Anyone have any insider knowledge about why Protoss has been so underrepresented in KCM recently? Not just this season but even back a season or two it seems they struggle to get any A/S class guys to play in it.

Jealous

10401 Posts

January 22 2025 06:09 GMT

#9306

EDIT: Disregard, apologies.

Peeano

Netherlands5979 Posts

January 22 2025 12:43 GMT

#9307

On January 22 2025 11:46 RowdierBob wrote:
Anyone have any insider knowledge about why Protoss has been so underrepresented in KCM recently? Not just this season but even back a season or two it seems they struggle to get any A/S class guys to play in it.

Hmmm?

KCM/Race Survival/2024/5
If you ask me this season looks great so far in terms of players distribution.

Ideas

United States8180 Posts

January 22 2025 14:44 GMT

#9308

I think in particular Snow only played 1 week this season and he's by far the most consistent player in KCM for protoss. But also usually teams will send out 2 A-class players and then 1 b-teamer, but it's been reverse for protoss most weeks this season (Best + 2 b-teamers). Especially looking at the lineup for semifinals, they couldn't even get another A teamer to join Best???

Dustinreyes

2 Posts

January 22 2025 18:34 GMT

#9309

--- Nuked ---

RowdierBob

Australia13531 Posts

January 23 2025 03:59 GMT

#9310

On January 22 2025 21:43 Peeano wrote:

Show nested quote +

Hmmm?

KCM/Race Survival/2024/5
If you ask me this season looks great so far in terms of players distribution.

Here are the past two playoffs lineups from Protoss:

2024/season 5
Tyson
Motive
Best
Huro/teolbo

2024/season 4
Huro
Snow
Motive
Best

2024/season 3
Best
Stork
Huro
Snow

Not godawful lineups but at least two B (or lower) players too. Zerg and Terran always seems to have their best guys (with the odd B teamer).

Just curious if it were simply scheduling issues or if some other reason why P can’t field stronger lineups.

Ideas

United States8180 Posts

January 23 2025 05:10 GMT

#9311

Yea their playoff lineups in particular have been godawful the last few seasons 😔. Crazy that they’re not about to field at least 3 a-class players. Just makes the entire playoffs feel underwhelming.

HOLYBATS

Turkey850 Posts

January 23 2025 08:26 GMT

#9312

Mini Best Snow should be at least on finals.

Weasel-

Canada1556 Posts

January 23 2025 16:26 GMT

#9313

Few questions since I haven't played in a long time:

1) In TvZ, Terran seems to wall at the natural all the time. Why is this (or rather, why was this not done often in the Kespa era)?

2) Likewise in TvP, Terran used to always wall the ramp. I'm guessing they don't need to do it anymore because they just make more marines which can provide other benefits?

3) Why is ZvT always 2hatch muta right now? I remember it has always gone back and forth between 2hatch and 3hatch throughout the matchup's history, but what specifically is it about 2hatch that is good (or 3hatch that is bad) in 2025?

4) In ZvP if Protoss rushes tech to 1base Reaver, how should Zerg defend this? Spire will not be up in time, should Zerg drop a Hydra Den immediately upon seeing 1base and start the movement speed upgrade?

5) In TvT, I don't remember Vulture openers being a thing but now they are very common, what's changed?

lemmata

468 Posts

January 23 2025 16:48 GMT

#9314

clip

FlaShFTW

United States10570 Posts

January 23 2025 18:15 GMT

#9315

On January 24 2025 01:26 Weasel- wrote:
Few questions since I haven't played in a long time:

1) In TvZ, Terran seems to wall at the natural all the time. Why is this (or rather, why was this not done often in the Kespa era)?

2) Likewise in TvP, Terran used to always wall the ramp. I'm guessing they don't need to do it anymore because they just make more marines which can provide other benefits?

3) Why is ZvT always 2hatch muta right now? I remember it has always gone back and forth between 2hatch and 3hatch throughout the matchup's history, but what specifically is it about 2hatch that is good (or 3hatch that is bad) in 2025?

4) In ZvP if Protoss rushes tech to 1base Reaver, how should Zerg defend this? Spire will not be up in time, should Zerg drop a Hydra Den immediately upon seeing 1base and start the movement speed upgrade?

5) In TvT, I don't remember Vulture openers being a thing but now they are very common, what's changed?

1) People did try to wall off at the front for full wall setups, but rarely did they think that having a 1-2 opening gap was ok likely due to being scared of ling floods. But as players got better at defending, they got braver regarding making the natural wall. And also realizing that having the wall up immediately meant they were actually safer from ling floods than no wall.

2) Few factors on this: (i) siege expand being a build meant you didn't need units coming down the ramp early on, so a wall was fine while you get your tank/siege up behind your defenses (ii) players realized that shuttle/recall defense was way harder with a wall because it would bug your units out, (iii) better marine micro against early zealots meant players were not as afraid of no wall.

3) 3 hatch was the main build for a long time with 2h being thought of as an all-in build. But as mining efficiency got better, 2h became a normal build. Also, 3h would auto-lose to 111 builds and also is a disadvantaged build against 5rax. 2h and 2.5h have basically no counters.

4) Zerg may get an early den for anti-corsair typically but otherwise they just buy time for spire to get up. Spire is the best building against any 1 base protoss strategy.

5) 3 fact vulture was still a build back in KeSPA.

Weasel-

Canada1556 Posts

January 24 2025 00:05 GMT

#9316

Thank you for your answers.

On January 24 2025 03:15 FlaShFTW wrote:
3) 3 hatch was the main build for a long time with 2h being thought of as an all-in build. But as mining efficiency got better, 2h became a normal build. Also, 3h would auto-lose to 111 builds and also is a disadvantaged build against 5rax. 2h and 2.5h have basically no counters.

By mining efficiency do you mean stuff like mineral boosting?

On January 24 2025 03:15 FlaShFTW wrote:
4) Zerg may get an early den for anti-corsair typically but otherwise they just buy time for spire to get up. Spire is the best building against any 1 base protoss strategy.

I played a game vs a 1base Protoss whose Reaver/Shuttle were in my base before my Spire finished after I went something like overpool, hatch, hatch, gas. The Reaver just killed whatever few Zerglings I had and the morphing Spire, and I died to his moveout 2-3 mins later. This could have just been because my scouting was really bad as not only was it late but my drone went towards him first but left once I saw no buildings at the natural. If my scouting was better I could have made the Extractor earlier, but the timing still didn't look great. I don't have the replay anymore unfortunately.

TelecoM

United States10888 Posts

January 24 2025 03:50 GMT

#9317

WOW that Lurker move with hold lurkers was unbelievable.