zvz, but Great and Zero made many attempts to go beyond it, with Great going so far as to promise it in his interviews. Another problem is that BO advantage is not deciding, but it is significant in ZvZ (and PvP). When you are a pro and you are deciding what to dedicate your practice time to... If you realise one of your matchups is just making sure your mechanics aren't rusty and getting lucky with the dice... That is so much the better for your other two matchups, and no one will blame you for spending more time on them. It's only when we started seeing tonnes of zergs in the ro4 and the finals that players like Great and Zero really got a good reason to try to innovate (with players like Jaedong and Effort and Hydra to defend the old way). I would have liked to see Hive ZvZ go further. Maybe if Great starts playing in SOSPA some day we will see it ;p Hydra vs mutaling is pretty much all mindgames and starsense to be as good at it as Satanik was. It doesn't take advantage of mechanic ability at all, so it's something the top Koreans are probably not going to want to do lol. I think it is tricky in the hands of a player who is really good at it, but I don't know if it'd remain stable if a lot of players did it. Hydra vs hydra zvz would be interesting and probably get to hive tech more reliably. Hydra vs muta zvz is really the epitome of Johnny builds, to borrow an MTG term ;p It's too involved to call a cheese strategy, but it's not stable/easy enough to dedicate yourself to if you are a serious competitor. Proxy hatch and burrowling can never be standard, but they also happen very early in the game so you don't have to practice that much. Hydra ZvZ games are all like 12 minutes long and the pay off only comes at the end. | ||
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Shana
Indonesia1814 Posts
There was a thread at TL that discuss and compile Hive ZvZ, I don't quite remember the title but its "the end of an era" or something like that. | ||
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GtC
United States546 Posts
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On October 14 2013 08:28 GtC wrote: Wasn't there a Pimpest Plays a few years back of 2 zergs who went extreme late game hive tech zvz? Apparently, every zerg unit saw use, even lurkers. this is the game that comes to mind | ||
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hellokitty[hk]
United States1309 Posts
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GtC
United States546 Posts
2006-01-15 - SCCL Season 1 - ToT vs Play - ToT)XiaOzI( vs Play.sataNik on SCCL S1 Rush Hour | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On October 14 2013 06:41 Facultyadjutant wrote: I love how trough 11 years, bw zvz endgame has barely been touched in figuring it out as it ends at muta vs muta and ling vs ling :3 That is the endgame. | ||
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