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Replays / Guides

Forum Index > BW General
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Taurent
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Canada401 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-02-16 00:35:34
February 16 2005 00:34 GMT
#1
Anyone else thinking replays and guides are killing the game ? I explain : now you don't even have to think or be any smart to be good at this game. Just watch replays, FPVOD, guides, play some and you can become good... So few people now try hard finding strategies and counters, and when they do find a something good, they do it and the replay will spread everywhere and everybody will do it.
NonYold
Profile Joined April 2004
United States2814 Posts
February 16 2005 00:37 GMT
#2
I think it helps the game by raising the skill level. You can still do things that people can't copy if you're doing something that people can't copy :O For example, NaDa's TvP on LT... nobody can copy that
SolaR-
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
United States2685 Posts
February 16 2005 00:49 GMT
#3
alot of my tvp is influenced by nadas style but i do not COPY it
SojT
Profile Joined February 2004
United States789 Posts
February 16 2005 00:50 GMT
#4
This is the reason most pro leauges don't release replays.
i don't think replays are killing the game rather forcing people to be more creative and in that case it encourages people to play and develope better strats/stuff. So, imho i think that replays/vods/etc help bw to thrive.
=]
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
February 16 2005 00:51 GMT
#5
It's impossible to copy because only people at Nada's level are lazy enough not to cannon their mineral line.
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
HiaTuS.
Profile Joined June 2003
Australia235 Posts
February 16 2005 01:00 GMT
#6
u can try as hard as u can to copy nada, but nobody can pull off his dropship harass with the smoothness he has... because it takes 350 apm and it takes alot of experiance... U can watch as much reps and know build orders but if u dun have the experiance u will find urself asking wat to do next in different situations...
My SC skillz brings da girls to the yard, and their like its better than yoas, dam right its better than yoas, I could teach you, but ill have to charge...
EchoOfRain
Profile Joined November 2004
United States516 Posts
February 16 2005 01:07 GMT
#7
On February 16 2005 09:34 Taurent wrote:
Anyone else thinking replays and guides are killing the game ? I explain : now you don't even have to think or be any smart to be good at this game. Just watch replays, FPVOD, guides, play some and you can become good... So few people now try hard finding strategies and counters, and when they do find a something good, they do it and the replay will spread everywhere and everybody will do it.

Well, to good players that kind of stuff is basics. Starcraft is all about adjustments and how you react to your opponet. This can't cant be taught from replays. You make it sound like you can watch replays and somehow know how to win. It doesnt matter how many Nada replays you watch, you won't be able to play like him without real game expierence. I still see many replays, especially pvz of gosus and while i learn something from them i know that i wouldnt be able to do that. Its best to play with your own style and learn how to win games within your limitations. Newbies who watch replays over and over again and try to copy them often learn even slower than those who never watch replays and just play many games. So no I disagree with you. What it does do is lower the learning curve a great deal. Back when i first started it was very difficult to get better. Now learning the basics is very easy but it isn't any easier to become really good. There's a difference between seeing something, and understanding what you see.
quote
EchoOfRain
Profile Joined November 2004
United States516 Posts
February 16 2005 01:08 GMT
#8
On February 16 2005 09:51 iamke55 wrote:
It's impossible to copy because only people at Nada's level are lazy enough not to cannon their mineral line.

what a stupid comment..--
quote
KorvspaD
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Sweden468 Posts
February 16 2005 01:13 GMT
#9
I find oovs TvP even more amazing...I mean every game he fast expos, his opponent knows its coming, but can't stop it...While Nadas TvP is alot about harass, oov jus out macro his opponent...don't understand how he does that...
for all we could have done and all that could have been...
ras
Profile Joined November 2003
Germany385 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-02-16 01:15:20
February 16 2005 01:14 GMT
#10
the game only get's killed when people stop playing it. replays and stuff only raise the skill level. i think that's a good evolution.
Use the power of mighty GuLaScH!
jtan
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden5891 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-02-16 01:23:07
February 16 2005 01:22 GMT
#11
haha nice thinking, but I still think you have to think a lot.
+ that replays keeps the game alive too
+ that you can keep memories of ur games

But I don't like guides...
Enter a Uh
LazySCV
Profile Blog Joined September 2003
United States2942 Posts
February 16 2005 01:33 GMT
#12
--- Nuked ---
wishterran
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1045 Posts
February 16 2005 01:37 GMT
#13
i think replays keep the game alive. so many communities thrive off of replay sharing and discussing and stuff. plus, you can't just copy what you see in a replay, because the situation is always different. if you do that you will lose pretty badly
Eatme
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
Switzerland3919 Posts
February 16 2005 01:48 GMT
#14
If it was killing the game we would not hang around this forum. I dont know if it's keeping sc alive but it's not killing the game.
SC/BW is still fun and replays did not change that to the negative, at least not for me.
I have the best fucking lawyers in the country including the man they call the Malmis.
Raidern
Profile Joined February 2005
Brazil3811 Posts
February 16 2005 02:17 GMT
#15
well i think replays helps a lot
also, being smart you'll a lot more than a stupid guy
everyday theres something new coming up in BW you know
For the Swarm!
EvilTeletubby
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
Baltimore, USA22258 Posts
February 16 2005 02:25 GMT
#16
On February 16 2005 10:33 LaZyScV wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2005 10:07 EchoOfRain wrote:
On February 16 2005 09:34 Taurent wrote:
Anyone else thinking replays and guides are killing the game ? I explain : now you don't even have to think or be any smart to be good at this game. Just watch replays, FPVOD, guides, play some and you can become good... So few people now try hard finding strategies and counters, and when they do find a something good, they do it and the replay will spread everywhere and everybody will do it.

Well, to good players that kind of stuff is basics. Starcraft is all about adjustments and how you react to your opponet. This can't cant be taught from replays. You make it sound like you can watch replays and somehow know how to win. It doesnt matter how many Nada replays you watch, you won't be able to play like him without real game expierence. I still see many replays, especially pvz of gosus and while i learn something from them i know that i wouldnt be able to do that. Its best to play with your own style and learn how to win games within your limitations. Newbies who watch replays over and over again and try to copy them often learn even slower than those who never watch replays and just play many games. So no I disagree with you. What it does do is lower the learning curve a great deal. Back when i first started it was very difficult to get better. Now learning the basics is very easy but it isn't any easier to become really good. There's a difference between seeing something, and understanding what you see.


Agreed. You don't learn why, how, and when to do certain things from replays. You really only learn how to do the builds, which you don't know how to switch the person you're playing is doing something different than the guy in replay, etc..


Yep...

There is a whole class of people I typically refer to as "repwatchers"... they seem good, they use good BOs, and do lots of standard upper level tricks and what not... but then you get down to it, throw them a curve ball, and they're FUCKED, because all they know is what they've seen from reps. They don't actually understand the game at all, they just know how it's usually played by watching reps. Now you can mistake repwatchers for good players every now and then when they may use a build that just happens to beat yours, but most of them will follow the same builds every game (regardless of positions or what they scout), and it's easy to throw them off by doing something out of the ordinary and unexpected, and they litterally are just lost at what to do next.

Just because someone watches a lot of reps/VODs, doesn't mean they'll be a good player, or even really know what they're doing, because they won't understand WHY they're doing anything.
Moderatorhttp://carbonleaf.yuku.com/topic/408/t/So-I-proposed-at-a-Carbon-Leaf-concert.html ***** RIP Geoff
ieatkids5
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States4628 Posts
February 16 2005 04:21 GMT
#17
I watch reps because I think they're entertaining
Like some people like watching football or basketball games.

Yes, I agree with a lot of what you guys have said in this thread. Reps will only help you learn bo's and other not as important things, but won't teach you to actually play better. You won't know how to do something if your opponent doesn't play like the people who you watch in the replays.
SchOOl_VicTIm
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
Greece2394 Posts
February 16 2005 07:07 GMT
#18
Spreading Starcraft (and generally, duh..) knowledge is no bad thing whatsoever. This way, we get to have some of the experience gosu players have, it helps us broaden our SC-thinking and makes it a lot easier to get past the "newby level" which stays there because you just need to see some thing "in-game". You don't really have to play 1000 games now to grasp things you'll have by watching 50 pro replays. It would also be great for them to be used for training (haven't tried RWA's yet, so I can't say, damn you 56k =// )

I only wish pro's (even retired ones, who don't have the excuse of not having the time to deal with "trivial stuff") would care more about sharing their knowledge, it would only be to the game's and the community benefit.. =/
EvilTeletubby
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
Baltimore, USA22258 Posts
February 16 2005 07:16 GMT
#19
On February 16 2005 16:07 SchOOl_VicTIm wrote:
I only wish pro's (even retired ones, who don't have the excuse of not having the time to deal with "trivial stuff") would care more about sharing their knowledge, it would only be to the game's and the community benefit.. =/


Eh, I think there would be only so much they could tell anyhow. So so so much of this game is based on experience.
Moderatorhttp://carbonleaf.yuku.com/topic/408/t/So-I-proposed-at-a-Carbon-Leaf-concert.html ***** RIP Geoff
Hautamaki
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
Canada1311 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-02-16 08:12:20
February 16 2005 07:41 GMT
#20
EvilTeletubby, ilnp and I agree, it's not that a written guide CAN'T help people, it's that writing a guide to teach someone how to play bw is very difficult and has not been done properly yet. It's the same as writing a book to teach someone history; lots of people know a lot about history, but the people who write text books are guys with PhD's--guys with 7+ years of education and years of experience beyond that. You think your average starcraft gosu who has no background in education, has never worried about teaching anyone but himself, no writing background and no real motivation or desire or paycheck in it is going to either be able to or want to go to that kind of trouble? Sure you can't teach someone handspeed with a guide, and you can't give the guy the benefit of 1000 real games against top competition, but you CAN make the learning process way faster if you write it properly and have someone intelligent and receptive enough. You can make a guide such that if 2 people play 500 games, and one of them read that guide, the guy who read it is gonna learn more and take more away from every match and he's gonna have a serious leg up. It's just that you can't be teaching someone build orders and openings, you can't just tell him that vultures own zealots, you've got to teach him how to teach himself, you've got to be thorough, and you've got to put it in such a way that he will accept the words of experience while still teaching himself. The number 1 reason a person doesn't learn from a guide is that he loses a game and that guide doesn't help him figure out why. If you made a guide that did that, that told him what went wrong and where to improve, that gave him all the tools and showed him how to use them, you'd be able to teach someone to play SC with the written word. That's what I believe anyways.
True learning is not the memorization of knowledge; it is the internalization of patterns.
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
17015 Posts
February 16 2005 08:21 GMT
#21
Hautamaki, you have the best Protoss guide around

I wish you were a Zerg player ;( I think tsu killed himself. That's a bad thing because he helped me a lot when I just started out. If I started with a Zerg guide written by both of you I'd be so much better. Then again, maybe not. But it's still a nice thought.
Moderator
SchOOl_VicTIm
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
Greece2394 Posts
February 16 2005 08:47 GMT
#22
On February 16 2005 17:21 Empyrean wrote:
I think tsu killed himself.


seriously?? :O wtf?
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